The 'Over Reliance on Roo' Thread

[SainterK]

I think this shows significant flaws in the way our team has been built.

The logic is flawed in the assertion that Lyon has only tried to build a forward line based on Roo.

Quite rightly he has tried to make the most out of one of competitions best players.

But this whole idea that Lyon is only foccussing only Roo is just completely mistaken based on the facts.

For example:

* 3 talls with GTrain, Kosi and Roo was tried.
* Kosi has been used as a No 2 Banana to Roo as the No1 Banana.
* A number of players have been tried to play in the third forward role vacated by the prematurely retired Hamill.
... * Charlie Gardiner. Ok-ish but could not kick goals
... * Gwilt was given an extended run last year, but like Charlie could not score goals
... *Dempster
* J Allen recruited but forced out by a freak hip injury. Most likely would have been hitting his straps in our forward line now.
* Stanley who was touted as a future ruckman last year in 2010 has been groomed instead as a future forward. The decision to do this was made well prior to Roo's injury.
* Other young forwards have been recruited in Lynch, Cahill, Heyne and Archer all picked up recently.
* T Walsh recuited as an International Rookie as a potential future key forward.
* With a "third forward" not playing well another three small forward structure of Milne, Schneider and Mini was deployed.
* Last trade period Lovett was recuited to be another attacking goal-scoring option and path to goals.



Any "neutral" review of Lyon's actions would reveal that Lyon has endeavoured to build a multi-facetted forward line.

That Lyon has also in that period sought to maximise the extreme talent of Roo is hardly surprising to all bar one.

Lyon may have tried to build a multi-faceted forward line - and so he freakin' should. He's the head coach for god's sake.

Fact is - he hasn't.


As for maximising Roo's talent....again of course he should. But it's not just about getting Roo to play well, it's about us winning a flag and being successful for an extended period of time.

It's about maximising every player's abilities to make than happen. At this stage it's a big fail in this area.

Lots of suckers (including you) spoke at lengths of Lyon building a 'team' that didn't rely on individuals like his predecessor.
Apparently, this was a big no-no and we needed a much more team focussed approach where individual players weren't relied upon for their brilliance to win us games.

The worrying thing is, we managed to nearly pinch a prelim with 6 of our starting 18 not playing under the 'individual brilliance' approach - but can't beat Port and Carlton with 1 player missing!!


I believe we're more reliant on individual brilliance now, than we've ever been before.

I just think you're going a little early though Rodger...

Also Gram and Farren were missing from the Port game from memory?

[saintsRrising]

Lots of suckers (including you) spoke at lengths of Lyon building a 'team' that didn't rely on individuals like his predecessor.
.

Now you are making up things again RF with respect to my posts. I never wrote any such thing. I don't why you are fixated on making up things about my past posts but you do so often.

You never substantiate your "claims" .

For the record while I have read some saying that you can slot anyone into our gameplan and not miss a beat at all I was not one of them. While for example the Hawks win last year was good, it was also against a very depleted Hawks.

A well drilled team will however certainly mask defiencies better than a poorly drilled one anda well drilled team with high work-rate will always increase you chances of winning.

Elite players are always important. You cannot be successful without a group of elite players as part of your team.

Gampelans are also very importnant, as are many factors.

My posts have always been about getting as many things right as possible...and that any one team will always have some form of weakness.

A team with stars with a good gameplan and high workrate will be better than a team with stars with a poor gameplan and poor workrate.

Our current slump is evidence of that. The players workrate has slipped and our gameplan is not as large an advantage as it was last year.

Lyon has the challenge to evolve his gameplan (which he has done in the past) and to re-engage his players committment and workrate. Such is a coaches lot.

While we are missing Ro at present IMO we are missing more our workrate.

[rodgerfox]

Lots of suckers (including you) spoke at lengths of Lyon building a 'team' that didn't rely on individuals like his predecessor.
.

Now you are making up things again RF with respect to my posts. I never wrote any such thing.

You're saying you've never said that Lyon is building a 'team' (and bolded the word 'team') and said that previously we relied on individual brilliance?

Is that what you're saying?

[saintsRrising]

It's about maximising every player's abilities to make than happen.
.

It's not just about that..

The "streak" ended not due to lack of the players abilitities, but due to opposition clubs changing their tactics against us and in exposing the flaws that were in the team and it's gameplan.

Part of this was opposition coaches realising if they could control the Saints when the Saints had an "attacking period" that the opposition could then score at will when the game swaung their way.

You cannot be a successful team without getting many many aspects correct.

[saintsRrising]

Lots of suckers (including you) spoke at lengths of Lyon building a 'team' that didn't rely on individuals like his predecessor.
.

