The Coach or the List?

[Johnny Member]

I'm perfectly fine criticising game plans and especially our board and administration BUT our players are taboo.
It's hard enough playing this elite game that ALL SUPPORTERS should never vilify any of them in a public forum. Privately fine but I can tell you many of them are addicted to social media and unfortunately I assume many of them would read comments by many of the unwashed on this site.

Come on, that's just ridiculous.


You don't think supporters (or 'consumers' as the AFL call us), are within their rights to critique the performance of players??


Seriously?

If you don't get it then you don't get it.
When player criticism extends to "they shouldn't be getting a game" ect then yeah I'm serious.
Trawl back through the criticism on this site of Paddy, Gibbo, Mav and Gears in particular and if you think that's fine - go support another club!

But that's different to "our players are taboo".

It's no different to someone paying 15 bucks to see a movie and critiquing the actors' performance in it.

[skeptic]

I'm perfectly fine criticising game plans and especially our board and administration BUT our players are taboo.
It's hard enough playing this elite game that ALL SUPPORTERS should never vilify any of them in a public forum. Privately fine but I can tell you many of them are addicted to social media and unfortunately I assume many of them would read comments by many of the unwashed on this site.

Come on, that's just ridiculous.


You don't think supporters (or 'consumers' as the AFL call us), are within their rights to critique the performance of players??


Seriously?

If you don't get it then you don't get it.
When player criticism extends to "they shouldn't be getting a game" ect then yeah I'm serious.
Trawl back through the criticism on this site of Paddy, Gibbo, Mav and Gears in particular and if you think that's fine - go support another club!

But that's different to "our players are taboo".

It's no different to someone paying 15 bucks to see a movie and critiquing the actors' performance in it.

Am I correct in that I think what Linton means is that saying player x played poorly or needs to work on this is one thing but saying that player x is terrible/should be delisted is another?

Otherwise critiquing is what a site like this is about

[Johnny Member]

Am I correct in that I think what Linton means is that saying player x played poorly or needs to work on this is one thing but saying that player x is terrible/should be delisted is another?

Otherwise critiquing is what a site like this is about

I would hope so.

However it seemed to bob up as a reply to a post that appeared to be a fairly run of the mill critique of a player's ability.

[lintonstreet]

I'm perfectly fine criticising game plans and especially our board and administration BUT our players are taboo.
It's hard enough playing this elite game that ALL SUPPORTERS should never vilify any of them in a public forum. Privately fine but I can tell you many of them are addicted to social media and unfortunately I assume many of them would read comments by many of the unwashed on this site.

Come on, that's just ridiculous.


You don't think supporters (or 'consumers' as the AFL call us), are within their rights to critique the performance of players??


Seriously?

If you don't get it then you don't get it.
When player criticism extends to "they shouldn't be getting a game" ect then yeah I'm serious.
Trawl back through the criticism on this site of Paddy, Gibbo, Mav and Gears in particular and if you think that's fine - go support another club!

But that's different to "our players are taboo".

It's no different to someone paying 15 bucks to see a movie and critiquing the actors' performance in it.

Its completely different if you consider yourself Saintly.
A true saint knows the line when critiquing a present player in a public forum.
A true saint doesn't eat their own.
Too many times on this site are present players flogged.
Anyway I'm tired of trying to make my point - some supporters will never change their public voice

[Johnny Member]

I'm perfectly fine criticising game plans and especially our board and administration BUT our players are taboo.
It's hard enough playing this elite game that ALL SUPPORTERS should never vilify any of them in a public forum. Privately fine but I can tell you many of them are addicted to social media and unfortunately I assume many of them would read comments by many of the unwashed on this site.

Come on, that's just ridiculous.


You don't think supporters (or 'consumers' as the AFL call us), are within their rights to critique the performance of players??


Seriously?

If you don't get it then you don't get it.
When player criticism extends to "they shouldn't be getting a game" ect then yeah I'm serious.
Trawl back through the criticism on this site of Paddy, Gibbo, Mav and Gears in particular and if you think that's fine - go support another club!

But that's different to "our players are taboo".

It's no different to someone paying 15 bucks to see a movie and critiquing the actors' performance in it.

Its completely different if you consider yourself Saintly.
A true saint knows the line when critiquing a present player in a public forum.
A true saint doesn't eat their own.
Too many times on this site are present players flogged.
Anyway I'm tired of trying to make my point - some supporters will never change their public voice

With all due respect, I simply don't 'consume the product' (as the AFL put it) like that.

