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Pleasing wrote:So how much do we make from Pokies if the social club revenue is $2 Million how much profit are we making on that revenue. Ultimately this is a side buisness it adds nothing to the club apart from the cash it contributes to the bottom line, and arguably tarnishes the brand. I would have to agree with the caller that having a Pokies venue at the new community hub of football in the South East is counter productive. You would want Moorabin to be a place familys gather to use the park and watch local footy of a variety of levels, see the Saints train and generally be a hub for the positive and healthy aspects of sport.
If Pokies are that important to our bottom line and we have to retain them for the revenue then I hope we could consider locating them somewhere else or leasing the licences to another operator or something like that. Making our social club a Pokies venue is likely to put many real members off going there I know I would avoid it like the plague, ultimately surely what we would want is a social club that feels like our home and that is full of St Kilda members. Where you can have a meal or a drink or a coffee and be immersed in the history of the club and discuss with the person sitting next to you where you were when Plugger kicked his ton against Footscray or Phil Carmen headbutted Umpire Carbury or when Winmar hit Lockett just before the siren for the game winning goal against Carlton. We should be aiming to be a footy club not a casino.
All this stuff of if we don't do it someone else will is complete rubbish the Pokies are a scourge on our community they tarnish the clubs brand and they keep Saints supporters away from the club. Open a Cafe instead with a quality Barista and the players latte sipping ways between sessions will more than make up for the lost Pokies Revenue.
What is this crap about kids being near pokies that makes it so bad. They aren't in the same room for a start. Is the noise bad for kids. I doubt it. And how does pokies tarnish the brand? When was the last article that cause the brand to tarnish over having pokies. And there is no way there is even the slightest chance of them thinking about having meals unless there are pokies. I doubt we will have them anyway to be honest but pokies at least gives that option a chance. And talk about emotive words like saying its a casino. What crap. I go to 2 local pubs and the local RSL and not once has anyone suggested it is anything like a casino but then again if it was there are many kids at the casino so im unsure where you are going with this. As for pokies keeping people away from the club well that's clearly a joke because there isn't anything at the club apart from pokies. Again emotive rubbish. The fact and this is fact unlike your fiction, is if we don't have them then someone close will. Fact. If we have them at least we are responsible for addicted gamblers. The other option is to get rid of the pokies and get rid of the problem and move it elsewhere were we have no control. We feel better but nothing is achieved for the people with the problem. Yep that's how to deal with the issue. Not.
I think Pokies do tarnish the brand as the whole vibe when you look in the social club is one of depressing old people killing time before death. The whole place has that vibe at the moment. There is something fundamentally depressing about pokies venues which deliberately remove natural light sources and clocks so you can spend longer using your pension up in one sitting. I would rather a vibrant community space but unfortunately no one wants to just hand over money. We need to bleed these vulnerable people of their money and dignity because we want our competition to keep expanding at a massive rate.
Pleasing wrote:So how much do we make from Pokies if the social club revenue is $2 Million how much profit are we making on that revenue. Ultimately this is a side buisness it adds nothing to the club apart from the cash it contributes to the bottom line, and arguably tarnishes the brand. I would have to agree with the caller that having a Pokies venue at the new community hub of football in the South East is counter productive. You would want Moorabin to be a place familys gather to use the park and watch local footy of a variety of levels, see the Saints train and generally be a hub for the positive and healthy aspects of sport.
If Pokies are that important to our bottom line and we have to retain them for the revenue then I hope we could consider locating them somewhere else or leasing the licences to another operator or something like that. Making our social club a Pokies venue is likely to put many real members off going there I know I would avoid it like the plague, ultimately surely what we would want is a social club that feels like our home and that is full of St Kilda members. Where you can have a meal or a drink or a coffee and be immersed in the history of the club and discuss with the person sitting next to you where you were when Plugger kicked his ton against Footscray or Phil Carmen headbutted Umpire Carbury or when Winmar hit Lockett just before the siren for the game winning goal against Carlton. We should be aiming to be a footy club not a casino.
All this stuff of if we don't do it someone else will is complete rubbish the Pokies are a scourge on our community they tarnish the clubs brand and they keep Saints supporters away from the club. Open a Cafe instead with a quality Barista and the players latte sipping ways between sessions will more than make up for the lost Pokies Revenue.
