St Kilda are the laughing stock of the AFL

[cwrcyn]

The recruiting issue....we'll, we are paying for the sins of Ross Lyon and Chris Pelchen. Elshaug's record is far better than those two, even though he is pilloried on this forum. It was Pelchen who coughed up first round picks for Hickey an Tom Lee. Also, the loss of an early second round pick for Saad and Milera.

[dragit]

The recruiting issue....we'll, we are paying for the sins of Ross Lyon and Chris Pelchen. Elshaug's record is far better than those two, even though he is pilloried on this forum. It was Pelchen who coughed up first round picks for Hickey an Tom Lee. Also, the loss of an early second round pick for Saad and Milera.

We did get pick 25 back with Saad & Milera for pick 20… so probably nothing lost in that trade.

Who is actually responsible for our selections and trades now - Gallagher?

[sunsaint]

(I keep posting against the popular opinion and repeating myself, but I promise this will be my last post on this topic, and my final repeat and recap - I can hear a collective sigh of relief. I just want to see some more balanced and rounded discussions).

Anyway ...
How do you explain the form of Steele, Austin, etc ? Austin last 2 seasons at Port adelaide averaged only 7 possessions per game - he has tripled his output.
We may have been simply outgunned by more skilful teams who have improved their lists relative to us - and have you taken injuries into account?
I think we turned over more players than any other team due to our wholesale injuries this year - something like 34 players? - is that even possible? ... but someone may need to check that to verify.

The coach is hard to read - and there were a couple of seasons where AR's W/L was 50% or better - but the list and how (badly, in my opinion) we've recruited is obvious (to me, anyway).
We may be too focussed on blaming the coach for everything and missing the big picture. There may be other areas that we need to improve in that we're happy to gloss over - and (if this is the case at club level) we may be doomed to repeat what we refuse to see.

Are you sure there are no other areas we may need to really improve in - apart from coaching - and that injuries did not play a part?

In a close competition you probably only need to be 1 or 2 % off, for whatever reason (not just coaching) - and that's all it may take to slide down the ladder.
I've pointed out (on numerous occasions) some flaws that I saw in AR - that he was slow to give some players a go (as was Lyon, etc), which makes me now think that I may not have repeated myself enough, but to blame him for everything is misleading and wrong.
The "new environment" for AR to improve and get back to 50% plus per season, may simply be a lot less injuries - but he could sure use some help from our recruiters - they don't only need to draft, they can also poach elite-skilled midfielders - but they can at least start by focussing on drafting them.
I mean people make shopping lists that they stick to - for things they need at home, F#S!

I dont want to address your very eloquent and well written explanation of your point of view
But I would like to add to the conversation dealing with 4 points
Reasons for Steele & Austin "improvement" under AR
Steele was under a long list of a very deep mid-field brigade at GWS - he simply was starved of opportunity

Austin had a break out 1st year a shocking 2nd year of 2(?) games so averages would be very misleading

Coach in 2018 - are you forgetting the drama of the mid-year apology to players because of the disconnect with him

Whatever the reasons/excuses are for ARs win/loss record - matters little to me - after 5 years the list we have is HIS list regardless of ancillary personnel.

[saintsRrising]

The recruiting issue....we'll, we are paying for the sins of Ross Lyon and Chris Pelchen. Elshaug's record is far better than those two, even though he is pilloried on this forum. It was Pelchen who coughed up first round picks for Hickey an Tom Lee. Also, the loss of an early second round pick for Saad and Milera.

We did get pick 25 back with Saad & Milera for pick 20… so probably nothing lost in that trade.

Who is actually responsible for our selections and trades now - Gallagher?

No he is meant to be on the contract side.

Liberatore is meant to be the main man for recruiting.

However having said that, one article had Liberatore favouring Rozee and Lethlean King with our first pick, and we went King.

[saintsRrising]

The recruiting issue....we'll, we are paying for the sins of Ross Lyon and Chris Pelchen.

