Collingwood's Draw

[Mr Magic]

What a load of crap the 'everyone wants to play Collingwood at home' line is.
If it was really truly their motivating force behind the FIXture than why are the interstate Clubs missing out on having home games against them?
They don't want full stadiums?
They're not entitled to reap the financial benefits of hosting the feral filth?

It is, IMO, an absolute furphy trotted out to try and rationalize why the FIXture is as biased as it is.

The truth is probably simply that they want Collingwood playing at the biggest capacity ground so that they can attract the biggest attendance.

We have a game Vs Sydney every year, NO MATTER where we or they are on the ladder! As for filling stadiums it's only Port that don't have 40,000 plus members to fill their own stadiums so your argument is flawed.

.

No, instead of making my argument 'flawed' you actually 'prove it'.

Where do you play Sydney each year - SCG or Homebush?
Why would they FIXture the game at Homebush?
Because it's a bigger stadium that has a grater capacity.

The FIXture is designed to maximize attendances - that's its primary concern.

All the AFL seems to be interested in is the opportunity for Dimwit and/or Monkeyboy to get up on TV and announce record attendances.
Are they on 'performance based' contracts that have a direect corelation between numbers attending and their salaries?

[Johnny Member]

It's interesting that out of the past 10 flags, the following winners have had some form of 'advantage' given to them....

Brisbane - slaray cap concessions
Sydney - salary cap concessions
Collingwood - Fixed Draw

That's 5 of the past 10 flags that have been won by clubs that have been handed some form of an advantage.


It could be even be argued that had Geelong not taken such fortunate advantage of the Father-Son rule, they may not have won 2 flags.
Obviously they weren't favoured by the AFL as it's available to everyone, but it's an edge nonetheless.

So basically, 7 of the past 10 flag winners have required some form of advantage, some edge to get them over the line.
I'd say that it's f****** hard to win a flag, and the fact that 7 of the past 10 winners have needed some type of advantage to win them, that any advantage is hugely beneficial.

History says that clubs that receive an edge, or make the most of an edge have a much bigger chance to win the flag.

[Johnny Member]

Geeze I would hate to be an interstate side that travels every second week.  :roll:

It's a fair point you make tash.

It's a hard gig for those sides, but somewhat compensated by the fact they have genuine home games every second week which are very difficult for the visitors to win.

Swings and roundabouts  8-)

Glen Jakovich reckons that travelling every second week cut his, and some of his teammate's careers short.

To the point that in his latter years as a player, he didn't travel at all. Alastair Lynch was the same.

For this to happen, there is no doubt that it takes a toll. 


What Jakovich also said, was that the more you travel, the better you get at it.
So in the end, the non-Melbourne clubs actually get an advantage. They are good travellers because they do it every second week, and when playing at home they actually play at their home ground in front of their home crowd (unlike Vic clubs who share grounds).
They also have the advantage of playing Vic clubs at home that aren't accustomed to travelling.


So basically, according to someone who'd know, travelling for the non-Melbourne clubs isn't an issue. Travelling for the Vic clubs is.
And travelling, over time, burns you out.

Unfortunately there's no way around it.

Unless someone can work out a way of, for example, West Coast playing St Kilda without either team having to travel.

I don't have an issue with travelling. That's part of any sport.

What the AFL should be doing, and should have started doing about 10 years ago, was to have a '5 year plan' to have everyone play each other twice.
They didn't do it 10 years ago, so they should be doing it now.

They should not have introduced 2 new teams. They should have relocated 2 if they felt it was so imperative to have teams in Western Sydney and the Gold Coast.

They should not have built a small stadium which means they still must rely on the MCG (a cricket ground).

But anyway, that's already happened. Yet more stuff-ups from this bunch.


So, with 16 teams, the season should be 30 rounds with each team playing each other twice, with a weekend off in the middle.
No pre-season comp.

Clearly you can't do this type of thing overnight, but that should be what is being worked towards - not the opposite.

The 'play everyone 2 twice over 2 years' makes no sense to me. I mean, how stiff would you be playing us last year as opposed to copping us this year!

