Cuz and Gardi

[st.byron]

That is completely ill-informed. Taking drugs is a choice, granted. And many people - assuming a youth misspent according to the usual modern standards - make that choice. Not everyone becomes addicted. Addiction is a poorly understood disease. The sooner people start accepting that as a fact and not some airy-fairy explanation for things they couldn't be bothered enquiring about, the better.

Blind ignorance on the topic of addiction s***s me.

Show some respect for human frailty, for f**** sake.

Not everyone's a good two shoes robot. And thank christ for that.

Good post Thinline. I've struggled with addictions of various sorts since I was a teenager.
Yep, every time I engage in addictive behaviour it's my choice. And every time it feels out of control and like I have no choice. The reasons for addcitive / compulsive behaviour are many and can be complex. It's very easy to judge addictive behaviour from outside looking in.
Just for the record, apart from a short but fairly committed dope smoking addiction in my early 20's (48 now), I've never done illicit drugs, done illegal stuff or knowingly caused harm to others.

[Q5]

While watching last night, I felt the smirky arrogance only seemed to be in the 'flashbacks' or media pics - I didn't think that was displayed as blatantly when he was saying his piece in the 'grey suit'. That said, the more I thought about it, the more I realised that the drugs were just the end result of deeper psychological issues and that they are what really need to be dealt with in order for him to maintain some semblance of normality. Suffering mental illness myself and tendencies towards obsessiveness, I can completely understand how he could have spiralled so completely out of control - despite the fact that he thought he was 'controlling' it. Football and sport was portrayed as a positive force in his life and though next year he won't be playing at the top level, I think that he is in a better 'headspace' to deal with it now, than he was two years ago. I am pleased that he appears to be staying in Melbourne next year as he no longer has the 'Prince of Perth' mantle to carry and really hope he can continue to find other avenues to find that 'release' that he seems to crave. I wish him luck and am looking forward to seeing tonight's episode.

[AccidentallyTim]

That is completely ill-informed. Taking drugs is a choice, granted. And many people - assuming a youth misspent according to the usual modern standards - make that choice. Not everyone becomes addicted. Addiction is a poorly understood disease. The sooner people start accepting that as a fact and not some airy-fairy explanation for things they couldn't be bothered enquiring about, the better.

Blind ignorance on the topic of addiction s***s me.

Show some respect for human frailty, for f**** sake.

Not everyone's a good two shoes robot. And thank christ for that.

+1

[HardSaint]

I didnt watch it last night but reading of the comments and a few chats at work it seems once again the culture of drugs (performance and recreational) at West Coast has not been mentioned.
Many have spoken about the teams of the early 90s and the worst kept secret about steroids being openly used and accepted amongst the playing group so much so that the Eagles of the early 90s have been like called the "East Germany' of the AFL. This is obviously something the AFL doesnt want too much retrospective evaluation on, but it makes the situation of Cousins and moreso his buddy Chris Mainwaring that much more understandable when there has been a tradition of acceptance of drugs as a means to an end and something that has gained a level of acceptance amongst the peer group.

[plugger66]

I didnt watch it last night but reading of the comments and a few chats at work it seems once again the culture of drugs (performance and recreational) at West Coast has not been mentioned.
Many have spoken about the teams of the early 90s and the worst kept secret about steroids being openly used and accepted amongst the playing group so much so that the Eagles of the early 90s have been like called the "East Germany' of the AFL. This is obviously something the AFL doesnt want too much retrospective evaluation on, but it makes the situation of Cousins and moreso his buddy Chris Mainwaring that much more understandable when there has been a tradition of acceptance of drugs as a means to an end and something that has gained a level of acceptance amongst the peer group.

It is obvious they had a drug problem but I dont think it was performance enhancing drugs.

[SainterK]

Think the editing was very poor of the doco itself, and a lot of what people are judging him on was 2008 video diaries. Pretty much everything except for the grey suit clips, I am led to understand was filmed prior to 'rock bottom' ?

I actually think St Kilda rejecting him was an important part of his journey, not sure if everything had entirely hit home just yet, that he thought he would be picked up quite easily.

I about to watch the second segment, and wonder if this will be the case.