I am continually surprised how Bains influence gets skated over. He started before Pelchen, and was there well after. Having a non-football persons may have been good for contracts, but it was not at all good for talent assessment.

[chico2001]

The recruiting issue....we'll, we are paying for the sins of Ross Lyon and Chris Pelchen. Elshaug's record is far better than those two, even though he is pilloried on this forum. It was Pelchen who coughed up first round picks for Hickey an Tom Lee. Also, the loss of an early second round pick for Saad and Milera.

We did get pick 25 back with Saad & Milera for pick 20… so probably nothing lost in that trade.

Who is actually responsible for our selections and trades now - Gallagher?

No he is meant to be on the contract side.

Liberatore is meant to be the main man for recruiting.

However having said that, one article had Liberatore favouring Rozee and Lethlean King with our first pick, and we went King.

Yes, he is the national recruiting manager, interesting that the best value pick he reckons he got was everybodys fave….Jack newnes

[dragit]

The recruiting issue....we'll, we are paying for the sins of Ross Lyon and Chris Pelchen. Elshaug's record is far better than those two, even though he is pilloried on this forum. It was Pelchen who coughed up first round picks for Hickey an Tom Lee. Also, the loss of an early second round pick for Saad and Milera.

We did get pick 25 back with Saad & Milera for pick 20… so probably nothing lost in that trade.

Who is actually responsible for our selections and trades now - Gallagher?

No he is meant to be on the contract side.

Liberatore is meant to be the main man for recruiting.

However having said that, one article had Liberatore favouring Rozee and Lethlean King with our first pick, and we went King.

Okay cheers.

It would be good to know who goes on the spit if smith or rozee become superstars and king doesn't.

They'll probably be all long gone in 4-5 years time anyway so won't care too much.

[Mr Magic]

it wouldn't matter who made the choice or who we eventually decided to pick.
Those looking for validation of their criticism will always find a reason why we chose wrongly.
Conversely those who choose to laud everything we do will always find a justification in who we chose.

Personally I don't believe that every person we employ is either an idiot, incompetent or deliberately trying to destroy our Club from within so I maintain the decisions they ultimately make are based on knowledge they have at that time.
it's relatively simple to criticize/laud those decisions with the benefit of hindsight but unfortunately those decisions have to be made without that benefit.

[samoht]

Austin had a break out 1st year a shocking 2nd year of 2(?) games so averages would be very misleading

How's it misleading?
Austin averaged 7.5 disposals per game over 13 games at Port Adelaide (7.9 possessions per game over 11 games in 2016, followed by 6.5 possessions per game over 2 games in 2017)... so he totalled 101 disposals after 13 games at Port Adelaide.
He's averaging 19.7 disposals per game with us over 7 games .... so it only takes about 5 games at St Kilda for him to get to the same number of possessions it took him 13 games to get to at Port Adelaide, roughly speaking.

So he's delivering roughly 13/5 or 2.6 x the output he was at Port Adelaide.

If we're going to call anything a breakout .... he's having one at St Kilda.

[dragit]

it wouldn't matter who made the choice or who we eventually decided to pick.
Those looking for validation of their criticism will always find a reason why we chose wrongly.
Conversely those who choose to laud everything we do will always find a justification in who we chose.

Personally I don't believe that every person we employ is either an idiot, incompetent or deliberately trying to destroy our Club from within so I maintain the decisions they ultimately make are based on knowledge they have at that time.
it's relatively simple to criticize/laud those decisions with the benefit of hindsight but unfortunately those decisions have to be made without that benefit.

I don't believe our staff are idiots or deliberately trying to destroy the club either, but we have clearly seen some incompetency in our management and recruiting.

If we want to learn form our mistakes we need to have some accountability in the people who are making these decisions, otherwise in 4 years time we'll have a bunch of people pointing at each other as to why we took the wrong player… if they're still even at the club.

