Caroline Wilson

[Johnny Member]

........I have been a big wrap for Lyon and the footy admin in the past 3 years, but why can't we admit that not everything's perfect at the saints? The only place we seem to be able to admit it is on here where arguments flame. Heaven help anyone not connected to the club who has the audacity to attack or even comment negatively of our club (especially a woman)

Yep, see how you get trampled on here if you dare make a comment deemed to be negative on current issues, coaching, trading or drafting

Sure, reading this forum from afar for a while, there's no doubt that unpopular opionion isn't exactly welcome!

But i'm sure you'll get over it!


But my view is, that nothing is ever perfect at the Saints. Never has been and never will.

But....It's never been perfect at any club, and never will.


It's the mob attack on the club and assault on the culture and character of the place that has irked me this time.

It's the fact that no damage to society has been done at all. No laws broken, no unsavoury behaviour, nothing viscious or nasty and nothing that every club has done and still does.

And on top of this, we're a team that is one of (if not the) fittest in the comp who has played in the past 2 grand finals. It's not as if there a bunch of undisciplined slugs wallowing on the bottom of the ladder partying on.


I'm not sure what people expect from a footy club. For mine, I expect guys to be fit, keen and come out on weekends like animals and wear the red, white and black like I always wante to as a kid.


And these guys do that.


If anyone wants a bunch of guys that don't drink, don't have sex, don't stay out late, don't do stuff that every guy does and always has done - then I don't know why you follow the footy! Cause that's what happens!

If they're breaking the law or being outright arseholes, then I could understand some concern from those who expect a certain moral standard from guys who happen to be good at sport (even though I don't), but our guys aren't!

It's not as if they're out beating up defenceless cabbies, or riding in cars with murderers etc.

[evertonfc]

No I'm not an idiot Professor Highbrow and thank you very much for the unsolicited insult!

Wasn't aimed at you, Doctor.

But if you're listening to Hinch - come on, think about what he's really bringing to your life.

[InkerSaint]

Did I miss something?

Every club has problems. Does ours have a Problem?

Perhaps someone can spell it out for me.

[oneteam]

You ask Spinner how the club could have handled the situation better? Well there was robust debate at the time on this very site about how the situation was handled. Standing on the steps of the Supreme Court threatening to make her pay until she is past 30yrs of age did exactly what CW said it did. Shifted the sympathy straight from the players involved to the club and made us look like bullies. She's a 17 year old kid - I fail to understand why the club couldn't have just taken out an injunction about the pictures being shown and sought immediate mediation.

It would be convenient if that's what Levin said, but it isn't. He was specifically referring to any profiteering she made as a result of her exploitation. And as far as I'm concerned it should be enforceable for life.
.

All he said was that it is not a waste of time suing her. But the media , and Caroline Wilson especially , like to twist things to make a story.

"When you get an order for damages, in the event we are successful in our claim, the order continues to be valid for up to 15 years," Mr Levin told reporters outside the court.

"In the event that she tries to make money out of this, the misery she has caused to these four undeserving players, then we'll be looking for that money."

[MCG-Unit]

........I have been a big wrap for Lyon and the footy admin in the past 3 years, but why can't we admit that not everything's perfect at the saints? The only place we seem to be able to admit it is on here where arguments flame. Heaven help anyone not connected to the club who has the audacity to attack or even comment negatively of our club (especially a woman)

Yep, see how you get trampled on here if you dare make a comment deemed to be negative on current issues, coaching, trading or drafting

and your love for the club get's questioned

Off course it does, and you get accused of trying to paint the footy club in a bad light

When really, because folks love the club like family, they speak up when they see something they believe is wrong........

[plugger66]

Did I miss something?

Every club has problems. Does ours have a Problem?

Perhaps someone can spell it out for me.

What rock have you been under for the last 15 months? Yes every club does have problems and they cop it when they do. It s our turn now to cop it because at the moment we have problems.

[MCG-Unit]

........I have been a big wrap for Lyon and the footy admin in the past 3 years, but why can't we admit that not everything's perfect at the saints? The only place we seem to be able to admit it is on here where arguments flame. Heaven help anyone not connected to the club who has the audacity to attack or even comment negatively of our club (especially a woman)

Yep, see how you get trampled on here if you dare make a comment deemed to be negative on current issues, coaching, trading or drafting

Sure, reading this forum from afar for a while, there's no doubt that unpopular opionion isn't exactly welcome!