[HardSaint]

I didnt watch it last night but reading of the comments and a few chats at work it seems once again the culture of drugs (performance and recreational) at West Coast has not been mentioned.
Many have spoken about the teams of the early 90s and the worst kept secret about steroids being openly used and accepted amongst the playing group so much so that the Eagles of the early 90s have been like called the "East Germany' of the AFL. This is obviously something the AFL doesnt want too much retrospective evaluation on, but it makes the situation of Cousins and moreso his buddy Chris Mainwaring that much more understandable when there has been a tradition of acceptance of drugs as a means to an end and something that has gained a level of acceptance amongst the peer group.

It is obvious they had a drug problem but I dont think it was performance enhancing drugs.

You missed my point - there is a history (or an alleged history) of performance enhancing drugs at West Coast - I'm saying that the acceptance or tolerance of recreational drugs stems from the acceptance of the former.

[Saint Bev]

As I thought, I believe alot of things have been "glossed over". Last night, drug tacking at the Eagles, his underground friends and his recent trips to hospital. I have no doubt Richmond have had to deal with some situations that they wouldn't want made public, but I am not saying he is back into the hard stuff.

Maybe he should work with Les Twentyman, he needs to get over himself. Feel for the family and hope he can keep on top of his demons.

[Moods]

What I find curious about Cousins is this. There seems to be all this good will twds him and his battle etc. People talk about how it's a disease and should be treated by society as such.

So at the end of the season, player X, Let's call him Cam Mooney or Gary Ablett or Jobe Watson, or whoever comes out and says he uses drugs as a way of unwinding. He'll do a line at the end of the year or on special occasions but he has it under control. Thanks for understanding everyone..... Not sure the public sympathy would be all that overwhelming.

I know that drug addiction is a disease, just as alcoholism is as well. A tragic disease. Most of these addictions and I stress MOST of them are borne out of tragedy in the addict's life. A life of physical, sexual or emotional abuse. Usually the addict uses to numb out some underlying pain in their life.

I just find it difficult to have as much sympathy for Cousins as I would for someone who contracted cancer or even heart disease from eating too much. The doco didn't address any 'issues' or anything else he had going on in his life - just an extremely talented, good looking, intelligent young bloke who has been given everything in life, and began using drugs to enhance his partying at a young age. People say we shouldn't treat addicts as criminals. Why not? To become an addict you have to break the law and you do so knowingly. He associated with known criminals, was told to stop and he refused. I can't believe for a second that these factors aren't linked with his addiction. He always believed he knew better than anyone else.

I have nothing but respect for Bryan Cousins and Ben is definitely one of the lucky ones.

Ben looks like he would be terrific company. I can't help but wonder if he wasn't such a great footballer, such a good looking bloke, so articulate would we care so much?

[saintbrat]

I know that drug addiction is a disease, just as alcoholism is as well. A tragic disease. Most of these addictions and I stress MOST of them are borne out of tragedy in the addict's life. A life of physical, sexual or emotional abuse. Usually the addict uses to numb out some underlying pain in their life.

I never watched till the end of ea ch night and then not whole segments

But watching a snippett of the end of the panel discussion and feedback on Nine
and one comment has been used- 'looking forward to seeing Ben get back to what he was'

didn't he state he started using at 17-- which point are we getting back to- -- it would seem that his whole career has been built on false assumption? or facade..
so many times he said ' I thought I......" does not seem that there has ever been much thought on Ben's part for others...

[SaintTom]

The intellectual discussion is being done well enough by others for me to wonder...did anyone else's heart break when they saw Ben in a (2010 for some reason...) Saints jumper? The thought of he and Gards in the midfield again in the right colours over the past two years certainly sparked my imagination. I don't think I wanted to know he was given the number 9! If only...

[saintnick12]

I haven't had a chance to watch the second part yet (will watch it tomorrow night from the Foxtel IQ.

I am watching the Footy show tonight. In their discussion, they mentioned the doco had said he had been so close to playing with the Saints that Ross had presented him with a number 9 jumper.
Anyone that watched the doco tonight hear anything about that??

[saintnick12]

The intellectual discussion is being done well enough by others for me to wonder...did anyone else's heart break when they saw Ben in a (2010 for some reason...) Saints jumper? The thought of he and Gards in the midfield again in the right colours over the past two years certainly sparked my imagination. I don't think I wanted to know he was given the number 9! If only...

Sorry, posted same time as you and missed your post.
Thought that's what I heard, And yes, I did think exactly what you're saying when I heard it.