Many people felt we needed to invest in midfield talent this year, hindsight will either prove that theory or our decision to go with another (injured) key forward and a mid with serious back issues correct. It wasn't hindsight a few years ago either when the majority of people were concerned that we used a #1 pick on paddy considering his health problems.

Reading John Peakes account of our disastrous drafting period with Ross in charge, I'm interested to know who is ultimately responsible for making the big calls right now with our top end picks. They're absolutely tough decisions to make, but these guys are FT professionals and should absolutely be accountable.

So is Liberatore our guy here or did Lethlean overrule him on Rozee to go with King? I think it's a fair question.

[dragit]

Austin had a break out 1st year a shocking 2nd year of 2(?) games so averages would be very misleading

Austin averaged 7.5 disposals per game over 13 games at Port Adelaide (7.9 possessions per game over 11 games in 2016, followed by 6.5 possessions per game over 2 games in 2017... so he totalled 101 disposals after 13 games at Port Adelaide.
He's averaging 19.7 disposals per game with us over 7 games .... so it only takes about 5 games at St Kilda for him to get to the same number of possessions it took him 13 games to get to at Port Adelaide, roughly speaking.

So he's delivering roughly 13/5 or 2.6 x the output he was at Port Adelaide.

If we're going to call anything a breakout .... he's having one at St Kilda.

I can't believe you continue with this line… you seriously want to credit Richo for Austin coming in
and having 49 possessions and 22 marks in his first 2 games for us?

He had 12 kicks and 7 marks in his second game of AFL footy 3 years ago, the guy can play.

Have you considered that he was asked to be a lock down key back at Port and that's why his numbers are lower?

I'm not going to credit richo for Austin's form and I doubt he would either… the guy only played him when all other options were exhausted via injuries. Only gave him 7 games for the season, despite us having a lot more to gain from him getting experience than Brown. He's 23 and needs to play.

[samoht]

I'm not going to credit richo for Austin's form and I doubt he would either… the guy only played him when all other options were exhausted via injuries. Only gave him 7 games for the season, despite us having a lot more to gain from him getting experience than Brown. He's 23 and needs to play.

No, I don't, either (credit Richo for Austin's form).
But he's not alone - Lyon, for example, stuck steadfastly with his favourites, GT hated Milne, etc.. - and I've criticised AR for his reluctance to give players a go.
This is a flaw he shares with other coaches.

And if you read my posts - and I have to repeat myself again, sorry - I credit the players themselves (mainly) for their development rather than the coach.

I'm just seeking the truth - I just don't accept that AR is the root of all evil and is toxic, etc...
He had a 50% win rate over 2 seasons - and our recruiting leaves a lot to be desired, and has certainly not helped. To me, recruiting is the area we need to get right.
At least, you seem to have a more balanced view of things.

[skeptic]

If we’re talking about development vs recruiting as a whole... the greater number of players have IMO failed to developed, stagnated, or improved briefly and then fell away.

Looking at the players mentioned...
Steele was supposed to become our best mid this year... he had a really mediocre start to the season... was possibly dropped at 1 point of the year IIRC (apologies if incorrect) and only began playing well at the end.

As for Austin... we’ll im not convinced Richo even sees him as best 22, though I personally do.

From the rest...
Hickey and Weller again failed to match their 2016 form
Dunstan and Savage didn’t progress... pbly went backwards after strong finsishes I’m 2017
Newnes didn’t come on
Paddy played more games which was great but suddenly looked like a shaky kick and weak mark
Billings and Acres had similar seasons to 2017
Pierce got games only when Hickey and Longer went down
Sinclair went very backwards...