Yep quite often no Welcome Mat here for unpopular opinion

But my view is, that nothing is ever perfect at the Saints. Never has been and never will........It's never been perfect at any club, and never will.

It's the mob attack on the club and assault on the culture and character of the place that has irked me this time.

I guess the recent media coverage has not been very balanced - and it will continue until some in our footy club stop doing the wrong thing. The media are relentless

[Moods]

........I have been a big wrap for Lyon and the footy admin in the past 3 years, but why can't we admit that not everything's perfect at the saints? The only place we seem to be able to admit it is on here where arguments flame. Heaven help anyone not connected to the club who has the audacity to attack or even comment negatively of our club (especially a woman)

Yep, see how you get trampled on here if you dare make a comment deemed to be negative on current issues, coaching, trading or drafting

That's fine - it is a saints web site, and I reckon if you are -ive twds the club, you write that with the expectation that many ppl will take exception to it. Being passionate about something means you are often clouded in your opinions on that subject for many ppl. How often do we see ppl who think their kids are perfect, or couldn't possibly have done the wrong that they are being accused of. When you love someone or something it usually means you always think the absolute best of them. Why do you reckon so many people aren't aware their partners are cheating on em?

[Richter]

Did I miss something?

Every club has problems. Does ours have a Problem?

Perhaps someone can spell it out for me.

What rock have you been under for the last 15 months? Yes every club does have problems and they cop it when they do. It s our turn now to cop it because at the moment we have problems.

For all those who are trying to claim that there is not biased reporting against St Kilda currently, here is a section from the Herald Sun piece....

Olympic Park sports psychologist Jacquie Louder believes St Kilda's inward perspective has the potential to backfire.

She says Riewoldt's speech at the club's annual general meeting this week is an example of St Kilda's siege mentality.

"The world is not against them, the media is trying to make them accountable for once. If they are taking it that everyone is against them, they are kidding themselves," Louder says.

"When they come out and say, 'You won't break us', this is not a war, it's about people and their lives.

"They say their kids are making unacceptable mistakes, but it is coming from the same club every time."

Is that right?

Unacceptable mistakes in the last 4 years like....

- one of your star players failing to report being in a car with a bloke firing bullets wildly out of the window. The same guy murdered one and shot two others a short time later (2007)

- A year later two of your star players (including one involved in the above incident) lie about drink-driving to the president (2008)

- Two of your star players being in separate bashing incidents - alcohol known to be involved (2008 and 2009)

- One of your up and coming guns has sex with a woman who has been implicated in wider allegations involving sex with a police officer, unplanned pregnancy, and group sex (2010)

- Two of your up and coming players present as a woman is allegedly raped (2010)

------------------------

Anyone reading the above litany of problems could surely only come to the conclusion that the club has a problem culture.

Except that the media is not producing opinion piece after opinion piece on this.

Call it what you like - a vendetta; double standards; selective reporting.

It should be obvious to any reasonable observer that comments being stated, unchallenged, like.....

"They say their kids are making unacceptable mistakes, but it is coming from the same club every time."

are BIAS. Pure and simple.

[Johnny Member]

Did I miss something?

Every club has problems. Does ours have a Problem?

Perhaps someone can spell it out for me.

It depends entirely on what you, as an individual consider to be a problem.


From where I stand, the only problem I see is that we haven't been able to seal the deal on Grand Final day for two years in a row!

[plugger66]

Did I miss something?

Every club has problems. Does ours have a Problem?

Perhaps someone can spell it out for me.

What rock have you been under for the last 15 months? Yes every club does have problems and they cop it when they do. It s our turn now to cop it because at the moment we have problems.

For all those who are trying to claim that there is not biased reporting against St Kilda currently, here is a section from the Herald Sun piece....

Olympic Park sports psychologist Jacquie Louder believes St Kilda's inward perspective has the potential to backfire.

She says Riewoldt's speech at the club's annual general meeting this week is an example of St Kilda's siege mentality.

"The world is not against them, the media is trying to make them accountable for once. If they are taking it that everyone is against them, they are kidding themselves," Louder says.

"When they come out and say, 'You won't break us', this is not a war, it's about people and their lives.

"They say their kids are making unacceptable mistakes, but it is coming from the same club every time."

Is that right?

Unacceptable mistakes in the last 4 years like....