[SainterK]

I haven't had a chance to watch the second part yet (will watch it tomorrow night from the Foxtel IQ.

I am watching the Footy show tonight. In their discussion, they mentioned the doco had said he had been so close to playing with the Saints that Ross had presented him with a number 9 jumper.
Anyone that watched the doco tonight hear anything about that??

Yep, said that Ross had flown over to Perth and presented him with the number 9 jumper. Had numerous meetings with Ross and Drain, felt that the deal was done, and that he was very excited to become a Saint, literally.

Nixon said the he got the call at the very last hour, and came as a total surprise.

I get the feeling that if it was up to Ross, he would of taken Ben. Interestingly Ben mentioned sponsors as one of multiple reasons he had been given. I could be wrong, but I think Collingwood went cold because of the police information they had receieved, perhaps sponsors was the reason St Kilda pulled out....rather than any real surprise that Ben was still working through his issues?

Ben Cousins being rejected by St Kilda, and picked up as the very last pick in the draft were all important parts in his journey.

[saintDal]

So can we blame Cousin for what happened with Lovett?

Maybe he cursed the number 9 jumper when we didn't pick him up. I think just to be safe we should retire the number for good

[Thinline]

As I thought, I believe alot of things have been "glossed over". Last night, drug tacking at the Eagles, his underground friends and his recent trips to hospital. I have no doubt Richmond have had to deal with some situations that they wouldn't want made public, but I am not saying he is back into the hard stuff.

Maybe he should work with Les Twentyman, he needs to get over himself. Feel for the family and hope he can keep on top of his demons.

Addict walks into the doctor surgery. 'Hey Doc, I'm an addict.' 'Ah, I see. What you've got to do is just get over yourself.' 'So all that stuff about chemical imbalance. That psychological predisposition. Those quiet little traumas. All that stuff that's swimming around in my head. I don't have to worry about that?' 'No son. It's just yourself. Get over it.' 'Thanks Doc. I'm cured.'

Righto.

[markp]

Not a good doco (apart from the voyeuristic appeal), and I think it'll possibly do more harm than good... to me it promoted and glamourised a 'work hard, play harder' mentality and lifestyle more than anything else.... and I still didn't see much regret.

It was all about Ben, not addiction. I note he only cried when he realised he'd stuffed up with his hair test shenanigans and mightn't be allowed to be a star again.

I got the feeling the doco was being made to help engineer a happy ending for Ben, and maybe it's helped his recovery over the last couple of years. Which is fine, but he cant pretend he's done it for the good of humanity, as it's blatantly obvious what a deeply selfish and narcissistic guy he is.

Like I said, I genuinely wish him and his family all the best, but I reckon his arrogant and smug character are always gonna trip him up.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I know that drug addiction is a disease, just as alcoholism is as well. A tragic disease. Most of these addictions and I stress MOST of them are borne out of tragedy in the addict's life. A life of physical, sexual or emotional abuse. Usually the addict uses to numb out some underlying pain in their life.

I would have thought that if there's one myth to be dispelled by Cousins documentary, it's this.

Addiction is a tragedy, it's not caused by tragedy. It's caused by chemistry. There is no group who "own" this disease, any more than there's a group who own Cancer. Your tragic abusee may have started taking smack because it numbed the pain... but the reality is they keep taking because they're addicted.

It could be a down and out teen, it could be a successful broker, it could be a mother of 3 leader on the PTA. The only common element is that for whatever reason, they try the substance to which they become addicted once.

Say what you like about the initial choice, once it's an addiction, it's not a moral issue any more than melanoma is suddenly a moral consequence of tanning.

[st.byron]

Addiction is a tragedy, it's not caused by tragedy. It's caused by chemistry. There is no group who "own" this disease, any more than there's a group who own Cancer. Your tragic abusee may have started taking smack because it numbed the pain... but the reality is they keep taking because they're addicted.

It could be a down and out teen, it could be a successful broker, it could be a mother of 3 leader on the PTA. The only common element is that for whatever reason, they try the substance to which they become addicted once.

Say what you like about the initial choice, once it's an addiction, it's not a moral issue any more than melanoma is suddenly a moral consequence of tanning.