To be honest, it’s actually easier to go round the other way and look at players that did improve...
Long had a big step up before injury
Marshall and Battle played a few better games
Gresh and Carlisle were consistently amongst our better players
Steven was our best
Clarke looked good for a first season player
Dmac and Lonie looked good at the end

My point to all of this is that if Richo was a good coach with a bad list... I still would expect more improvement even the players weren’t good enough.
Whether it’s Richo himself or on the whole that he didn’t have enough support around him, the overall performance of the list predominantly either dropped or stayed the same

[samoht]

If we’re talking about development vs recruiting as a whole... the greater number of players have IMO failed to developed, stagnated, or improved briefly and then fell away.

Looking at the players mentioned...
Steele was supposed to become our best mid this year... he had a really mediocre start to the season... was possibly dropped at 1 point of the year IIRC (apologies if incorrect) and only began playing well at the end.

As for Austin... we’ll im not convinced Richo even sees him as best 22, though I personally do.

From the rest...
Hickey and Weller again failed to match their 2016 form
Dunstan and Savage didn’t progress... pbly went backwards after strong finsishes I’m 2017
Newnes didn’t come on
Paddy played more games which was great but suddenly looked like a shaky kick and weak mark
Billings and Acres had similar seasons to 2017
Pierce got games only when Hickey and Longer went down
Sinclair went very backwards...

To be honest, it’s actually easier to go round the other way and look at players that did improve...
Long had a big step up before injury
Marshall and Battle played a few better games
Gresh and Carlisle were consistently amongst our better players
Steven was our best
Clarke looked good for a first season player
Dmac and Lonie looked good at the end

My point to all of this is that if Richo was a good coach with a bad list... I still would expect more improvement even the players weren’t good enough.
Whether it’s Richo himself or on the whole that he didn’t have enough support around him, the overall performance of the list predominantly either dropped or stayed the same

Players do reach their "ceiling" - what you see as "stagnating". geary, for instance, is playing to his full potential.
They're not all going to become Dustin Martins. But players who have crossed to us from other clubs have continued to develop - which tells me our environment might not be as toxic as some think.

[dragit]

How do you explain the form of Steele, Austin, etc ?

Okay, so you keep bringing these few players up over and over in threads defending Richardsons coaching and develop, but your answer is that "players develop themselves"?

We'll have to assume that you are just trolling by repeating something that really has no point.

[skeptic]

If we’re talking about development vs recruiting as a whole... the greater number of players have IMO failed to developed, stagnated, or improved briefly and then fell away.

Looking at the players mentioned...
Steele was supposed to become our best mid this year... he had a really mediocre start to the season... was possibly dropped at 1 point of the year IIRC (apologies if incorrect) and only began playing well at the end.

As for Austin... we’ll im not convinced Richo even sees him as best 22, though I personally do.

From the rest...
Hickey and Weller again failed to match their 2016 form
Dunstan and Savage didn’t progress... pbly went backwards after strong finsishes I’m 2017
Newnes didn’t come on
Paddy played more games which was great but suddenly looked like a shaky kick and weak mark
Billings and Acres had similar seasons to 2017
Pierce got games only when Hickey and Longer went down
Sinclair went very backwards...

To be honest, it’s actually easier to go round the other way and look at players that did improve...
Long had a big step up before injury
Marshall and Battle played a few better games
Gresh and Carlisle were consistently amongst our better players
Steven was our best
Clarke looked good for a first season player
Dmac and Lonie looked good at the end

My point to all of this is that if Richo was a good coach with a bad list... I still would expect more improvement even the players weren’t good enough.
Whether it’s Richo himself or on the whole that he didn’t have enough support around him, the overall performance of the list predominantly either dropped or stayed the same

Players do reach their "ceiling" - what you see as "stagnating". geary, for instance, is playing to his full potential.
They're not all going to become Dustin Martins. But players who have crossed to us from other clubs have continued to develop - which tells me our environment might not be as toxic as some think.

That’s fine but I’m not criticising Geary for playing to a consistent standard... he’s one player that hasn’t stagnated. He started, gradually got better and then maintained that form.