[White Winmar]

Look up the Kruger-Dunning effect, JM. It could be life changing for you.

Ok, but only if you do some homework into 'highly sensitive people'.


Seriously man, your reactions to opposing opinions is pretty unusual.

Only your baseless ones. Nothing unusual in that. Plenty of others on here are sensitive to your peculiar opinions. Thanks for the advice though. Coming from you, I'll be sure to ignore it.

[White Winmar]

I'm perfectly fine criticising game plans and especially our board and administration BUT our players are taboo.
It's hard enough playing this elite game that ALL SUPPORTERS should never vilify any of them in a public forum. Privately fine but I can tell you many of them are addicted to social media and unfortunately I assume many of them would read comments by many of the unwashed on this site.

Come on, that's just ridiculous.


You don't think supporters (or 'consumers' as the AFL call us), are within their rights to critique the performance of players??


Seriously?

If you don't get it then you don't get it.
When player criticism extends to "they shouldn't be getting a game" ect then yeah I'm serious.
Trawl back through the criticism on this site of Paddy, Gibbo, Mav and Gears in particular and if you think that's fine - go support another club!

But that's different to "our players are taboo".

It's no different to someone paying 15 bucks to see a movie and critiquing the actors' performance in it.

Am I correct in that I think what Linton means is that saying player x played poorly or needs to work on this is one thing but saying that player x is terrible/should be delisted is another?

Otherwise critiquing is what a site like this is about

Critiquing a player after a poor performance is part of what the forum is about. Writing players off as being terrible, overrated, useless, never make it, etc. is not. Especially in a week where someone like Newnes was clearly our best player. That is bizarre. At least wait until he plays a number of stinkers in a row and gets dropped. 35 touches at 83% efficiency and 7 tackles this week and 71 votes on this forum. He has probably been our most consistent player over the past three years. Also labelling him a poor decision maker and has suspect disposal are also claims that have not been backed by any evidence. His career stats would suggest he is very proficient in those areas. You don't go at 83% if your disposal and decision making are poor. His career average hovers around 74%. Hardly shabby and above average at least. If you're going to bag someone as not being up to it, at least provide some evidence, other than your confirmation bias riddled opinion.

[Johnny Member]

I'm perfectly fine criticising game plans and especially our board and administration BUT our players are taboo.
It's hard enough playing this elite game that ALL SUPPORTERS should never vilify any of them in a public forum. Privately fine but I can tell you many of them are addicted to social media and unfortunately I assume many of them would read comments by many of the unwashed on this site.

Come on, that's just ridiculous.


You don't think supporters (or 'consumers' as the AFL call us), are within their rights to critique the performance of players??


Seriously?

If you don't get it then you don't get it.
When player criticism extends to "they shouldn't be getting a game" ect then yeah I'm serious.
Trawl back through the criticism on this site of Paddy, Gibbo, Mav and Gears in particular and if you think that's fine - go support another club!

But that's different to "our players are taboo".

It's no different to someone paying 15 bucks to see a movie and critiquing the actors' performance in it.

Am I correct in that I think what Linton means is that saying player x played poorly or needs to work on this is one thing but saying that player x is terrible/should be delisted is another?

Otherwise critiquing is what a site like this is about

Critiquing a player after a poor performance is part of what the forum is about. Writing players off as being terrible, overrated, useless, never make it, etc. is not. Especially in a week where someone like Newnes was clearly our best player. That is bizarre. At least wait until he plays a number of stinkers in a row and gets dropped. 35 touches at 83% efficiency and 7 tackles this week and 71 votes on this forum. He has probably been our most consistent player over the past three years. Also labelling him a poor decision maker and has suspect disposal are also claims that have not been backed by any evidence. His career stats would suggest he is very proficient in those areas. You don't go at 83% if your disposal and decision making are poor. His career average hovers around 74%. Hardly shabby and above average at least. If you're going to bag someone as not being up to it, at least provide some evidence, other than your confirmation bias riddled opinion.

Are you aware of what the 83% Efficiency actually means?


And I dont actually remember saying he wasn't up to it.

[Johnny Member]

Look up the Kruger-Dunning effect, JM. It could be life changing for you.

Ok, but only if you do some homework into 'highly sensitive people'.


Seriously man, your reactions to opposing opinions is pretty unusual.

Only your baseless ones. Nothing unusual in that. Plenty of others on here are sensitive to your peculiar opinions. Thanks for the advice though. Coming from you, I'll be sure to ignore it.