What is this crap about kids being near pokies that makes it so bad. They aren't in the same room for a start. Is the noise bad for kids. I doubt it. And how does pokies tarnish the brand? When was the last article that cause the brand to tarnish over having pokies. And there is no way there is even the slightest chance of them thinking about having meals unless there are pokies. I doubt we will have them anyway to be honest but pokies at least gives that option a chance. And talk about emotive words like saying its a casino. What crap. I go to 2 local pubs and the local RSL and not once has anyone suggested it is anything like a casino but then again if it was there are many kids at the casino so im unsure where you are going with this. As for pokies keeping people away from the club well that's clearly a joke because there isn't anything at the club apart from pokies. Again emotive rubbish. The fact and this is fact unlike your fiction, is if we don't have them then someone close will. Fact. If we have them at least we are responsible for addicted gamblers. The other option is to get rid of the pokies and get rid of the problem and move it elsewhere were we have no control. We feel better but nothing is achieved for the people with the problem. Yep that's how to deal with the issue. Not.
I think Pokies do tarnish the brand as the whole vibe when you look in the social club is one of depressing old people killing time before death. The whole place has that vibe at the moment. There is something fundamentally depressing about pokies venues which deliberately remove natural light sources and clocks so you can spend longer using your pension up in one sitting. I would rather a vibrant community space but unfortunately no one wants to just hand over money. We need to bleed these vulnerable people of their money and dignity because we want our competition to keep expanding at a massive rate.
Emotive rubbish. Can you show us all the sponsors we have lost because of pokies or all the ones North have picked up by not having them. And can you show me all the negative articles because we have pokies. And if old people want to kill time as you emotively call it then good luck to them. I wouldn't do it but each to their own. My 2 local pubs have pokies but they also have a bar with a TAB in it. Plenty of old people also killing time there and plenty who then get in their car and risk others lives. See that's emotive but very factual. I see no one wants to address us selling grog at our venues. Maybe because that is socially acceptable and pokies aren't.
SaintPav wrote:
You are making a bad argument and that is a poor reason not to do the right thing.
It's not even a reason; it's just a cop out.
The 'right thing' is a subjective idea. 15 people a day die from alcohol related diseases in Australia. Should people not be allowed to drink because of the ones who die and get sick from it? Alcohol related sponsorship is everywhere in Australian sport yet it's a leading cause of death and disease. As I see it, gambling revenue is in the same boat. The same people who may need to be 'protected' from their pokie addiction might also need protection from their alcohol addiction or the fags they smoke, both of which might kill them or shorten their lives. Stopping people gambling, drinking or smoking on moral grounds is impossible. People are going to drink, smoke and gamble whether there are pokies at Moorabbin or not.
Yeah, yeah, gambling is a human right.
I don't mean 'right' as in an everyday virtuous sense but in the context of weather gambling is an ethical business.
Justifying it because it would happen anyway and talking about smoking etc is a poor excuse and is a morally bankrupt proposition.
The truth is, revenue and profit is a greater priority than people's well being and that is the system and framework we live in.
The rest is bullsh.t
But smoking and drinking are important because you are using things like addiction and losing money as reasons we shouldn't have pokies but it either doesn't apply to those other things or you don't care. Of course we have pokies to make money. Anyway saying otherwise is silly or talking crap but I don't think anyone has said anything else anyway. I still fail to see anyone come up with good reasons we should get rid of pokies but continue to serve alcohol. And again no one seems to care that the pokies just get sent to another local establishment for the same people to lose their money. But at least we feel better. Who really cares about the addicts?
Because the discussion is about gambling. It's not about smoking, drinking, having sex with pets or any other issue you chose to bring up to derail the argument.
Go do a course on moral philosophy and ethics if you don't get it. You seem to have plenty of time on your hands.
Holder of unacceptable views and other thought crimes.
SaintPav wrote:
You are making a bad argument and that is a poor reason not to do the right thing.
It's not even a reason; it's just a cop out.