Now you are making up things again RF with respect to my posts. I never wrote any such thing.

You're saying you've never said that Lyon is building a 'team' (and bolded the word 'team') and said that previously we relied on individual brilliance?

Is that what you're saying?

Do you EVER actually quote entirely what a person has posted rather than picking out fragments?

[saintsRrising]

Can we now say that we've rolled the dice over the past 18 months by building a game plan around one guy?

By the way RF this was your OP.

Facts have now been detailed to discount your assetion.

As usual with RF 101 you are now just trying to shift and deflect away.

[rodgerfox]

The "streak" ended not due to lack of the players abilitities, but due to opposition clubs changing their tactics against us and in exposing the flaws that were in the team and it's gameplan.

That's absolute nonsense.

'The streak' as some silly people like to put it, ended for a couple of reasons.

It ended because Grant Thomas felt we were becoming reliant on certain individuals in their roles. Aussie Jones as a running back was one of them for example.

In the Bulldogs game, he tried X in that role as he felt we needed more than one guy able to play such a key role. What if Aussie did his hammy prior to the finals? Then what?

Thomas didn't want us relying on individuals but wanted several players be able to play different roles should injury hit at important times.

I spoke to Thomas about this. This is a fact.

Players learning new roles, in addition to us being hit with injury, in addition to young bodies fatiguing was why 'the streak' ended.
Nothing that opposition coaches did post 'streak', wasn't attempted pre-streak. The difference was that without key players being in the team, and with the intensity being down these strategies worked at times.

By the time the finals came around in 2004, we were able to beat Brisbane then nearly beat Port. We peaked very well.

This approach meant when we lost 6 of our starting 18 players in 2005 that we were able to cover them pretty darn well.

We see with us now what injuries to 1 or 2 important players can do - back then we won finals with 6 missing!

You cannot be a successful team without getting many many aspects correct.

No shiit.

I still wonder why you started a thread stating that rookies was 'the' reason we were struggling back in 06.

[rodgerfox]

Can we now say that we've rolled the dice over the past 18 months by building a game plan around one guy?

By the way RF this was your OP.

Facts have now been detailed to discount your assetion.

????

[bob__71]

So if we all say grant is great and Ross whilst rather good is not fit to polish Grants shoes will you then leave us all alone. And while you are talking to Grant next time could you please tell him that we all admit he is the best and could he please leave us alone as well.

[rodgerfox]

So if we all say grant is great and Ross whilst rather good is not fit to polish Grants shoes will you then leave us all alone. And while you are talking to Grant next time could you please tell him that we all admit he is the best and could he please leave us alone as well.

Grant wasn't great.

Why would think he is great?

[bob__71]

So if we all say grant is great and Ross whilst rather good is not fit to polish Grants shoes will you then leave us all alone. And while you are talking to Grant next time could you please tell him that we all admit he is the best and could he please leave us alone as well.

Grant wasn't great.

Why would think he is great?

I thought you would think he is great because he has a very similar aloof better than everyone else attitude just like yourself.

[saintsRrising]

I still wonder why you started a thread stating that rookies was 'the' reason we were struggling back in 06.

Ah..RF at work again..

You really have absolutely no compunction about making up stuff do you???


Yes I did raise that lack of use of rookie system was one reason why the Saints were not as good as they could have been.

I wrote a post after WC won the flag and detailed the extremely large number of the rookies and ex-rookies in their team compared to the Saints who had a very barren use of the rookie system at that period. Milne being rookie from a previous regime making the Saints record in this era look even more grim.

Noted the media later wrote similar on WC.

Do you know how many rookie developed players were in the Blues Team that beat us this week ? Count them up. You might be surprised. I wasn't.

[rodgerfox]

So if we all say grant is great and Ross whilst rather good is not fit to polish Grants shoes will you then leave us all alone. And while you are talking to Grant next time could you please tell him that we all admit he is the best and could he please leave us alone as well.

Grant wasn't great.

Why would think he is great?

I thought you would think he is great because he has a very similar aloof better than everyone else attitude just like yourself.

If you bothered to read what I write rather than wasting your time with constant poor attempts at sarcasm and patronisation, you wouldn't think that at all.

It's very clear what I think of 'Grant'.

[samoht]

The fact our workrate seemingly slips every time we play a very fast side... has got to be more than just a coincidence... a lowered workrate could be a symptom of being slow.

We need to fight pace with pace ... bring in some quick running players from the VFL ..the introduction of quicker players will also lift our workrate our tackling and chasing pressure and we'll get to more loose ball gets too..