- one of your star players failing to report being in a car with a bloke firing bullets wildly out of the window. The same guy murdered one and shot two others a short time later (2007)

- A year later two of your star players (including one involved in the above incident) lie about drink-driving to the president (2008)

- Two of your star players being in separate bashing incidents - alcohol known to be involved (2008 and 2009)

- One of your up and coming guns has sex with a woman who has been implicated in wider allegations involving sex with a police officer, unplanned pregnancy, and group sex (2010)

- Two of your up and coming players present as a woman is allegedly raped (2010)

------------------------

Anyone reading the above litany of problems could surely only come to the conclusion that the club has a problem culture.

Except that the media is not producing opinion piece after opinion piece on this.

Call it what you like - a vendetta; double standards; selective reporting.

It should be obvious to any reasonable observer that comments being stated, unchallenged, like.....

"They say their kids are making unacceptable mistakes, but it is coming from the same club every time."

are BIAS. Pure and simple.

The difference is our is over 15 months and is now. Maybe you dont remember the coverage Didak and Shaw got but in comparsion to what we have got lately it was much bigger.

[Johnny Member]

The difference is our is over 15 months and is now. Maybe you dont remember the coverage Didak and Shaw got but in comparsion to what we have got lately it was much bigger.

But they broke the law and lied publicly.

[plugger66]

The difference is our is over 15 months and is now. Maybe you dont remember the coverage Didak and Shaw got but in comparsion to what we have got lately it was much bigger.

But they broke the law and lied publicly.

I didnt say anything about that. Just stating they got huge coverage.

[Moods]

.

- One of your up and coming guns has sex with a woman who has been implicated in wider allegations involving sex with a police officer, unplanned pregnancy, and group sex (2010)

- Two of your up and coming players present as a woman is allegedly raped (2010)

------------------------

Anyone reading the above litany of problems could surely only come to the conclusion that the club has a problem culture.

Except that the media is not producing opinion piece after opinion piece on this.

Call it what you like - a vendetta; double standards; selective reporting.

It should be obvious to any reasonable observer that comments being stated, unchallenged, like.....

"They say their kids are making unacceptable mistakes, but it is coming from the same club every time."

are BIAS. Pure and simple.

First up, I thought that we were discussing Caroline Wilson's article? Yes that Louder lady they dragged up carried on a bit, and went over the top.

P66 makes a reasonable point though which gets lost in all this. The pies were absolutely crucified around the time of the Didak/Shaw incident. Ironically it was pies supporters complaining of their club being victimised and alleging that the media were going over the top b/c Collingwood sells papers. Sound familiar?

NO-ONE likes to read bad press about their club, ESPECIALLY if you love your club. Even now I hear Eddie banging on about how Caroline Wilson is out to get the pies, and that Fairfax were unfair in their reporting of the Dayne Beams/rape allegation after the GF. My point is EVERYONE thinks they're being victimised when they are the negative news of the day. THis isn't an anti Eddie anti Collingwood thing by me, more an observation of how clubs supporters view themselves. Get on Big Footy and read any of the Bomber or Carlton forums. They will swear the media hate them and are trying to sell newspapers at their clubs expense.

The reality is the media give no-one any favours. If they think they can get a story, they will go in for the kill. Right now WE are the story. Our players need to read the play much better and stay squeaky clean. That might sound unfair but it's a reality.

How any of us can excuse those 3 young blokes getting out on the tear, when their skipper explicitly said 'no alcohol and curfew' is beyond me? Not the crime of the century but after everything the club had been through, no-one would be more acutely aware of the impact of the bad publicity than the players themselves.

[Johnny Member]

.

- One of your up and coming guns has sex with a woman who has been implicated in wider allegations involving sex with a police officer, unplanned pregnancy, and group sex (2010)

- Two of your up and coming players present as a woman is allegedly raped (2010)

------------------------

Anyone reading the above litany of problems could surely only come to the conclusion that the club has a problem culture.

Except that the media is not producing opinion piece after opinion piece on this.

Call it what you like - a vendetta; double standards; selective reporting.

It should be obvious to any reasonable observer that comments being stated, unchallenged, like.....

"They say their kids are making unacceptable mistakes, but it is coming from the same club every time."

are BIAS. Pure and simple.

First up, I thought that we were discussing Caroline Wilson's article? Yes that Louder lady they dragged up carried on a bit, and went over the top.