Players we got from other clubs... most of which I’ll point out were primed to improve
Longer - not improved
Hickey - one really good season and stagnated
Weller... see above
Brown - maintained form
Austin - marginal improvement at best, not even clear that he is rated as a top 22 player
Steele - gradually improved but hasn’t progressed his game to the next level as consistently as hoped
Bruce - 2 years ago looked like a good key forward, hasn’t reached those heights since but injury played a part
Savage - Not any better with us then he was at the Hawks
Freeman - Cut after he got on the park following a few games where he got stuff all time
Stevens - remained inconsistent

Carlisle, Roberton and Membrey... tick for those 3

5 out of 13 not a great record

[samoht]

If we’re talking about development vs recruiting as a whole... the greater number of players have IMO failed to developed, stagnated, or improved briefly and then fell away.

Looking at the players mentioned...
Steele was supposed to become our best mid this year... he had a really mediocre start to the season... was possibly dropped at 1 point of the year IIRC (apologies if incorrect) and only began playing well at the end.

As for Austin... we’ll im not convinced Richo even sees him as best 22, though I personally do.

From the rest...
Hickey and Weller again failed to match their 2016 form
Dunstan and Savage didn’t progress... pbly went backwards after strong finsishes I’m 2017
Newnes didn’t come on
Paddy played more games which was great but suddenly looked like a shaky kick and weak mark
Billings and Acres had similar seasons to 2017
Pierce got games only when Hickey and Longer went down
Sinclair went very backwards...

To be honest, it’s actually easier to go round the other way and look at players that did improve...
Long had a big step up before injury
Marshall and Battle played a few better games
Gresh and Carlisle were consistently amongst our better players
Steven was our best
Clarke looked good for a first season player
Dmac and Lonie looked good at the end

My point to all of this is that if Richo was a good coach with a bad list... I still would expect more improvement even the players weren’t good enough.
Whether it’s Richo himself or on the whole that he didn’t have enough support around him, the overall performance of the list predominantly either dropped or stayed the same

Players do reach their "ceiling" - what you see as "stagnating". geary, for instance, is playing to his full potential.
They're not all going to become Dustin Martins. But players who have crossed to us from other clubs have continued to develop - which tells me our environment might not be as toxic as some think.

That’s fine but I’m not criticising Geary for playing to a consistent standard... he’s one player that hasn’t stagnated. He started, gradually got better and then maintained that form.

Players we got from other clubs... most of which I’ll point out were primed to improve
Longer - not improved
Hickey - one really good season and stagnated
Weller... see above
Brown - maintained form
Austin - marginal improvement at best, not even clear that he is rated as a top 22 player
Steele - gradually improved but hasn’t progressed his game to the next level as consistently as hoped
Bruce - 2 years ago looked like a good key forward, hasn’t reached those heights since but injury played a part
Savage - Not any better with us then he was at the Hawks
Freeman - Cut after he got on the park following a few games where he got stuff all time
Stevens - remained inconsistent

Carlisle, Roberton and Membrey... tick for those 3

5 out of 13 not a great record

Let's agree to respectfully disagree - it really is open to interpretation, it's not as clearcut as you think - and our biases do come into play.

Austin's 160% addditional improvement (in his disposal stats) since crossing to St Kilda -- you might see it as marginal, but I certainly don't - and i think it shows your bias (no offence).
Our recruiting on the other hand ..it should be pretty obvious that it's not up to sctratch - or is this open to interpretation??
dragit ... I'm not even going to bother responding to your troll remark. Yes, I believe that players develop themselves by and large, and they've managed to do that at St Kilda.
I'm not defending Richo's coaching - but I'm not putting it down on the balance of the evidence, either.

[sunsaint]

Austin had a break out 1st year a shocking 2nd year of 2(?) games so averages would be very misleading

How's it misleading?

If we're going to call anything a breakout .... he's having one at St Kilda.