[plugger66]

The thing that makes me laugh is even if the draw is random it would be unfair. I know people would say at least it is random but dont worry, people on here would still claim it was fixed or this side or that side got an easier draw. JM said that the 3 of the last 10 flag winners had an advantage, 2 because of salary cap and one because of a fixed draw. The funny thins is, and people know but dont acknowledge it, the pies played more top 8 sides twice than any other finals side. Yes they travelled about 2 times less but after proving on here good sides arent effected by travel it shows that their draw last year we certainly no easier than any other top 8 side. But hey dont the facts in the way when trying to discuss this as you know 90% of people on here will just believe anything you say.

There is only one way for a fair draw and that is to play everyone twice and obviously that cannot happen. A random draw is still unfair. There may be degrees of unfair but if it is unfair why not make up a draw to maximise attendances. Still unfair but much better for the competition. At least the interstate clubs still have 2 derbys which is a must for the states.

But keep carrying on. It is quite funny how angry people seem even though nothing will change even when we have a new CEO. You are living in fantasy land if you think it will. The reaction next year will be interesting when we travel 7 times.

[Mr Magic]

There is only one way for a fair draw and that is to play everyone twice and obviously that cannot happen. A random draw is still unfair. There may be degrees of unfair but if it is unfair why not make up a draw to maximise attendances. Still unfair but much better for the competition. At least the interstate clubs still have 2 derbys which is a must for the states.

So why do they go out of their way not to admit it?

That's my beef,
The inherent dishonesty of those in charge by not admitting to what they're attempting to do.

[plugger66]

There is only one way for a fair draw and that is to play everyone twice and obviously that cannot happen. A random draw is still unfair. There may be degrees of unfair but if it is unfair why not make up a draw to maximise attendances. Still unfair but much better for the competition. At least the interstate clubs still have 2 derbys which is a must for the states.

So why do they go out of their way not to admit it?

That's my beef,
The inherent dishonesty of those in charge by not admitting to what they're attempting to do.

You must have your ears closed. They always say the draw is to maximise attendances. I even have seen it in print. Surely you arent blind.

[Leo.J]

There is only one way for a fair draw and that is to play everyone twice and obviously that cannot happen. A random draw is still unfair. There may be degrees of unfair but if it is unfair why not make up a draw to maximise attendances. Still unfair but much better for the competition. At least the interstate clubs still have 2 derbys which is a must for the states.

So why do they go out of their way not to admit it?

That's my beef,
The inherent dishonesty of those in charge by not admitting to what they're attempting to do.

You must have your ears closed. They always say the draw is to maximise attendances. I even have seen it in print. Surely you arent blind.

I've never heard them mention unfair.

[plugger66]

There is only one way for a fair draw and that is to play everyone twice and obviously that cannot happen. A random draw is still unfair. There may be degrees of unfair but if it is unfair why not make up a draw to maximise attendances. Still unfair but much better for the competition. At least the interstate clubs still have 2 derbys which is a must for the states.

So why do they go out of their way not to admit it?

That's my beef,
The inherent dishonesty of those in charge by not admitting to what they're attempting to do.

You must have your ears closed. They always say the draw is to maximise attendances. I even have seen it in print. Surely you arent blind.

I've never heard them mention unfair.

It is unfair because teams dont play each other twice and sometimes clubs can be unlucky on who they play twice. For example the pies played more top 8 sides twice last year than any other top 8 side. Probably just proves that in most years the best side wins it and it has little to do with the draw.

[Johnny Member]

Oh come on, what a cop out. What an absolute hypothetical. Did we play any interstate games in the finals? I hate the "what ifs", it feels like loser mentality to me.

It's like a horse race.

If a horse gets a great barrier, and is well weighted in a handicap, it has a better chance than a horse that has drawn a horrible barrier and has been weighted terribly.

The best horse doesn't win. The best horse under those conditions wins.

Now that's all fine, because the weights are done based on a system that is used for every race and every horse.
And the barriers are actually drawn.

No one complains about getting a bad barrier because it's done in a fair and balanced way. It's a draw - literally. You get good ones, and you get bad ones.
But no one has an advantage.


Imagine how outraged people would be if the MRC chose the horse's barriers for the Melbourne Cup?


Would horse owners and trainers just say 'oh well, I'm a loser if I complain so we'll just get on with it'.