P66 makes a reasonable point though which gets lost in all this. The pies were absolutely crucified around the time of the Didak/Shaw incident. Ironically it was pies supporters complaining of their club being victimised and alleging that the media were going over the top b/c Collingwood sells papers. Sound familiar?

NO-ONE likes to read bad press about their club, ESPECIALLY if you love your club. Even now I hear Eddie banging on about how Caroline Wilson is out to get the pies, and that Fairfax were unfair in their reporting of the Dayne Beams/rape allegation after the GF. My point is EVERYONE thinks they're being victimised when they are the negative news of the day. THis isn't an anti Eddie anti Collingwood thing by me, more an observation of how clubs supporters view themselves. Get on Big Footy and read any of the Bomber or Carlton forums. They will swear the media hate them and are trying to sell newspapers at their clubs expense.

The reality is the media give no-one any favours. If they think they can get a story, they will go in for the kill. Right now WE are the story. Our players need to read the play much better and stay squeaky clean. That might sound unfair but it's a reality.

How any of us can excuse those 3 young blokes getting out on the tear, when their skipper explicitly said 'no alcohol and curfew' is beyond me? Not the crime of the century but after everything the club had been through, no-one would be more acutely aware of the impact of the bad publicity than the players themselves.

But as I said, they broke the law.

I could possibly understand the outrage had any of our guys broken the law, or even come close to breaking the law - but they haven't.

We've copped it far worse than they did, and they actually something to cop it for!

Come on. Seriously.

A guy dumps a chick.
Guys take photos of each other on a footy trip.
3 fringe players break curfew.
Oh, and Lenny Hayes gets head-butted by a bouncer!


I still can't believe the frenzy over this stuff. It's just ridiculous.

[joffaboy]

Haven't read 5 pages of rubbish, really simple - DON'T READ IT.

i saw the headline, thought - Oh Wilsons stock in trade, gossip mongering and high moralising - mainly because she doesn't understand football - and didn't bother to read it.

What difference does it make? Really Wilson is an irrelevance.

Didn't bother to read the bj story either.

Just disregard it - really it only gives you heartburn if you take her babbling to heart.

It is like Hinch - they have corrupted journalism so far that it is just a comic parlour room game and only to be laughed it.

[Moods]

.

- One of your up and coming guns has sex with a woman who has been implicated in wider allegations involving sex with a police officer, unplanned pregnancy, and group sex (2010)

- Two of your up and coming players present as a woman is allegedly raped (2010)

------------------------

Anyone reading the above litany of problems could surely only come to the conclusion that the club has a problem culture.

Except that the media is not producing opinion piece after opinion piece on this.

Call it what you like - a vendetta; double standards; selective reporting.

It should be obvious to any reasonable observer that comments being stated, unchallenged, like.....

"They say their kids are making unacceptable mistakes, but it is coming from the same club every time."

are BIAS. Pure and simple.

First up, I thought that we were discussing Caroline Wilson's article? Yes that Louder lady they dragged up carried on a bit, and went over the top.

P66 makes a reasonable point though which gets lost in all this. The pies were absolutely crucified around the time of the Didak/Shaw incident. Ironically it was pies supporters complaining of their club being victimised and alleging that the media were going over the top b/c Collingwood sells papers. Sound familiar?

NO-ONE likes to read bad press about their club, ESPECIALLY if you love your club. Even now I hear Eddie banging on about how Caroline Wilson is out to get the pies, and that Fairfax were unfair in their reporting of the Dayne Beams/rape allegation after the GF. My point is EVERYONE thinks they're being victimised when they are the negative news of the day. THis isn't an anti Eddie anti Collingwood thing by me, more an observation of how clubs supporters view themselves. Get on Big Footy and read any of the Bomber or Carlton forums. They will swear the media hate them and are trying to sell newspapers at their clubs expense.

The reality is the media give no-one any favours. If they think they can get a story, they will go in for the kill. Right now WE are the story. Our players need to read the play much better and stay squeaky clean. That might sound unfair but it's a reality.

How any of us can excuse those 3 young blokes getting out on the tear, when their skipper explicitly said 'no alcohol and curfew' is beyond me? Not the crime of the century but after everything the club had been through, no-one would be more acutely aware of the impact of the bad publicity than the players themselves.

But as I said, they broke the law.

I could possibly understand the outrage had any of our guys broken the law, or even come close to breaking the law - but they haven't.