Pretty simple - the averages are misleading
This kid can play - after breaking into the side in his first year he played all games until breaking his leg
And his stats were ok given the side he was in
That's not bad for any first year player but you would also expect him to improve as a 3rd year player
If I wanted to be really cheeky I might say given the year the saints had in 2018 any Backman stats might be slightly exaggerated.
If you want to credit Richo then cho be it
But I'm saying this kid can play and I expect him to be the cornerstone of our defense by his 6th year

[derby Street]

Austin had a break out 1st year a shocking 2nd year of 2(?) games so averages would be very misleading

Austin averaged 7.5 disposals per game over 13 games at Port Adelaide (7.9 possessions per game over 11 games in 2016, followed by 6.5 possessions per game over 2 games in 2017... so he totalled 101 disposals after 13 games at Port Adelaide.
He's averaging 19.7 disposals per game with us over 7 games .... so it only takes about 5 games at St Kilda for him to get to the same number of possessions it took him 13 games to get to at Port Adelaide, roughly speaking.

So he's delivering roughly 13/5 or 2.6 x the output he was at Port Adelaide.

If we're going to call anything a breakout .... he's having one at St Kilda.

I can't believe you continue with this line… you seriously want to credit Richo for Austin coming in
and having 49 possessions and 22 marks in his first 2 games for us?

He had 12 kicks and 7 marks in his second game of AFL footy 3 years ago, the guy can play.

Have you considered that he was asked to be a lock down key back at Port and that's why his numbers are lower?

I'm not going to credit richo for Austin's form and I doubt he would either… the guy only played him when all other options were exhausted via injuries. Only gave him 7 games for the season, despite us having a lot more to gain from him getting experience than Brown. He's 23 and needs to play.

Well everyone is quite happy to blame Richo for any player whose form has dropped off. You can't have it both ways - and I am certainly not saying that he can be given credit for Austins form , not that it was anything outstanding. But he did show something

[David-Lee]

There's no guarantee that any new young recruit will meet expectations- we need to give it time. No good having class midfielders who kick to the forwards who get outmarked by the opposition. There is just as much case for getting class in the midfield as there is getting a quality big forward.

This!

Unfortunately this is we're at. No class fwds and very few class mids. So what to do? Pick the best of either category which comes up first. I'm very happy with the selection. Disappointed that things didn't work out with Hugh and disappointed so far with Patty, but we push on. Hopefully snag a quality mid later in draft.

This is the ISSUE!
WE DID NOT pick the best available class mids, as s matter of FACT the very best midfielder with in the VFL we passed right by for someone with half as many clearances, inside 50's and possessions....because the guy we picked can scoop a ball off the grass and runs quick.

[skeptic]

If we’re talking about development vs recruiting as a whole... the greater number of players have IMO failed to developed, stagnated, or improved briefly and then fell away.

Looking at the players mentioned...
Steele was supposed to become our best mid this year... he had a really mediocre start to the season... was possibly dropped at 1 point of the year IIRC (apologies if incorrect) and only began playing well at the end.

As for Austin... we’ll im not convinced Richo even sees him as best 22, though I personally do.

From the rest...
Hickey and Weller again failed to match their 2016 form
Dunstan and Savage didn’t progress... pbly went backwards after strong finsishes I’m 2017
Newnes didn’t come on
Paddy played more games which was great but suddenly looked like a shaky kick and weak mark
Billings and Acres had similar seasons to 2017
Pierce got games only when Hickey and Longer went down
Sinclair went very backwards...

To be honest, it’s actually easier to go round the other way and look at players that did improve...
Long had a big step up before injury
Marshall and Battle played a few better games
Gresh and Carlisle were consistently amongst our better players
Steven was our best
Clarke looked good for a first season player
Dmac and Lonie looked good at the end

My point to all of this is that if Richo was a good coach with a bad list... I still would expect more improvement even the players weren’t good enough.
Whether it’s Richo himself or on the whole that he didn’t have enough support around him, the overall performance of the list predominantly either dropped or stayed the same

Players do reach their "ceiling" - what you see as "stagnating". geary, for instance, is playing to his full potential.
They're not all going to become Dustin Martins. But players who have crossed to us from other clubs have continued to develop - which tells me our environment might not be as toxic as some think.