[saintsRrising]

The fact our workrate seemingly slips every time we play a very fast side... has got to be more than just a coincidence... a lowered workrate could be a symptom of being slow.

We need to fight pace with pace ... bring in some quick running players from the VFL ..the introduction of quicker players will also lift our workrate our tackling and chasing pressure.

Partially agree there....but it is more than just pace.

Also if you win more contested ball in the first place the oppositions pace is not as big a factor.

I have wanted more pace in the team for a while. Though RF will claim that I only said one thing ata time....

[saintsRrising]

I spoke to Thomas about this. This is a fact.
.

Two delusional guys speaking, just makes for a bigger delusion.

[SainterK]

Curious as to what Grant's got to do with the over reliance on Roo?

You don't have to convince me RF, however I haven't thrown up my hands in despair that the team isn't capable of rising above it...

[markp]

Curious as to what Grant's got to do with the over reliance on Roo?

Apparently we nearly won a flag in 2005 with 6 of our starting 18 out... and the fact that we've now lost 2 games early in the season with 1 or 2 out proves something conclusive, relevant and important about some GT vs RL thing.....

[rodgerfox]

Curious as to what Grant's got to do with the over reliance on Roo?

SrR used 'the streak' as a bad example (again he seems to think that if he can convince everyone that Lyon is better than GT it will vindicate his incorrect opinions from back then), to which I responded. Obviously Thomas was coach then - hence his name being used.

You don't have to convince me RF, however I haven't thrown up my hands in despair that the team isn't capable of rising above it...

I haven't seen anything over the past 18 months to suggest it's just 'gonna happen'.

That's what concerns me.

[SainterK]

Curious as to what Grant's got to do with the over reliance on Roo?

SrR used 'the streak' as a bad example (again he seems to think that if he can convince everyone that Lyon is better than GT it will vindicate his incorrect opinions from back then), to which I responded. Obviously Thomas was coach then - hence his name being used.

You don't have to convince me RF, however I haven't thrown up my hands in despair that the team isn't capable of rising above it...

I haven't seen anything over the past 18 months to suggest it's just 'gonna happen'.

That's what concerns me.

I understand that your concerned, but the Freo game must of given you some indication that it can be done?

I will do my best to give you some facts to ponder over a nice cup of tea.

The week following the Freo game, both Ray and Gram missed through injury against Port.

Ray returned against the Dogs, but it could be said that he found his form again on Monday night.

Gram returned Monday, and I expect him to be better for the run this week as well.

Provided Armo returns to assist Lenny with the clearances this week, this will mean that it's the first opportunity to setup similar to what worked that first complete game without Roo.

I am hoping Goddard pushes forward, he famously got a bit of negative press for being a bit excited that game.

On reflection though, that spark is exactly the tonic needed right now, and I think Goddard forward will provide that.

[SainterK]

PS

[markp]

Yup, the 'Freo model' seems to be the pick... Milne and BJ kicking 5 goals a piece wasn't it?... Easy!

[plugger66]

Nothing but negative crap again RF without positive to say. I think people should do what I have decided to do because he is obviously baiting and everytime he comes on here with either a question or negative crap ask him for some positive answers to his negative crap. He will either go away or show he has some footy brain and give some solutions for a change.

So RF for at least the 10th time in 2 days do you have any ideas that may make us play better?

[bob__71]

Curious as to what Grant's got to do with the over reliance on Roo?

SrR used 'the streak' as a bad example (again he seems to think that if he can convince everyone that Lyon is better than GT it will vindicate his incorrect opinions from back then), to which I responded. Obviously Thomas was coach then - hence his name being used.

You don't have to convince me RF, however I haven't thrown up my hands in despair that the team isn't capable of rising above it...

I haven't seen anything over the past 18 months to suggest it's just 'gonna happen'.

That's what concerns me.

Name one premiership that "just happened" are you saying that our team and coaching staff are so slack and stupid that they think it will just happen.


And if you wernt comparing RL and GT then why did you just happen to raise the fact that the streak ended because GT felt he needed to stop a single point dependency. I guess that had nothing to do with you little Grant is better than Ross thing when it was in a tread you started about dependancy on Roo.

And please stop the insulting thank you.

[saintsRrising]

Curious as to what Grant's got to do with the over reliance on Roo?

SrR used 'the streak' as a bad example (again he seems to think that if he can convince everyone that Lyon is better than GT it will vindicate his incorrect opinions from back then), to which I responded. Obviously Thomas was coach then - hence his name being used.
.

Actually RF you raised the previous regime first. You know your "individual brilliance" red-herring.

Please try and keep up with your own thread and red-herrings.