The 'right thing' is a subjective idea. 15 people a day die from alcohol related diseases in Australia. Should people not be allowed to drink because of the ones who die and get sick from it? Alcohol related sponsorship is everywhere in Australian sport yet it's a leading cause of death and disease. As I see it, gambling revenue is in the same boat. The same people who may need to be 'protected' from their pokie addiction might also need protection from their alcohol addiction or the fags they smoke, both of which might kill them or shorten their lives. Stopping people gambling, drinking or smoking on moral grounds is impossible. People are going to drink, smoke and gamble whether there are pokies at Moorabbin or not.
Yeah, yeah, gambling is a human right.
I don't mean 'right' as in an everyday virtuous sense but in the context of weather gambling is an ethical business.
Justifying it because it would happen anyway and talking about smoking etc is a poor excuse and is a morally bankrupt proposition.
The truth is, revenue and profit is a greater priority than people's well being and that is the system and framework we live in.
The rest is bullsh.t
But smoking and drinking are important because you are using things like addiction and losing money as reasons we shouldn't have pokies but it either doesn't apply to those other things or you don't care. Of course we have pokies to make money. Anyway saying otherwise is silly or talking crap but I don't think anyone has said anything else anyway. I still fail to see anyone come up with good reasons we should get rid of pokies but continue to serve alcohol. And again no one seems to care that the pokies just get sent to another local establishment for the same people to lose their money. But at least we feel better. Who really cares about the addicts?
Because the discussion is about gambling. It's not about smoking, drinking, having sex with pets or any other issue you chose to bring up to derail the argument.
Go do a course on moral philosophy and ethics if you don't get it. You seem to have plenty of time on your hands.
It is about gambling but the reasons people give are the same as not having grog. I just want to know why those reasons only seem applicable to pokies but not other issues. I have discovered on here if people don't have a good answer they get personal. There are some soft people on here with getting asked questions they don't like.
If you want to keep it to purely about pokies can you tell me how it helps an addict if we move the pokies from our ground to the sandbelt or somewhere close by? It seems we don't care about the people effected but some mythical thing that it gives the club a bad name.
gringo wrote:
I think Pokies do tarnish the brand as the whole vibe when you look in the social club is one of depressing old people killing time before death. The whole place has that vibe at the moment. There is something fundamentally depressing about pokies venues which deliberately remove natural light sources and clocks so you can spend longer using your pension up in one sitting. I would rather a vibrant community space but unfortunately no one wants to just hand over money. We need to bleed these vulnerable people of their money and dignity because we want our competition to keep expanding at a massive rate.
Emotive rubbish. Can you show us all the sponsors we have lost because of pokies or all the ones North have picked up by not having them. And can you show me all the negative articles because we have pokies. And if old people want to kill time as you emotively call it then good luck to them. I wouldn't do it but each to their own. My 2 local pubs have pokies but they also have a bar with a TAB in it. Plenty of old people also killing time there and plenty who then get in their car and risk others lives. See that's emotive but very factual. I see no one wants to address us selling grog at our venues. Maybe because that is socially acceptable and pokies aren't.
I didn't say we have lost a single sponsor but it is a blight on society that gambling is considered an easy way to make money. I find pokies venues depressing and ugly. I would actually avoid going to a venue with them. I wish someone at the club could get creative and look at some alternative revenue streams but I am resigned to the fact that while it's there no one will innovate. Maybe we could look at something like carparks or something that gets money for nothing is a similar way. Dig a pit under Moorabin and lease the parking to commuters who can drive to the station there and park under the oval....anyway just a thought.
SaintPav wrote:
You are making a bad argument and that is a poor reason not to do the right thing.
It's not even a reason; it's just a cop out.
The 'right thing' is a subjective idea. 15 people a day die from alcohol related diseases in Australia. Should people not be allowed to drink because of the ones who die and get sick from it? Alcohol related sponsorship is everywhere in Australian sport yet it's a leading cause of death and disease. As I see it, gambling revenue is in the same boat. The same people who may need to be 'protected' from their pokie addiction might also need protection from their alcohol addiction or the fags they smoke, both of which might kill them or shorten their lives. Stopping people gambling, drinking or smoking on moral grounds is impossible. People are going to drink, smoke and gamble whether there are pokies at Moorabbin or not.
Yeah, yeah, gambling is a human right.
I don't mean 'right' as in an everyday virtuous sense but in the context of weather gambling is an ethical business.
Justifying it because it would happen anyway and talking about smoking etc is a poor excuse and is a morally bankrupt proposition.