I doubt it!

[Mr Magic]

There is only one way for a fair draw and that is to play everyone twice and obviously that cannot happen. A random draw is still unfair. There may be degrees of unfair but if it is unfair why not make up a draw to maximise attendances. Still unfair but much better for the competition. At least the interstate clubs still have 2 derbys which is a must for the states.

So why do they go out of their way not to admit it?

That's my beef,
The inherent dishonesty of those in charge by not admitting to what they're attempting to do.

You must have your ears closed. They always say the draw is to maximise attendances. I even have seen it in print. Surely you arent blind.

referred blindness from my sore neck.

So if it's the primary focus then why do we have Dimwit and Monkeyboy waffling on every year about all the CLubs wanting to play Collingwood.

You know it's crap.
I know it's crap.
They know it's crap.

How about you send a mesage to your masters to tell them to start telling the truth?

Maybe it's time they released the list of 'FIXture requests submitted by all the Clubs?
Maybe then the majority of fans (those that don't barrack for the Filth) would see what their own Clubs actually wanted?

Whaddya reckon plugger?
Any chance Dimwit and/or Monkeyboy would do that?

[plugger66]

There is only one way for a fair draw and that is to play everyone twice and obviously that cannot happen. A random draw is still unfair. There may be degrees of unfair but if it is unfair why not make up a draw to maximise attendances. Still unfair but much better for the competition. At least the interstate clubs still have 2 derbys which is a must for the states.

So why do they go out of their way not to admit it?

That's my beef,
The inherent dishonesty of those in charge by not admitting to what they're attempting to do.

You must have your ears closed. They always say the draw is to maximise attendances. I even have seen it in print. Surely you arent blind.

referred blindness from my sore neck.

So if it's the primary focus then why do we have Dimwit and Monkeyboy waffling on every year about all the CLubs wanting to play Collingwood.

You know it's crap.
I know it's crap.
They know it's crap.

How about you send a mesage to your masters to tell them to start telling the truth?

Maybe it's time they released the list of 'FIXture requests submitted by all the Clubs?
Maybe then the majority of fans (those that don't barrack for the Filth) would see what their own Clubs actually wanted?

Whaddya reckon plugger?
Any chance Dimwit and/or Monkeyboy would do that?

I have never heard those 2 guys, and hilarious nicknames by the way, go on every year about every club wanting to play the pies but I am 100% sure every club does. Also why would they release the requests? To make whinging supporters happy? The clubs know and that is all that matters. Again I find those nick names hilarious. Also cant wait till we get 2 new people in the job so we can hear their new nicks because lets face they will be doing exactly the same to the draw as is now. The only thing is they could be like Ross Oakley and actually want sides to merge or fold and who says we may not be one of them.

[Mr Magic]

There is only one way for a fair draw and that is to play everyone twice and obviously that cannot happen. A random draw is still unfair. There may be degrees of unfair but if it is unfair why not make up a draw to maximise attendances. Still unfair but much better for the competition. At least the interstate clubs still have 2 derbys which is a must for the states.

So why do they go out of their way not to admit it?

That's my beef,
The inherent dishonesty of those in charge by not admitting to what they're attempting to do.

You must have your ears closed. They always say the draw is to maximise attendances. I even have seen it in print. Surely you arent blind.

referred blindness from my sore neck.

So if it's the primary focus then why do we have Dimwit and Monkeyboy waffling on every year about all the CLubs wanting to play Collingwood.

You know it's crap.
I know it's crap.
They know it's crap.

How about you send a mesage to your masters to tell them to start telling the truth?

Maybe it's time they released the list of 'FIXture requests submitted by all the Clubs?
Maybe then the majority of fans (those that don't barrack for the Filth) would see what their own Clubs actually wanted?

Whaddya reckon plugger?
Any chance Dimwit and/or Monkeyboy would do that?

I have never heard those 2 guys, and hilarious nicknames by the way, go on every year about every club wanting to play the pies but I am 100% sure every club does. Also why would they release the requests? To make whinging supporters happy? The clubs know and that is all that matters. Again I find those nick names hilarious. Also cant wait till we get 2 new people in the job so we can hear their new nicks because lets face they will be doing exactly the same to the draw as is now. The only thing is they could be like Ross Oakley and actually want sides to merge or fold and who says we may not be one of them.