We've copped it far worse than they did, and they actually something to cop it for!

Come on. Seriously.

A guy dumps a chick.
Guys take photos of each other on a footy trip.
3 fringe players break curfew.
Oh, and Lenny Hayes gets head-butted by a bouncer!


I still can't believe the frenzy over this stuff. It's just ridiculous.

A High profile AFL footballer (not just a guy) dumps a chick - the chick is still in high school and is allegedly pregnant to him. No crime of course, but will ALWAYS be a story. Just as it will ALWAYS be a story if a famous actor or media personality is involved in the same thing. Especially if the female involved is as eccentric as the one Gilbert was involved with.

Nude photos of possibly the biggest name in the game. No crime, no real issue, but will ALWAYS be news. Don't deny that if the photos had of been of Chris Judd or Gary Ablett the story wouldn't have been just as big.

3 fringe players break curfew - and are pissed and have mixed prescription medication for an artificial high. You reckon the media ignored Ben Cousins last year when the same thing happened? (except he passed out of course)

Hayes head butted by a bouncer - AFTER Bakes involved in a punch on. In my opinion wasn't reported that intensively. Media appeared more surprised that Lenny was involved in ANYTHING? Stupid by BAKES after the drama he went through last year though. The common theme through all these incidents is stupidity incidentally, rather than criminality.

I don't disagree with you actually. These incidents in isolation or collectively don't change my passion for the saints one iota. Unfortunately these incidents aren't about what I or you think about the saints though. I'm more annoyed because it does affect the club - it may affect sponsorship and it may even affect recruiting. Long term, big picture stuff, the blokes involved will move on, play out their careers with the saints or poss some other club. The club long term WILL be affected if it continues though. WE can all cry out that it's not fair and everyone's doing it and stop being so mean. Some ppl may even listen to you. In the mean time most just think we're undisciplined rabble whether that's completely false or not. AND that it is NEVER good for our club.

So you can keep writing posts proclaiming your love for the saints and how these incidents mean nothing. But in the mean time we have nil major sponsor, a full back suffering from anxiety and who is using prescription meds to get to sleep as a result, a captain responding to barbs from fools in the street, and 3 good young players not available for the next 6 weeks. Is this all the medias' fault? By now I don't care, I just want some of these guys to work out that they are public property and their actions in public do have consequences.[/i]

[matrix]

good lordy!!!

[SainterK]

Well said Moods, opinion should be encouraged, not discouraged.

[Johnny Member]

So you can keep writing posts proclaiming your love for the saints and how these incidents mean nothing. But in the mean time we have nil major sponsor, a full back suffering from anxiety and who is using prescription meds to get to sleep as a result, a captain responding to barbs from fools in the street, and 3 good young players not available for the next 6 weeks. Is this all the medias' fault? By now I don't care, I just want some of these guys to work out that they are public property and their actions in public do have consequences.[/i]

So what are the consequences though?

We miss 3 fringe players for 6 weeks for breaking curfew. The major sponsor thing happens every single time it's up for renewal, there's certainly nothing new there.
As for Dawson suffering anxiety - who's fault is that? If it's purely due to him holding a dinger next to Roo's knob and the public seeing it, then well, he's got to toughen up.
I mean seriously, I'd be more worried about the barrage of Robert Walls articles calling for his head on the field, then the trivial stuff that he cops about the off-field stuff.

Me loving the Saints does not in any way mean that I think others don't. Nor does it mean that I think less of other supporters for their views on this topic.
But for mine, I still, even after reading all this stuff, cannot see what the big deal is.

The media has made it a massive deal, and will continue to do so as long as there's a market for it.
And let's be honest, there always will be, and always has been a market for stories that peddle the 'St Kilda culture' thing.

[InkerSaint]

A High profile AFL footballer (not just a guy) dumps a chick - the chick is still in high school and is allegedly pregnant to him. No crime of course, but will ALWAYS be a story. Just as it will ALWAYS be a story if a famous actor or media personality is involved in the same thing. Especially if the female involved is as eccentric as the one Gilbert was involved with.

Nude photos of possibly the biggest name in the game. No crime, no real issue, but will ALWAYS be news. Don't deny that if the photos had of been of Chris Judd or Gary Ablett the story wouldn't have been just as big.