That’s fine but I’m not criticising Geary for playing to a consistent standard... he’s one player that hasn’t stagnated. He started, gradually got better and then maintained that form.

Players we got from other clubs... most of which I’ll point out were primed to improve
Longer - not improved
Hickey - one really good season and stagnated
Weller... see above
Brown - maintained form
Austin - marginal improvement at best, not even clear that he is rated as a top 22 player
Steele - gradually improved but hasn’t progressed his game to the next level as consistently as hoped
Bruce - 2 years ago looked like a good key forward, hasn’t reached those heights since but injury played a part
Savage - Not any better with us then he was at the Hawks
Freeman - Cut after he got on the park following a few games where he got stuff all time
Stevens - remained inconsistent

Carlisle, Roberton and Membrey... tick for those 3

5 out of 13 not a great record

Let's agree to respectfully disagree - it really is open to interpretation, it's not as clearcut as you think - and our biases do come into play.

Austin's 160% addditional improvement (in his disposal stats) since crossing to St Kilda -- you might see it as marginal, but I certainly don't - and i think it shows your bias (no offence).
Our recruiting on the other hand ..it should be pretty obvious that it's not up to sctratch - or is this open to interpretation??
dragit ... I'm not even going to bother responding to your troll remark. Yes, I believe that players develop themselves by and large, and they've managed to do that at St Kilda.
I'm not defending Richo's coaching - but I'm not putting it down on the balance of the evidence, either.

Just to be really clear. I rate Austin. I really like the kid.

If it was up to me, I’d have him in the team as a third tall defender that works to use his fitness to exploit his opponent on the rebound.

Richo appears to have him earmarked as FB.

So here are my questions...
Do you think he starts ahead of Brown in 2019?
Would he have played as many games in 2018 if Brown wasn’t injured?


And FWIW, though we differ in views, conversations with you are always respectful and it’s what this forum should be so no offence caused

[samoht]

G'day, skeptic.

Do you think he starts ahead of Brown in 2019?

We also have Roberton to come back (I hope so, anyway). I don't think we can play all 4 tall defenders (there's Carlisle too).
We could probably play Brown ad-hoc on occassions, say a half a dozen games, if we're worried about the big-bodied forwards, but you will lose rebound with Brown (I agree with you there).
All our tall forwards, except for Brown, play as third tall forwards (to intercept and provide rebound) - so, we probably have 3 of them, in a way?

Would he (Austin) have played as many games in 2018 if Brown wasn’t injured?

Your guess is as good as mine.
Who knows? Maybe not (it was only his first year with us, and he hadn't set the world on fire in his 2 seasons at PA) - but, often, that's how players get a break (following an injury to a regular player). And when they do, they need to make the most of it - and Austin has. All credit to Austin.

And FWIW, though we differ in views, conversations with you are always respectful and it’s what this forum should be so no offence caused.

It's worth a lot to me. Thank you. Robust discussion with respect (that's what I aim for and appreciate in others). It would be a boring, plain, vanilla world with no discussion if we all held the same views; we'd be going around nodding, grinning and posting thumbs-up all day.

[ListManager]

We would have been a laughing stock had we not taken this kid, who many rate the best in the draft.

He’s athletic, runs like Riewoldt and is a giant with freakish attributes. It would have been like Richmond missing Franklin & Roughead, for what? Bayley Smith or Rozee? Smith and insider and half back. Sound familiar?

The kid’s a beast.

I hope you're right LL. Me personally I would not have risked pick 4 for a kid coming off a knee reco. Nothing against the kid by the way.