So plugger, are you Dimwit's / Monkeyboy's official spokesperson on saintsational?
Are you telling us the 'official line'?

And now that the the 'game is saved' by the new tv rights, maybe you could ask your masters if we could/should re-prioritize' the FIXture and make 'fairness' the number 1 priority?

In all seriousness, it's not that I don't understand the benefits of 'maximizing the attendances' priority in the make-up of the FIXture.

It's this constant charade by those in power.

And throwing up your hands in the air becasue it's too difficult to repair is not an acceptable answer.

Maybe if they attack the problem with a positive attitude to creating a fairer system they might find a solution that is acceptable to all?
I'm pretty sure most reasonable people would accept luck, good or bad, is ok in terms of a FIXture. Far more acceptable than the current system which penalises some Clubs becasue they have less members/supporters than others.
It's supposed to be a competition - everybody apparently plays under the same salary cap, total number of players, same #of games, smae setof rules.
You don't get to pay your players more, or have more players just because you have 50000+ members.
You don't have your own set of rules just because you have 50000+ members.

Why then shouldn't there be an equality in the fairness of the FIXture?
Why should some teams have an inherent advantage over others just becasue of the size of their membership?

[plugger66]

There is only one way for a fair draw and that is to play everyone twice and obviously that cannot happen. A random draw is still unfair. There may be degrees of unfair but if it is unfair why not make up a draw to maximise attendances. Still unfair but much better for the competition. At least the interstate clubs still have 2 derbys which is a must for the states.

So why do they go out of their way not to admit it?

That's my beef,
The inherent dishonesty of those in charge by not admitting to what they're attempting to do.

You must have your ears closed. They always say the draw is to maximise attendances. I even have seen it in print. Surely you arent blind.

referred blindness from my sore neck.

So if it's the primary focus then why do we have Dimwit and Monkeyboy waffling on every year about all the CLubs wanting to play Collingwood.

You know it's crap.
I know it's crap.
They know it's crap.

How about you send a mesage to your masters to tell them to start telling the truth?

Maybe it's time they released the list of 'FIXture requests submitted by all the Clubs?
Maybe then the majority of fans (those that don't barrack for the Filth) would see what their own Clubs actually wanted?

Whaddya reckon plugger?
Any chance Dimwit and/or Monkeyboy would do that?

I have never heard those 2 guys, and hilarious nicknames by the way, go on every year about every club wanting to play the pies but I am 100% sure every club does. Also why would they release the requests? To make whinging supporters happy? The clubs know and that is all that matters. Again I find those nick names hilarious. Also cant wait till we get 2 new people in the job so we can hear their new nicks because lets face they will be doing exactly the same to the draw as is now. The only thing is they could be like Ross Oakley and actually want sides to merge or fold and who says we may not be one of them.

So plugger, are you Dimwit's / Monkeyboy's official spokesperson on saintsational?
Are you telling us the 'official line'?

And now that the the 'game is saved' by the new tv rights, maybe you could ask your masters if we could/should re-prioritize' the FIXture and make 'fairness' the number 1 priority?

In all seriousness, it's not that I don't understand the benefits of 'maximizing the attendances' priority in the make-up of the FIXture.

It's this constant charade by those in power.

And throwing up your hands in the air becasue it's too difficult to repair is not an acceptable answer.

Maybe if they attack the problem with a positive attitude to creating a fairer system they might find a solution that is acceptable to all?
I'm pretty sure most reasonable people would accept luck, good or bad, is ok in terms of a FIXture. Far more acceptable than the current system which penalises some Clubs becasue they have less members/supporters than others.
It's supposed to be a competition - everybody apparently plays under the same salary cap, total number of players, same #of games, smae setof rules.
You don't get to pay your players more, or have more players just because you have 50000+ members.
You don't have your own set of rules just because you have 50000+ members.

Why then shouldn't there be an equality in the fairness of the FIXture?
Why should some teams have an inherent advantage over others just becasue of the size of their membership?