Why would you have an extreme reaction to someone's opinion?

[Johnny Member]

Critiquing a player after a poor performance is part of what the forum is about. Writing players off as being terrible, overrated, useless, never make it, etc. is not. Especially in a week where someone like Newnes was clearly our best player. That is bizarre. At least wait until he plays a number of stinkers in a row and gets dropped. 35 touches at 83% efficiency and 7 tackles this week and 71 votes on this forum. He has probably been our most consistent player over the past three years. Also labelling him a poor decision maker and has suspect disposal are also claims that have not been backed by any evidence. His career stats would suggest he is very proficient in those areas. You don't go at 83% if your disposal and decision making are poor. His career average hovers around 74%. Hardly shabby and above average at least. If you're going to bag someone as not being up to it, at least provide some evidence, other than your confirmation bias riddled opinion.

Although stats aren’t everything, if we now need to ‘prove’ our opinions (I’m sure the irony of that sentence is not lost on everyone) I’d suggest the below figures strongly suggest that to say Newnes is an A-Grader, is overrating him.


But first, just to be clear, this is what I actually said about Newnes:

"Newnes is closer to D grade than he is to A-grade. He's so overrated by Saints fans it isn't funny. "

"His decision making is awful."

"And his possessions dont hurt one bit."

"I don't rate him."

"Dont get me wrong, he's not completely hopeless."

"But he's far from being a star. "

"Newnes is overrated by most Saints fans"

"Don't get me wrong, I like Newnes. He tries hard, is pretty tough and is durable."

"He's a reasonable defender - but a terrible on-baller."


Hardly shocking and earth shattering stuff I'd have thought.


But anyway...

He’s played 100 games – and hasn’t polled a single Brownlow vote.
He’s 70th in the comp for Disposals.
He’s not in our top 15 for Effective Disposals. Considering how appalling our ball use is, that’s not a good sign for him!
He’s 75th in the comp for Effective Disposals!.
He’s our 2nd top for Clangers.
He’s our equal 2nd for Frees Against.
He’s our 7th worst for Goal Kicking Efficiency
He’s not in our top 15 for Goal Assists.
He’s not in our top 10 for Inside 50s
He’s 16th for Disposal Efficiency with only 72.4%.
He’s not in the top 100 in the comp for Disposal Efficiency!

The stats don’t paint the picture of an A-grader to me.

And unfortunately, what the above stats don’t tell us – is his decision making. If you have a good option, but ignore it and instead kick 40m+ to a 50/50 contest – that counts as an Effective Disposal. Even though it was a gross f*** up for the team, it counts as an Effective Disposal and adds to your stats in both the Effective Disposals and Disposal Efficiency. And this is the area in which I’m most critical of Newnes. Ha takes the wrong option far too often.

So as bad as his efficiency stats already are, if these errors in judgement were also being counted also (which they should be) they’d be far, far worse!


So to summarise, Newnes tries hard and is a reasonable defender. But he is nowhere near A-Grade. Not even close. Hence, as many Saints fans see him as such – he is overrated.

To use the fact that he’s been one of our most consistent players over the past couple of years is utter folly. We finished 9th in his first year, 16th in his second year, 18th in his third year, 14th in his fourth year and 9th in his fifth year. Yet we’re beating our chests because he’s been one of our best?? Please. We’ve hardly been a bench mark.

The only other thing more ludicrous than that argument is that he’s in our leadership group!! Have you seen our leadership group? Mav Weller is in it FFS! And Geary is our captain! With all due respect to those guys, we're not exactly brimming with leaders down there at Seaford.


As I’ve said earlier, I like Newnes. He has a crack. But he’s very overrated by most Saints fans.

[lintonstreet]

Newnesy is a star and his effort and courage is second to none.

[Johnny Member]

Newnesy is a star and his effort and courage is second to none.

Effort and courage yes.

But dude, he's no star.

[White Winmar]

Given there are 400 players out there every week, 70th place is hardly poor. Well above average I would've thought. Not in the top 15 for goal assists? Well, if you knew anything about our side's structure, he spends most of his time in defence. Goal kicking efficiency? Seventh worst? Again plays in defence and rarely gets a go near the big sticks. Still sneaks a few, in case you missed them. I notice you failed to mention he's sixth on our list for disposals and sixth for effective disposals. Pretty good for a bloke who plays in defence with the odd brief run in the midfield. I trust you forgot about the stats that didn't suit your argument, rather than deliberately leaving them out? You wouldn't do that, would you?