The truth is, revenue and profit is a greater priority than people's well being and that is the system and framework we live in.
The rest is bullsh.t
Don't think anyone is suggesting we amp up the pokies business and squeeze it for all it is worth (are they?). If we had a blank sheet of paper today I don't even think most would be advocate setting them up.
However today we have them and if we got rid off them at this point in time you could easily sink the club. So let's be practical, build some other business around them, take away our reliance and better position ourselves to make that call later on down the track.
WindSister wrote:* just so we are surfn the same wave *
... the earlier mentioned goat/s , is/are regarded as Ceremonial condiment.
......just as well you clarified that. I was starting to feel a bit lost. Is the goat a metaphoric thing or an actual animal? So the goat is a condiment? I feel I need 2 weeks in the Mojave with a bag of dried peyote to get to the bottom of this.
Because the discussion is about gambling. It's not about smoking, drinking, having sex with pets or any other issue you chose to bring up to derail the argument.
its all Pavs fault .
He started it ... lol
...anyways ,
talkn about pokies is about as boring as losing on the things ,
'n i found myself bored
'n so i rectified the situation.
this is all.
... i get bored with being bored.
.name the ways , thought manipulates the State of Presence away.
Pluggers point is interesting. How does it help addicts if we don't have pokies?
How does it help junkies if we don't sell heroin? Might as well sell it ourselves and provide safe haven for users, instead of them taking their chances on the streets. We can help keep it under control. Right? Oh yeah, legal/illegal, THAT'S the difference. Everything that is legal is good, everything that is illegal, (like jaywalking) is bad.
And I agree with the alcohol argument too, but even I'm realistic enough to see that a club with no beer ain't making nothing. A cafe is a good idea, not too much caffeine or fatty foods though...
Whatever way we find to make money, someone will be exploited, or disadvantaged I'm sure. Its the root of all evil, after all. But that doesn't mean we should just give in to market forces and libertarianism, etc. A club should stand for something. Its not just emotive rubbish, its life. All those cold hard realists have soft spots too, just not in the same place.
I would go to a venue with a handful of pokies, but I would never set foot in a place dominated by them. How many did Archie want? 80? The hell with that.
Just My Opinion
------------------------------------------------
You want the club to survive..accept the Pokies......If you don't want the club to survive reject them then you can go follow another club ..problem is they will have pokies.
Austinnn wrote:Pluggers point is interesting. How does it help addicts if we don't have pokies?
How does it help junkies if we don't sell heroin? Might as well sell it ourselves and provide safe haven for users, instead of them taking their chances on the streets. We can help keep it under control. Right? Oh yeah, legal/illegal, THAT'S the difference. Everything that is legal is good, everything that is illegal, (like jaywalking) is bad.
And I agree with the alcohol argument too, but even I'm realistic enough to see that a club with no beer ain't making nothing. A cafe is a good idea, not too much caffeine or fatty foods though...
Whatever way we find to make money, someone will be exploited, or disadvantaged I'm sure. Its the root of all evil, after all. But that doesn't mean we should just give in to market forces and libertarianism, etc. A club should stand for something. Its not just emotive rubbish, its life. All those cold hard realists have soft spots too, just not in the same place.
I would go to a venue with a handful of pokies, but I would never set foot in a place dominated by them. How many did Archie want? 80? The hell with that.
Who has said everything legal is good. It seems those against these boring machines needs to use emotive words to get their point across. Maybe this thread would be relevant before we got pokies but we now have them so those who don't want them need to come up with better arguments than using heroin as an example. By the way Austin I have no idea how many pokies we have but Archie didn't want more, he wanted the same and we still have the same now. My guess is maybe about 70 of these boring machines. I still don't get people who say they wont go to places with pokies either. They are always in a room that is separated from the rest of the pub or club so can always avoid them. I certainly do. Cant stand the bloody stupid things. The pnly reason I wouldn't go to the pub or club with pokies is if the rest of the place is no good. Im sure there are many like that but not where I go. I wouldn't go to Moorabbin at the moment because pokies is all they have. Can we at least wait for the new plans to see how the pokies are separated from the rest of the place before we say we wont go there.
SaintPav wrote:I can't believe what I'm reading but obviously several libertarians and a few spokespeople from the Gaming Council on here. Who would have figured.