I dont know how many times I have mentioned this but with 18 sides it is impossible to have an even FIXture. That way of spelling is nearly as funny as those 2 nick names. Anyway back to what I said. It will be compromised what ever the AFL do so they choose to maximise attendances so that we can actually grow the game and keep all the sides. You can be assured that the TV rights would be millions less if we didnt have the draw close to how it is now. I know people say they dont care about how much money they make but they would if suddenly sides merged or folded and we were one of them. They would then come out and say we should have kept things how they were and I know that because of the amount of hindsight coaching we see on here. The other thing that could happen with less money generated is players going to other codes. I certainly dont want our game to get weaker.

Sorry that I can see the bigger picture than having a random, still uneven, draw. How stupid would it be if GWS, a growing club, only playing Sydney twice every 3 years.

[Johnny Member]

You can be assured that the TV rights would be millions less if we didnt have the draw oretty close to how it is now. I know people say they dont care about how much money they make but they would if suddenly sides merged or folded and we were one of them. They would then come out and say we should have kept things how they were and I know that because of the amount of hindsight coaching we see on here. The other thing that could happen with less money generated is players going to other codes. I certainly dont want our game to get weaker.

It is weaker.

The AFL brand is stronger and bigger, but the game itself and the competition is far weaker.
The club 'brands' have been diluted to a point of almost being unrecognisable.

[plugger66]

You can be assured that the TV rights would be millions less if we didnt have the draw oretty close to how it is now. I know people say they dont care about how much money they make but they would if suddenly sides merged or folded and we were one of them. They would then come out and say we should have kept things how they were and I know that because of the amount of hindsight coaching we see on here. The other thing that could happen with less money generated is players going to other codes. I certainly dont want our game to get weaker.

It is weaker.

The AFL brand is stronger and bigger, but the game itself and the competition is far weaker.
The club 'brands' have been diluted to a point of almost being unrecognisable.

Apart from those words, can you explain what you actually mean?

The game is probably better than ever IMO. Certainly great to watch. Over the last year or 2 I think the game on the field has improved.

[Mr Magic]

SO plugger you've discounted completely the notion that the FIXture (what other term would you use to describe something that is designed to produce an outcome, othjer than 'fixed'?) should even attempt to be fair?

GIven that, are you happy that the AFL keeps deluding the fans into thinking that the 'FIXture' is a 'DRAW', even though the term 'draw' has a connotation of randomness, which you admit the AFL FIXture doesn not have?

How about some honsety from the 'fixers' about all of this?

I wnat a 'warm fuzzy feeling' from knowing that my team is playing in a competition that is all fair and equal, other than the vagiaries of random luck.

I get that from knowing the salary cap is not being breached.
I get that from knowing the MRP/Tribunal is above reproach.
I get that from knowing the umpires are in good hands under the leadership of Jeff Gieschen.
I get that from knowing that the Commission never overule their own rules, so therefore asking them to act on their conscience rather than following the letter of the ruleswill never happen.

Why can't I get that frmo full adn open disclosure about the FIXture and its 'seeming bias' towards some Clubs over others?

What's that age-old saying about Justice?
- it needing to not only be done, but seen to be done.

[stevie]

My 2 bobs worth - while the draw as a whole is pretty average (playing teams twice before you've played other teams even once is s***), the interstate thing is differetn each year.

when did the Filth start getting these good draws? Five years back? It still took them till last year to assemble a good team (though 07 prelim was a toss-up; they would've probably beaten Port in the GF if through).

2009 we had arguably the greatest home and away season of any in history and were the first team to win every interstate game in any season.
Having a top team helped obviously.

If we can't have a draw where each team plays each other HOME and AWAY, then make it a 17 game season and play each other once, alternating the locale each season.

One more thing - remember Etihad used to be our 'fortress'? This year I think we've hardly played there, so it doesn't seem to be the same for us. not a bad thing I suppose.

final comment - playing the Bummers in a final at the G (if either of us makes it) would be different to playing them at Etiahd...

[plugger66]

SO plugger you've discounted completely the notion that the FIXture (what other term would you use to describe something that is designed to produce an outcome, othjer than 'fixed'?) should even attempt to be fair?

GIven that, are you happy that the AFL keeps deluding the fans into thinking that the 'FIXture' is a 'DRAW', even though the term 'draw' has a connotation of randomness, which you admit the AFL FIXture doesn not have?