Agree with the argument that there is an element of chemical addiction. For some people the trauma that pushed them to addictive behaviour recurs over and over and over. Then the reasons for the addiction are more complex than just a chemical interaction.
Would also note that addictions can be to specific behavioural habits as well as to substances and that behavioural addictions can be just as damaging as substance addictions.

[samoht]

Here's my pop psychology and 5 cents worth ..

Drugs, alcohol , gambling, eating, posting on this forum (probably many other activities) plus addictive personalities = trouble

The common denominator is an addictive, often self centred and self absorbed personality... where the addict and the habit is the no. 1 priority.

[SainterK]

It seemed completely self indulgent, his logic seemed warped, but I realise he is probably not capable or equipped of making something perceived normal is he?

If this causes parents to talk to their kids about these issues for the first time, or causes parents to educate themselves to recognise the signs, or a kid confides about some issues they have in their life because the stigma has been removed....

[Richter]

What I find curious about Cousins is this. There seems to be all this good will twds him and his battle etc. People talk about how it's a disease and should be treated by society as such.

So at the end of the season, player X, Let's call him Cam Mooney or Gary Ablett or Jobe Watson, or whoever comes out and says he uses drugs as a way of unwinding. He'll do a line at the end of the year or on special occasions but he has it under control. Thanks for understanding everyone..... Not sure the public sympathy would be all that overwhelming.

I know that drug addiction is a disease, just as alcoholism is as well. A tragic disease. Most of these addictions and I stress MOST of them are borne out of tragedy in the addict's life. A life of physical, sexual or emotional abuse. Usually the addict uses to numb out some underlying pain in their life.

I just find it difficult to have as much sympathy for Cousins as I would for someone who contracted cancer or even heart disease from eating too much. The doco didn't address any 'issues' or anything else he had going on in his life - just an extremely talented, good looking, intelligent young bloke who has been given everything in life, and began using drugs to enhance his partying at a young age. People say we shouldn't treat addicts as criminals. Why not? To become an addict you have to break the law and you do so knowingly. He associated with known criminals, was told to stop and he refused. I can't believe for a second that these factors aren't linked with his addiction. He always believed he knew better than anyone else.

I have nothing but respect for Bryan Cousins and Ben is definitely one of the lucky ones.

Ben looks like he would be terrific company. I can't help but wonder if he wasn't such a great footballer, such a good looking bloke, so articulate would we care so much?

Excellent post Moods.

I think what a lot of people are missing is that whilst addiction is a disorder, the very concept of a disorder is a fairly nebulous one. Virtually any disorder can be looked at from a number of perspectives...

- biological - the most classically conceived "disease" concept

- psychological - which includes concepts such as inherent temperament, intelligence etc.

- behavioural - which largely looks at why a person is motivated to perform certain actions and the effect of developmental learning aspects in how a person makes life choices for themselves.

- Narrative - how a person or others looks at their own life-story as a way of making sense of their inner world and the outer environment.


What is very clear is that whilst most "diseases" such as cancer, heart disease etc. are usually thought of primarily from the biological perspective because of the way that the illness eventually affects the body, nevertheless in terms of underlying causes, the effects on the person's experience of their life, and the experience of the people who surround them, such a lens is too narrow. Addictions are best thought of from the perspective that they do not have a single cause or effect, rather a multitude of them. Similarly they are best managed in heterogeneous ways, which can vary from individual to individual.

[stinger]

a complex issue....

[bigred]

Drug addiction. In cases such as Cousins....

Poor choices. Just really bad decisions.

He will never be free of it for the rest of his days. And it is a shame.

I dont feel sympathy for him, nor do I want to pity him. These were his decisions to make and he has to live with the consequences.

Drug addiction is nasty. Chemical addictions like with ice, coke or smack...far out you have it all ahead of you staying clean.
I've had some close mates have issues before...I wouldnt wish it on anyone.

[Sobraz]

Without getting into the debate about drug addiction as a disorder through choice or chemistry, what is it about guys like Cousins that they cannot see that the guys they hang around with are sh1t people??...

I understand the drug dependency bit, but why cant an intelligent guy, from a good family, see that blokes like John Kizzon or whatever his name is, are going to bring nothing but problems to his life...

When he is desperate and using them as a means for his issues, fine, but to make a choice to spend time with such people, particularly when sober and in the public eye, and establish them as 'friends' indicates to me that Ben is also a very poor judge of character, and has no idea what life and human relationships are really about... His feet are nowhere near the ground...