[lintonstreet]

Newnesy is a star and his effort and courage is second to none.

Effort and courage yes.

But dude, he's no star.

I guess he was just lucky to finish top 5 last year in our B&F.......
When you say saints fans overrate him, I'm guessing you also think so do our coaching staff.
But hang on do you know something from your stats that they could possibly be missing?

[Johnny Member]

Given there are 400 players out there every week, 70th place is hardly poor. Well above average I would've thought. Not in the top 15 for goal assists? Well, if you knew anything about our side's structure, he spends most of his time in defence. Goal kicking efficiency? Seventh worst? Again plays in defence and rarely gets a go near the big sticks. Still sneaks a few, in case you missed them. I notice you failed to mention he's sixth on our list for disposals and sixth for effective disposals. Pretty good for a bloke who plays in defence with the odd brief run in the midfield. I trust you forgot about the stats that didn't suit your argument, rather than deliberately leaving them out? You wouldn't do that, would you?

?

So you're saying he's A-_Grade based on being 6th for Effective Disposals in a team that has won 5 games and is 11th on the ladder?

Seriously?

[Johnny Member]

Newnesy is a star and his effort and courage is second to none.

Effort and courage yes.

But dude, he's no star.

I guess he was just lucky to finish top 5 last year in our B&F.......
When you say saints fans overrate him, I'm guessing you also think so do our coaching staff.
But hang on do you know something from your stats that they could possibly be missing?

5th in the B&F in a team that finishes 9th makes him a star? Really?

[lintonstreet]

Newnesy is a star and his effort and courage is second to none.

Effort and courage yes.

But dude, he's no star.

I guess he was just lucky to finish top 5 last year in our B&F.......
When you say saints fans overrate him, I'm guessing you also think so do our coaching staff.
But hang on do you know something from your stats that they could possibly be missing?

5th in the B&F in a team that finishes 9th makes him a star? Really?

Newnesy is a star and his effort and courage is second to none.

Effort and courage yes.

But dude, he's no star.

I guess he was just lucky to finish top 5 last year in our B&F.......
When you say saints fans overrate him, I'm guessing you also think so do our coaching staff.
But hang on do you know something from your stats that they could possibly be missing?

5th in the B&F in a team that finishes 9th makes him a star? Really?

Are you sure you barrack for the Saints?
In my eyes yes he's a star!
He will finish top 5 again this year. Why? Because he's a star!
I and thousands of Saints love his effort and hardness.
He's consistently in our best players but again through your lens I guess you only rate our top 4 - if that?

[Jacks Back]

Newnesy is a star and his effort and courage is second to none.

Effort and courage yes.

But dude, he's no star.

I guess he was just lucky to finish top 5 last year in our B&F.......
When you say saints fans overrate him, I'm guessing you also think so do our coaching staff.
But hang on do you know something from your stats that they could possibly be missing?

5th in the B&F in a team that finishes 9th makes him a star? Really?

Newnesy is a star and his effort and courage is second to none.

Effort and courage yes.

But dude, he's no star.

I guess he was just lucky to finish top 5 last year in our B&F.......
When you say saints fans overrate him, I'm guessing you also think so do our coaching staff.
But hang on do you know something from your stats that they could possibly be missing?

5th in the B&F in a team that finishes 9th makes him a star? Really?

Are you sure you barrack for the Saints?
In my eyes yes he's a star!
He will finish top 5 again this year. Why? Because he's a star!
I and thousands of Saints love his effort and hardness.
He's consistently in our best players but again through your lens I guess you only rate our top 4 - if that?

Why is everyone feeding this poster. johnny member is obviously a troll.

[shrodes]

He’s not in our top 15 for Effective Disposals. Considering how appalling our ball use is, that’s not a good sign for him!
He’s 75th in the comp for Effective Disposals!.

I may be reading this wrong, but does this mean our top 15 are in the top 75 in the comp for effective disposals?

[Johnny Member]

He’s not in our top 15 for Effective Disposals. Considering how appalling our ball use is, that’s not a good sign for him!
He’s 75th in the comp for Effective Disposals!.

I may be reading this wrong, but does this mean our top 15 are in the top 75 in the comp for effective disposals?

No. That's a bit of a typo.

He's 75th for total Effective Disposals in the Comp (ie. he's had the 75th most effective disposals in the comp).

He's not in the top 100 in the comp for Disposal Efficiency % (ie. the % of his disposals that are effective).

He's 16th at our club for Disposal Efficiency %.