The poker-machine industry facilitated by the state is unethical because it causes harm, usually to those who can least afford it.
People say, it's about having self-control. The assumption is that everyone is equal and that everyone has the same level of control. Heavy users and addicts lose control. Government perpetrates and benefits from the harm and gambling addiction; while poker machine manufacturers and gaming venues profit directly from the harm and misery they cause. Gambling addiction also has wider societal implications and community costs.
Also, the machines are rigged and the outcomes over time are pre determined.
Poker machines and gaming venues might be legal but that doesn't mean that they are ethical.
Defending the indefensible.
Moral crusading.
F*ck
me
drunk.
Talking of drunk, should the club serve alcohol then. I would suggest I also cant believe what im reading. Are there anti gambling people on here? Are there moral crusaders who want to shift the problem and not deal with it.?
The club should be able to serve alcohol. But I don't think they should be allowed to exploit alcoholics, and facilitate them self-destructing.
The club should be allowed to have pokies, but they shouldn't be allowed to house them in a way that exploits those with a problem and encourages them to self-destruct.
As I've said earlier, people should be allowed to partake in any legal activities they want. And businesses should be allowed to provide those services. But, they should be provided in a way that doesn't prey on people's vulnerabilities. It's just not nice.
Pokies venues are the issue.
Pokies and gambling have been around for ever, in various forms. And so have addicts. But it's never been as prevalent as it is now, due to the way businesses package it.
SaintPav wrote:I can't believe what I'm reading but obviously several libertarians and a few spokespeople from the Gaming Council on here. Who would have figured.
The poker-machine industry facilitated by the state is unethical because it causes harm, usually to those who can least afford it.
People say, it's about having self-control. The assumption is that everyone is equal and that everyone has the same level of control. Heavy users and addicts lose control. Government perpetrates and benefits from the harm and gambling addiction; while poker machine manufacturers and gaming venues profit directly from the harm and misery they cause. Gambling addiction also has wider societal implications and community costs.
Also, the machines are rigged and the outcomes over time are pre determined.
Poker machines and gaming venues might be legal but that doesn't mean that they are ethical.
Defending the indefensible.
Moral crusading.
F*ck
me
drunk.
Talking of drunk, should the club serve alcohol then. I would suggest I also cant believe what im reading. Are there anti gambling people on here? Are there moral crusaders who want to shift the problem and not deal with it.?
The club should be able to serve alcohol. But I don't think they should be allowed to exploit alcoholics, and facilitate them self-destructing.
The club should be allowed to have pokies, but they shouldn't be allowed to house them in a way that exploits those with a problem and encourages them to self-destruct.
As I've said earlier, people should be allowed to partake in any legal activities they want. And businesses should be allowed to provide those services. But, they should be provided in a way that doesn't prey on people's vulnerabilities. It's just not nice.
Pokies venues are the issue.
Pokies and gambling have been around for ever, in various forms. And so have addicts. But it's never been as prevalent as it is now, due to the way businesses package it.
SaintPav wrote:I can't believe what I'm reading but obviously several libertarians and a few spokespeople from the Gaming Council on here. Who would have figured.
The poker-machine industry facilitated by the state is unethical because it causes harm, usually to those who can least afford it.
People say, it's about having self-control. The assumption is that everyone is equal and that everyone has the same level of control. Heavy users and addicts lose control. Government perpetrates and benefits from the harm and gambling addiction; while poker machine manufacturers and gaming venues profit directly from the harm and misery they cause. Gambling addiction also has wider societal implications and community costs.
Also, the machines are rigged and the outcomes over time are pre determined.
Poker machines and gaming venues might be legal but that doesn't mean that they are ethical.
Defending the indefensible.
Moral crusading.
F*ck
me
drunk.
Talking of drunk, should the club serve alcohol then. I would suggest I also cant believe what im reading. Are there anti gambling people on here? Are there moral crusaders who want to shift the problem and not deal with it.?
The club should be able to serve alcohol. But I don't think they should be allowed to exploit alcoholics, and facilitate them self-destructing.
The club should be allowed to have pokies, but they shouldn't be allowed to house them in a way that exploits those with a problem and encourages them to self-destruct.
As I've said earlier, people should be allowed to partake in any legal activities they want. And businesses should be allowed to provide those services. But, they should be provided in a way that doesn't prey on people's vulnerabilities. It's just not nice.
