Ross Lyon is a flawed genius

[stinger]

The only young Saint who has undoubtedly made it since Lyon started coaching is Sam Gilbert, and he had already been at the club one season and had been given a taste of AFL football.

I would have said that McEvoy had made it too, but we must remember that he (unlike Robert Eddy!!) wasn't considered good enough to play in a GF until Gardi was injured.

CJ has come off the rookie list to become an established player, but he is actually older than some of our long-established senior players (Dal, Gram, BJ, even Schneider).

Gwilt and McQualter don't count IMO: both were already fringe senior players when Lyon arrived at the club. However, Lyon has certainly done an excellent job at bringing these guys along (leaving aside McQualter's piss poor 2010), as well as CJ and (when he's fit) Raph.

You might say that it's a case of younger players not being needed when a side is doing well. However, the management of younger and fringe players was different in the 2004-06 period. I can recall players like Raph, Sam Fisher, Montagna, BJ, Barry Brooks, Sam Gilbert, Gwilt and others getting picked for big, meaningful games (including finals) when they had failed to prove themselves any more convincingly than Armo, Steven, Stanley and co. in recent years.

Of course we had a lot of injuries in the 2004-06 era, so we were arguably forced to play more youngsters. Nevertheless, nobody could surely deny that Lyon has shown a bit of a reluctance to "blood" the youngsters.

This obviously hasn't been a problem up to now (we made and almost won two GFs in two years FFS). But I think the time has more or less come when we need one or two of the younger blokes to fire. I reckon the trick is to pick a couple of the most likely and give them a sustained run in the top 22.

If it were up to me, I'd start by focusing on Armo and Stanley, with Steven and Walsh next in the queue. These are the four I've seen who look to have something special. I reckon Geary ought to be in our top 22 anyway: he's always been better value than the likes of Eddy (and possibly McQualter and even CJ as well).

kossi had big wraps for nick heyne at the start of the year,,,,said he was going to be the next big thing at the saints......i'm still waiting kossi......and hoping...


just one kid who could win a rising star nomination this year would be great too.....

[BAM! (shhhh)]

...

Of course we had a lot of injuries in the 2004-06 era, so we were arguably forced to play more youngsters. Nevertheless, nobody could surely deny that Lyon has shown a bit of a reluctance to "blood" the youngsters.

...

Apologies for cherrypicking MB, I wanted the lead in more than to disagree with you...

I might argue that Lyon just doesn't see the act of "blooding" a player as specifically important. I get the impression that with Lyon, the now (in?)famous "4-year apprenticeship" is less about the 4 years, and more about making the process an unspectacular grind from the highlight reels of the kids.

I suspect that regardless of who drafted them, Lyon would look at both Gwilt and McQualter as successes of the current regime. He'd likely also put for Geary and McEvoy, regardless of their late omissions. He'd include Jones regardless of age, and I suspect he'd include Schneider and Farren Ray even though they started their careers elsewhere.

If the criticism is that Lyon hasn't drafted anyone who's gone on the a 3-vote performance, then it's true. However, I very strongly get the impression that Ross Lyon wouldn't rate that as a problem.

Some rate rising star nominations as important. Some want 2 players to be worked into the list every year, and many look at the draft as a direct opportunity to improve next years team. I suspect Ross Lyon doesn't subscribe to any of these 3 views.

I'm not sure. I do think he's earned enough rope to walk himself to the inevitable cliff of the eventual retirements of the 2001 draft class.

[rodgerfox]

i reckon RL is a bit orwellian. too much faith in the system of control. i know saints in the past have been way too rock'n'roll and we DEFINITELY needed some system. but have lurched too far in search of the dream? A society that went from years of anarchy to an over-reaching Brave New World Order?

Perhaps.

Or he could be just a middle aged man, with thinning hair, strong ideas and a stubborn disposition

you might just be onto something there....

I've never heard of a successful sporting coach who managed by consensus.....

Actually had a chat with a recent ex-Saints assistant coach who worked under Lyon.
Is good mates with a mutual friend.


It's not coincidence that that we've lost assitants left, right and centre.

[SainterK]

Welcome back Kotter

[Dr Spaceman]

i reckon RL is a bit orwellian. too much faith in the system of control. i know saints in the past have been way too rock'n'roll and we DEFINITELY needed some system. but have lurched too far in search of the dream? A society that went from years of anarchy to an over-reaching Brave New World Order?

Perhaps.

Or he could be just a middle aged man, with thinning hair, strong ideas and a stubborn disposition

you might just be onto something there....

I've never heard of a successful sporting coach who managed by consensus.....

Actually had a chat with a recent ex-Saints assistant coach who worked under Lyon.
Is good mates with a mutual friend.


It's not coincidence that that we've lost assitants left, right and centre.

Just had a chat with someone who has never been at the Saints and in fact wouldn't even know who Ross Lyon is.

It's not coincidence that the cost of power bills is going up.

Carry on........

[stinger]

name names.....or else no one is going to believe you....

[asiu]

helllllllo rodge

merry christmas to you too.

how are those little saints supporters doing ?