How about some honsety from the 'fixers' about all of this?

I wnat a 'warm fuzzy feeling' from knowing that my team is playing in a competition that is all fair and equal, other than the vagiaries of random luck.

I get that from knowing the salary cap is not being breached.
I get that from knowing the MRP/Tribunal is above reproach.
I get that from knowing the umpires are in good hands under the leadership of Jeff Gieschen.
I get that from knowing that the Commission never overule their own rules, so therefore asking them to act on their conscience rather than following the letter of the ruleswill never happen.

Why can't I get that frmo full adn open disclosure about the FIXture and its 'seeming bias' towards some Clubs over others?

What's that age-old saying about Justice?
- it needing to not only be done, but seen to be done.

Love the whinging but hearing no answers. Do you agree that we would have much less money in the game if it was randon. Do you agree that random draw still isnt fair. Do you think interstate sides only playing each other twice every 3 years wouldnt grow the game as much in those states. Do you want our better athletes to play other sports because the AFL salaries actually dropped.

You just seen to forget, I suppose it is convenient, that the AFL do acknowledge that the fixture is done to maximise attendances. By the way my 2011 fixture does say fixture. I would think most do. I dont see draw written on to many of them .

[Johnny Member]

Do you agree that random draw still isnt fair.

Yes it is.

The result isn't fair, but the method is.


That's the issue.

[matrix]

yeah
stoopid

[Johnny Member]

Do you want our better athletes to play other sports because the AFL salaries actually dropped.

I don't understand that argument. I never have.


The best footballers aren't always the best athletes, infact they rarely are.

Other sports have international exposure, international comps, World Cups and heaps more money than AFL footy for the player to earn.

They always have - yet getting gun players into the AFL has never been an issue.

No matter how woeful the abilities of the players are, there are always stand out players that people want to watch. At any level of the game.
People even go and watch park footy to see particular blokes play.


This argument about losing good athletes to other sports is ludicrous.

[plugger66]

Do you want our better athletes to play other sports because the AFL salaries actually dropped.

I don't understand that argument. I never have.


The best footballers aren't always the best athletes, infact they rarely are.

Other sports have international exposure, international comps, World Cups and heaps more money than AFL footy for the player to earn.

They always have - yet getting gun players into the AFL has never been an issue.

No matter how woeful the abilities of the players are, there are always stand out players that people want to watch. At any level of the game.
People even go and watch park footy to see particular blokes play.


This argument about losing good athletes to other sports is ludicrous.

Athletes is just a term. I dont mean fast friggin runners. I mean people with athletic ability. And the less that play between the ages of 12 and 17 means you get less stars. I am not talking park footballers. People wil go to other sports that dont know. It may be their decision or their parents especially if salaries are actually dropping.

[SaintPav]

Do you agree that random draw still isnt fair.

At least it's random.

[Johnny Member]

Athletes is just a term. I dont mean fast friggin runners. I mean people with athletic ability. And the less that play between the ages of 12 and 17 means you get less stars. I am not talking park footballers. People wil go to other sports that dont know. It may be their decision or their parents especially if salaries are actually dropping.

What nonsense.

We've probably already lost over 100 guys who could have been star players to other codes or careers over the years.

Did anyone notice?

[Leo.J]

There is only one way for a fair draw and that is to play everyone twice and obviously that cannot happen. A random draw is still unfair. There may be degrees of unfair but if it is unfair why not make up a draw to maximise attendances. Still unfair but much better for the competition. At least the interstate clubs still have 2 derbys which is a must for the states.

So why do they go out of their way not to admit it?

That's my beef,
The inherent dishonesty of those in charge by not admitting to what they're attempting to do.

You must have your ears closed. They always say the draw is to maximise attendances. I even have seen it in print. Surely you arent blind.

I've never heard them mention unfair.

It is unfair because teams dont play each other twice and sometimes clubs can be unlucky on who they play twice. For example the pies played more top 8 sides twice last year than any other top 8 side. Probably just proves that in most years the best side wins it and it has little to do with the draw.

What I was saying I've never heard the AFL use the term "unfair" when relating to the draw.