He's 6th at our club for Total Effective Disposals.


And as per the other post however, an Effective Disposal actually includes kicks that are 40m+ to a 50-50 contest! So they fudge the figures of guys that kick the ball long.

If you have a guy free 30m out from goal on his own - but you ignore him and instead kick longer to a 50-50 at the top of the goal square - it counts as Effective! If you slam it onto your boot instead of handballing to a runner through the corridor and it wobbles downfield to a 2 on 2 and gets punched over the line - it counts as Effective.

So it's a dud stat if you're using it to prove a guy uses the ball well (or refute that he doesn't). It doesn't indicate that at all.

Especially if it's a long kicking player, as almost all of their kicks unless a genuine 'clanger' will go down as Effective. Which of course is not a true refection.

[White Winmar]

Newnesy is a star and his effort and courage is second to none.

Effort and courage yes.

But dude, he's no star.

I guess he was just lucky to finish top 5 last year in our B&F.......
When you say saints fans overrate him, I'm guessing you also think so do our coaching staff.
But hang on do you know something from your stats that they could possibly be missing?

5th in the B&F in a team that finishes 9th makes him a star? Really?

Newnesy is a star and his effort and courage is second to none.

Effort and courage yes.

But dude, he's no star.

I guess he was just lucky to finish top 5 last year in our B&F.......
When you say saints fans overrate him, I'm guessing you also think so do our coaching staff.
But hang on do you know something from your stats that they could possibly be missing?

5th in the B&F in a team that finishes 9th makes him a star? Really?

Are you sure you barrack for the Saints?
In my eyes yes he's a star!
He will finish top 5 again this year. Why? Because he's a star!
I and thousands of Saints love his effort and hardness.
He's consistently in our best players but again through your lens I guess you only rate our top 4 - if that?

Why is everyone feeding this poster. johnny member is obviously a troll.

Thanks, JB. I wasn't going to state it out of respect to the mods, but I'm glad I'm not the only one. I've ignored his drivel for a while, but this latest post is so much crap, I drew the line. Follow his posts. They are mainly designed to inflame, brain farts with no supporting evidence or logic. The clincher is how often he contradicts himself, sometimes in the same thread! Then the defensive nonsense and abuse comes out when challenged. If it sounds like a troll, posts like a troll, and acts like a troll, it probably is a troll.

[Johnny Member]

Thanks, JB. I wasn't going to state it out of respect to the mods, but I'm glad I'm not the only one. I've ignored his drivel for a while, but this latest post is so much crap, I drew the line. Follow his posts. They are mainly designed to inflame, brain farts with no supporting evidence or logic. The clincher is how often he contradicts himself, sometimes in the same thread! Then the defensive nonsense and abuse comes out when challenged. If it sounds like a troll, posts like a troll, and acts like a troll, it probably is a troll.

Isn't this PM sort of stuff?

Do you really need to bring petty stuff like this to the forum?


If you want to have a whine about someone, surely it's better for everyone if it's done via PM?

[White Winmar]

Just my opinion. Just ignore it.

[rodgerfox]

O.k. Let's get real here. We were poor on Saturday and the previous Saturday. Adelaide was poor against North and Melbourne in fact. Sydney was poor in the first few rounds. Hawthorn were poor against us and the GC. You know if anyone thought we were certainties for the Grand Final before the season started you had rocks in your head. We still have a fair way to go but as the Dogs showed last year it can all fall into place very quickly ( and fall apart very quickly ) We have a plan B and C to be exact but we didn't execute it. Simple- We were poor.
The coach and the list aren't going anywhere. A few stumbles on the way will happen. Stick fat people. Believe it or not I don't think we're far off.

One question though....


Does the coach truly believe, that 'bombing it to the top of the square' is a feasible 'Plan A'?

And second to that - is that what the players are being instructed to do? Because they sure as hell do it a lot!

Its not rocket science ( and I stress they did not follow the instructions )

Quick entry to the forward line if a player is on his own
Quick entry to the forward line when the numbers are even and we have one tall and one small at least
Slow entry to the forward line when its crowded, wait for space, change the angle.
Unfortunately we failed to pull the trigger, particularly on the second option, and panicked. We all saw the result.

A year later, it's still an issue.

Is the coach still directing the players not to do it? And when does he expect them to start listening?

[iwantmeseats]

What a bunch of absolute pussies some of you are. Unbelievable.
Boo hoo a player gets criticised! What if they read it?! Oh no!
FMD.