[stinger]

helllllllo rodge

merry christmas to you too.

how are those little saints supporters doing ?

nice to see you posting on here gazza.....


ps...don't get into a flame war with r f ffs....

[asiu]

i love the fox.

a huge soft spot in fact.

saintnsational at its very best.

in fact , fwiw , one of my personal favourites.

[stinger]

i love the fox.

a huge soft spot in fact.

saintnsational at its very best.

in fact , fwiw , one of my personal favourites.

good to hear.......

[BAM! (shhhh)]

i reckon RL is a bit orwellian. too much faith in the system of control. i know saints in the past have been way too rock'n'roll and we DEFINITELY needed some system. but have lurched too far in search of the dream? A society that went from years of anarchy to an over-reaching Brave New World Order?

Perhaps.

Or he could be just a middle aged man, with thinning hair, strong ideas and a stubborn disposition

you might just be onto something there....

I've never heard of a successful sporting coach who managed by consensus.....

Actually had a chat with a recent ex-Saints assistant coach who worked under Lyon.
Is good mates with a mutual friend.


It's not coincidence that that we've lost assitants left, right and centre.

Don't buy into the conspiracy theories - that's how they get ya!

[BAM! (shhhh)]

i reckon RL is a bit orwellian. too much faith in the system of control. i know saints in the past have been way too rock'n'roll and we DEFINITELY needed some system. but have lurched too far in search of the dream? A society that went from years of anarchy to an over-reaching Brave New World Order?

Having come back across this today, the above is my favorite saintsational post. Ever.

from Wikipedia:
"Orwellian" describes the situation, idea, or societal condition that George Orwell identified as being destructive to the welfare of a free society. It connotes an attitude and a policy of control by propaganda, surveillance, misinformation, denial of truth, and manipulation of the past, including the "unperson" — a person whose past existence is expunged from the public record and memory, practiced by modern repressive governments. Often, this includes the circumstances depicted in his novels, particularly Nineteen Eighty-Four.

Pleasing. Very pleasing indeed.

[Dr Spaceman]

i reckon RL is a bit orwellian. too much faith in the system of control. i know saints in the past have been way too rock'n'roll and we DEFINITELY needed some system. but have lurched too far in search of the dream? A society that went from years of anarchy to an over-reaching Brave New World Order?

Having come back across this today, the above is my favorite saintsational post. Ever.

from Wikipedia:
"Orwellian" describes the situation, idea, or societal condition that George Orwell identified as being destructive to the welfare of a free society. It connotes an attitude and a policy of control by propaganda, surveillance, misinformation, denial of truth, and manipulation of the past, including the "unperson" — a person whose past existence is expunged from the public record and memory, practiced by modern repressive governments. Often, this includes the circumstances depicted in his novels, particularly Nineteen Eighty-Four.

Pleasing. Very pleasing indeed.

Yep, that sums up Ross to a tee.

OR, as I posted before, he could be just a middle aged man, with thinning hair, strong ideas and a stubborn disposition

[BAM! (shhhh)]

i reckon RL is a bit orwellian. too much faith in the system of control. i know saints in the past have been way too rock'n'roll and we DEFINITELY needed some system. but have lurched too far in search of the dream? A society that went from years of anarchy to an over-reaching Brave New World Order?

Having come back across this today, the above is my favorite saintsational post. Ever.

from Wikipedia:
"Orwellian" describes the situation, idea, or societal condition that George Orwell identified as being destructive to the welfare of a free society. It connotes an attitude and a policy of control by propaganda, surveillance, misinformation, denial of truth, and manipulation of the past, including the "unperson" — a person whose past existence is expunged from the public record and memory, practiced by modern repressive governments. Often, this includes the circumstances depicted in his novels, particularly Nineteen Eighty-Four.

Pleasing. Very pleasing indeed.

Yep, that sums up Ross to a tee.

OR, as I posted before, he could be just a middle aged man, with thinning hair, strong ideas and a stubborn disposition

I suppose it's not exclusive - Lyon can spend years as a megalomaniac brainwashing us all with ideas of "Structure" and "Preparation" to an eventual redemption by trying to heroically get a young girl back to her home in the balloon they construct together...

that sounds so much more sinister in a contemporary setting...

[Con Gorozidis]

i reckon RL is a bit orwellian. too much faith in the system of control. i know saints in the past have been way too rock'n'roll and we DEFINITELY needed some system. but have lurched too far in search of the dream? A society that went from years of anarchy to an over-reaching Brave New World Order?

Perhaps.

Or he could be just a middle aged man, with thinning hair, strong ideas and a stubborn disposition

you might just be onto something there....

I've never heard of a successful sporting coach who managed by consensus.....

Actually had a chat with a recent ex-Saints assistant coach who worked under Lyon.
Is good mates with a mutual friend.


It's not coincidence that that we've lost assitants left, right and centre.

you dnot need to name names. no journo would so wjy should u - this is a published forum. but can u provide a general explanation?

my theory is he places ideology and the system above common sense in a kind of orwellian way. the system reflects his own ego fantasy (working class vanilla reservoir upbringing) approach. this "idea" can get in the way of common sense and practicality and can stifle dissent or different views.


it is good to have belief in a system - it emboldens followers and gives confidence. but u can overstep this and become beligenerent to te poont that ur followers are disempowered and u can be left alone.

thats why i think the saints need a bit of ROCK N ROLL in 2011!