Pokies venues are the issue.
Pokies and gambling have been around for ever, in various forms. And so have addicts. But it's never been as prevalent as it is now, due to the way businesses package it.
It was not as prevalent because the bus to Echuca/ Moama took 4 hours so the oldies were too stuffed to gamble by the time they got to NSW.
SaintPav wrote:I can't believe what I'm reading but obviously several libertarians and a few spokespeople from the Gaming Council on here. Who would have figured.
The poker-machine industry facilitated by the state is unethical because it causes harm, usually to those who can least afford it.
People say, it's about having self-control. The assumption is that everyone is equal and that everyone has the same level of control. Heavy users and addicts lose control. Government perpetrates and benefits from the harm and gambling addiction; while poker machine manufacturers and gaming venues profit directly from the harm and misery they cause. Gambling addiction also has wider societal implications and community costs.
Also, the machines are rigged and the outcomes over time are pre determined.
Poker machines and gaming venues might be legal but that doesn't mean that they are ethical.
Defending the indefensible.
Moral crusading.
F*ck
me
drunk.
Talking of drunk, should the club serve alcohol then. I would suggest I also cant believe what im reading. Are there anti gambling people on here? Are there moral crusaders who want to shift the problem and not deal with it.?
The club should be able to serve alcohol. But I don't think they should be allowed to exploit alcoholics, and facilitate them self-destructing.
The club should be allowed to have pokies, but they shouldn't be allowed to house them in a way that exploits those with a problem and encourages them to self-destruct.
As I've said earlier, people should be allowed to partake in any legal activities they want. And businesses should be allowed to provide those services. But, they should be provided in a way that doesn't prey on people's vulnerabilities. It's just not nice.
Pokies venues are the issue.
Pokies and gambling have been around for ever, in various forms. And so have addicts. But it's never been as prevalent as it is now, due to the way businesses package it.
I totally agree.
Me too. I agree with you also Plugger, if pokies are all the venue has, then that's really awful. Its the absence of other better things to do that really sucks. Lots of people go to Crown and don't go near the pokies there, just an example.
Obviously St Kilda is not Crown, and personally I hate Crown too. Just an example.
Just My Opinion
------------------------------------------------
Austinnn wrote:
Me too. I agree with you also Plugger, if pokies are all the venue has, then that's really awful. Its the absence of other better things to do that really sucks. Lots of people go to Crown and don't go near the pokies there, just an example.
Obviously St Kilda is not Crown, and personally I hate Crown too. Just an example.
I love casino's but then again I love gambling. Love going to the races. Cant stand pokies and would never go to an only pokies venue but I do like going to the pub for a bet and a drink and laughing and talking crap with mates even if pokies are there. 9 years in a row of unemployment means I have to keep these vices to twice a week. The dole needs to increase quickly.
I applaud North for going 'pokie free' I agree J.M.
I am also opposed to the production of nicotine/ chemical death sticks that are ok- ed for the retail shelves.
Amazing that they are still sucked up by so many in Vic. We seem a bit in denial here but looking forward to them being outlawed at cafes and eateries soon.
It's Interesting/ saddening to me that a sacred ceremony that included the 'occasional' smoking of nicotine by Native Americans is repackaged by real smart europeans for their own tribal members to incubate an expansive list of cancers and other illnesses. Why a safer relaxant has not emerged to replace the devilish death sticks confounds me.
Anyway best of health all.
G O S A I N T S !
The boy can play and we can build a defence around him that will have respect.
Megamaguire wrote:I applaud North for going 'pokie free' I agree J.M.
I am also opposed to the production of nicotine/ chemical death sticks that are ok- ed for the retail shelves.
Amazing that they are still sucked up by so many in Vic. We seem a bit in denial here but looking forward to them being outlawed at cafes and eateries soon.
It's Interesting/ saddening to me that a sacred ceremony that included the 'occasional' smoking of nicotine by Native Americans is repackaged by real smart europeans for their own tribal members to incubate an expansive list of cancers and other illnesses. Why a safer relaxant has not emerged to replace the devilish death sticks confounds me.
Anyway best of health all.
G O S A I N T S !
Classic strawman argument conflating cigrettes with pokies.