3 fringe players break curfew - and are pissed and have mixed prescription medication for an artificial high. You reckon the media ignored Ben Cousins last year when the same thing happened? (except he passed out of course)

Hayes head butted by a bouncer - AFTER Bakes involved in a punch on. In my opinion wasn't reported that intensively. Media appeared more surprised that Lenny was involved in ANYTHING? Stupid by BAKES after the drama he went through last year though. The common theme through all these incidents is stupidity incidentally, rather than criminality.

I don't disagree with you actually. These incidents in isolation or collectively don't change my passion for the saints one iota. Unfortunately these incidents aren't about what I or you think about the saints though. I'm more annoyed because it does affect the club - it may affect sponsorship and it may even affect recruiting. Long term, big picture stuff, the blokes involved will move on, play out their careers with the saints or poss some other club. The club long term WILL be affected if it continues though. WE can all cry out that it's not fair and everyone's doing it and stop being so mean. Some ppl may even listen to you. In the mean time most just think we're undisciplined rabble whether that's completely false or not. AND that it is NEVER good for our club.

So you can keep writing posts proclaiming your love for the saints and how these incidents mean nothing. But in the mean time we have nil major sponsor, a full back suffering from anxiety and who is using prescription meds to get to sleep as a result, a captain responding to barbs from fools in the street, and 3 good young players not available for the next 6 weeks. Is this all the medias' fault? By now I don't care, I just want some of these guys to work out that they are public property and their actions in public do have consequences.[/i]

None of which means the club has a culture problem.

The media are allowed to write their trashy beat-ups.

We're allowed to call BS.

Mmmkay?

[I Love Peter Kiel]

C. Wilson has become as ridiculous as Catherine Deveney (one of the reasons I stopped my Age subscription). Maybe it time for Wilson to get the 'lemon and sarse" as well!

[SaintPav]

C. Wilson has become as ridiculous as Catherine Deveney (one of the reasons I stopped my Age subscription). Maybe it time for Wilson to get the 'lemon and sarse" as well!

C Wilson's article was very one sided.

All of THESE comments have merit.

[3rd generation saint]

As I said in my other posts, our players have done stupid things, but they didn't do anything illegal, they didn't damage any property or hurt anybody, other than maybe themselves.
What pisses me off is that these stories are sensationalised because as far as the media is concerned we have the same culture we had 30 years of being a party club with no discipline etc.
The only thing that will change that point of view is premierships.
As some people point out, the Eagles had lots of off field problems and just won the wooden spoon, however they have also won premierships and that makes their misdemeanors more accepatble than others.
Same goes for Carlton, Essendon, Hawthorn etc.
Let's remember that another unsuccesful team, Western Bulldogs we're banned from Qantas after an incident on an international flight some years ago, again, much worse than anything we have done.

[stinger]

........I have been a big wrap for Lyon and the footy admin in the past 3 years, but why can't we admit that not everything's perfect at the saints? The only place we seem to be able to admit it is on here where arguments flame. Heaven help anyone not connected to the club who has the audacity to attack or even comment negatively of our club (especially a woman)

Yep, see how you get trampled on here if you dare make a comment deemed to be negative on current issues, coaching, trading or drafting

Sure, reading this forum from afar for a while, there's no doubt that unpopular opionion isn't exactly welcome!

But i'm sure you'll get over it!


But my view is, that nothing is ever perfect at the Saints. Never has been and never will.

But....It's never been perfect at any club, and never will.


It's the mob attack on the club and assault on the culture and character of the place that has irked me this time.

It's the fact that no damage to society has been done at all. No laws broken, no unsavoury behaviour, nothing viscious or nasty and nothing that every club has done and still does.

And on top of this, we're a team that is one of (if not the) fittest in the comp who has played in the past 2 grand finals. It's not as if there a bunch of undisciplined slugs wallowing on the bottom of the ladder partying on.


I'm not sure what people expect from a footy club. For mine, I expect guys to be fit, keen and come out on weekends like animals and wear the red, white and black like I always wante to as a kid.


And these guys do that.


If anyone wants a bunch of guys that don't drink, don't have sex, don't stay out late, don't do stuff that every guy does and always has done - then I don't know why you follow the footy! Cause that's what happens!

If they're breaking the law or being outright arseholes, then I could understand some concern from those who expect a certain moral standard from guys who happen to be good at sport (even though I don't), but our guys aren't!

It's not as if they're out beating up defenceless cabbies, or riding in cars with murderers etc.

good post....