Saints Footy 2011 - bringing back the rock n roll!

[Dr Spaceman]

...my theory is he places ideology and the system above common sense in a kind of orwellian way. the system reflects his own ego fantasy (working class vanilla reservoir upbringing) approach. this "idea" can get in the way of common sense and practicality and can stifle dissent or different views.


it is good to have belief in a system - it emboldens followers and gives confidence. but u can overstep this and become beligenerent to te poont that ur followers are disempowered and u can be left alone.

thats why i think the saints need a bit of ROCK N ROLL in 2011!

Saints Footy 2011 - bringing back the rock n roll!

Con, is THIS you

[rodgerfox]

i reckon RL is a bit orwellian. too much faith in the system of control. i know saints in the past have been way too rock'n'roll and we DEFINITELY needed some system. but have lurched too far in search of the dream? A society that went from years of anarchy to an over-reaching Brave New World Order?

Perhaps.

Or he could be just a middle aged man, with thinning hair, strong ideas and a stubborn disposition

you might just be onto something there....

I've never heard of a successful sporting coach who managed by consensus.....

Actually had a chat with a recent ex-Saints assistant coach who worked under Lyon.
Is good mates with a mutual friend.


It's not coincidence that that we've lost assitants left, right and centre.

you dnot need to name names. no journo would so wjy should u - this is a published forum. but can u provide a general explanation?

my theory is he places ideology and the system above common sense in a kind of orwellian way. the system reflects his own ego fantasy (working class vanilla reservoir upbringing) approach. this "idea" can get in the way of common sense and practicality and can stifle dissent or different views.


it is good to have belief in a system - it emboldens followers and gives confidence. but u can overstep this and become beligenerent to te poont that ur followers are disempowered and u can be left alone.

thats why i think the saints need a bit of ROCK N ROLL in 2011!

Saints Footy 2011 - bringing back the rock n roll!

At one point, he used these exact words....

"You just can't work with the bloke"

[plugger66]

i reckon RL is a bit orwellian. too much faith in the system of control. i know saints in the past have been way too rock'n'roll and we DEFINITELY needed some system. but have lurched too far in search of the dream? A society that went from years of anarchy to an over-reaching Brave New World Order?

Perhaps.

Or he could be just a middle aged man, with thinning hair, strong ideas and a stubborn disposition

you might just be onto something there....

I've never heard of a successful sporting coach who managed by consensus.....

Actually had a chat with a recent ex-Saints assistant coach who worked under Lyon.
Is good mates with a mutual friend.


It's not coincidence that that we've lost assitants left, right and centre.

you dnot need to name names. no journo would so wjy should u - this is a published forum. but can u provide a general explanation?

my theory is he places ideology and the system above common sense in a kind of orwellian way. the system reflects his own ego fantasy (working class vanilla reservoir upbringing) approach. this "idea" can get in the way of common sense and practicality and can stifle dissent or different views.


it is good to have belief in a system - it emboldens followers and gives confidence. but u can overstep this and become beligenerent to te poont that ur followers are disempowered and u can be left alone.

thats why i think the saints need a bit of ROCK N ROLL in 2011!

Saints Footy 2011 - bringing back the rock n roll!

At one point, he used these exact words....

"You just can't work with the bloke"

Funny that. I spoke to a now ex coach GF night and he had loved his time at the saints. Also spoken to a couple of current coaches who love it to. So does that make your one guy right or my 3 guys right?

[Dr Spaceman]

i reckon RL is a bit orwellian. too much faith in the system of control. i know saints in the past have been way too rock'n'roll and we DEFINITELY needed some system. but have lurched too far in search of the dream? A society that went from years of anarchy to an over-reaching Brave New World Order?

Perhaps.

Or he could be just a middle aged man, with thinning hair, strong ideas and a stubborn disposition

you might just be onto something there....

I've never heard of a successful sporting coach who managed by consensus.....

Actually had a chat with a recent ex-Saints assistant coach who worked under Lyon.
Is good mates with a mutual friend.


It's not coincidence that that we've lost assitants left, right and centre.

you dnot need to name names. no journo would so wjy should u - this is a published forum. but can u provide a general explanation?

my theory is he places ideology and the system above common sense in a kind of orwellian way. the system reflects his own ego fantasy (working class vanilla reservoir upbringing) approach. this "idea" can get in the way of common sense and practicality and can stifle dissent or different views.


it is good to have belief in a system - it emboldens followers and gives confidence. but u can overstep this and become beligenerent to te poont that ur followers are disempowered and u can be left alone.

thats why i think the saints need a bit of ROCK N ROLL in 2011!

Saints Footy 2011 - bringing back the rock n roll!

At one point, he used these exact words....

"You just can't work with the bloke"

Ross may have said the same thing about your mate's mate!

[SainterK]

At one point, he used these exact words....

"You just can't work with the bloke"