Concerns about our performance

[Teflon]

Lets put some context around that.

Wed won 19 straight last year.
We'd ALL YEAR produced 4 qtr pressure games of football to monster sides (so much so Collingwood have ripped us off mercilessly and now sit no 1 in the comp for fwd 50 tackles - eclipsing St Kilda at the same time last year).

Again, I have not seen that same level of intensity for 4 qtrs this year and the coach himself has said hes looking for 4 qtrs....and only liking halves at the minute......

Some believe we have this magic in a bag....and we'll just unleash. I hope theyre are right. That won't change the fact that we have been scored against more easily in 2010 and sides are now getting through our zone and out of our fwd 50 with far more ease than 09.

Lets put some context around that

In 2009 teams averaged 17.3 scoring shots against us per game

In 2010 teams have averaged 19.8 scoring shots against us - still the lowest in the league

Hardly a huge devastating increase given last year was a recording breaking defence year

Just behind us are Collingwood (20.2) then Bulldogs (21.7) then Geelong (22.8)

So you are saying we have played with the same intensity and ferocity at the man with the ball to 2009?

If so you're the only Saints person I know that thinks so and that includes the coach......interesting......stats arent they?

I agree with you the intensity has dropped - the statistics I stated confirm this in that there has been an increase this year in scoring opportunities against us

That said this increase has been minimal (still under 20) and we still are the best defensive side in the league - intensity drop or no intensity drop - the stats do not lie - this is fact

The fact that we have not played with the same intensity and ferocity as last year yet we still sit number 1 as the best defensive side in the league says that we still must be doing something right to limit opposition teams from scoring

I believe we can turn it on when needed - I can't see how we can lose the ability to implement this gameplan in such a short space of time using the same players - sure teams might be finding it slightly easier to get through our zone but ultimately they are still going to find it hard to score

Thats all true if all your seeking to do is stop sides scoring.

IF your intesnity is also key to your attacking ability on the turn over.....I suspect ours is........then you're going to suffer considerably if this drops off.

Interesting to note how many top sides aka Collingwoods goals now come from turn overs and the increase in this area and our decrease.

Even on the weekend against Tigers - they got the ascendancy through their good pressure on us early (and some ordinary foot skills by us,...) to see huge numbers of turn over goals and easy goals to Jack riewoldt. We reversed that trend in the second qtr when we upped the ante a tad (still not to 09 level for me) and comfortably accounted for them in that period.

The FACTS are I can recall sitting there watching this side last year in absolute awe at their ability to go at the man with the ball, almost create "perceived" pressure and create a turn over. To watch Geelong caught time and again in Rd 14 2009 whilst trying to get the ball out of our fwd 50.

I have not seen that level in 2010 and for me to win it we need it.

[saint3d]

Did you go to Collingwood Rd 16? cause to me they are the best performed team this year thus far.....how was the intensity that day in the most RECENT encounter?

Yeah I was there. All day we looked off the pace. But we had 22 scores to 25 and kept them to a pretty low I50 count. Collingwood's conversion rate was eye-raisingly good on the day, too.

Anyway it's largely irrelevant now, unless you're suggesting intensity then = intensity next time, do not pass go do not collect $200. If that's the case then I agree, the Saints will get smashed if they play with that intensity in the finals.

you're kidding yourself if you think the side has hit anywhere near 09's intensity

I'm not interested in matching last year's intensity. I'm interested in the team giving itself the best chance of making and winning the Grand Final. I know from last year that week-in week-out intensity doesn't guarantee it, so why should I worry about some match in July and whether the intensity was high enough?

We need to lift to roll them for mine.

If you mean from round 16 then of course I agree. But you might as well just say 'we need to play well to win'.

If you really think you haven't seen the Saints play well enough this year, perhaps you should look at it differently:

The Saints earned a top 4 spot and as good a shot at the premiership as any other team, finishing only a game and a half off top spot, with two of their best players missing half the season, and (apparently) without having put in a single four quarter performance all year.

Heaven help the other teams in the finals.

[saint3d]

The FACTS are I can recall sitting there watching this side last year in absolute awe at their ability to go at the man with the ball, almost create "perceived" pressure and create a turn over. To watch Geelong caught time and again in Rd 14 2009 whilst trying to get the ball out of our fwd 50.

I have not seen that level in 2010 and for me to win it we need it.

You would have loved round 13 2010. Shame you missed it.

[terry smith rules]

I have not seen that level in 2010 and for me to win it we need it.

You would have loved round 13 2010. Shame you missed it.

Exactly

The intensity that we played with in 2009 was exhasuting mentally and physically. Why would we want our team doing that every week.

We want that against the good sides, which we have seen (except round 16).

Saturday was a win was a win, we tried a few things.. Miles, Milne (more up the ground), etc and noone got badly hurt... ticks

Do we see usain bolt running flat out in the heats, no because he doesn't have to.

It is all about the preparation for the finals and how we come out saturday week.

[rodgerfox]

Let's be honest.....

There are two major differences this year compared to last year.

1) We knew last year that if we truned up to play we would beat anyone.
2) We knew last year that it was very unlikely that we wouldn't turn up to play.


This year, we hope/think that if we turn up to play we will beat anyone. And this year we aren't sure whether we'll turn up to play on a given week.


Now, this doesn't mean we can't win it this year. But clearly we aren't in as good a position as we were last year.

[bozza1980]

Let's be honest.....

There are two major differences this year compared to last year.

1) We knew last year that if we truned up to play we would beat anyone.
2) We knew last year that it was very unlikely that we wouldn't turn up to play.


This year, we hope/think that if we turn up to play we will beat anyone. And this year we aren't sure whether we'll turn up to play on a given week.


Now, this doesn't mean we can't win it this year. But clearly we aren't in as good a position as we were last year.

You are right last year we entered the finals 20 & 2, needing to win 3 games to win the flag.

This year we will enter the finals either 16-5-1, needing to win 3 games to win the flag.

[markp]

Last year is done and lost, this year is still in play and ours for the taking.

I reckon we're sitting just where we need to be as we hit the final lap.

To me the most significant and telling thing I've seen thus far was our second half against the cats... we held that team to 3 points in a half of footy, with Roo in the stands.

We've had our sights set on them and redemption at the G in September since the final siren last year... it's going to be freaking epic.

[InkerSaint]

The FACTS are I can recall sitting there watching this side last year in absolute awe at their ability to go at the man with the ball, almost create "perceived" pressure and create a turn over. To watch Geelong caught time and again in Rd 14 2009 whilst trying to get the ball out of our fwd 50.

I have not seen that level in 2010 and for me to win it we need it.

You would have loved round 13 2010. Shame you missed it.

And... what if that intensity cost us the flag because the team could not sustain it? Wouldn't you want to leave some juice in the tank the next time around?

[gringo]

We should play our finals game now showing everyone our cards. Don't worry about injuries just go shock and awe on them all. Seriously we just need to walk into the finals fresh and ready with no significant injuries. Getting some practice at all out attack for the chance of hitting the Hawks or Carlton isn't a bad option either.

[saint3d]

This year, we hope/think that if we turn up to play we will beat anyone.

I agree with the rest of your post, but I think the uncertainty is almost entirely along the lines of 'will we turn up to play'.

[supersaints]

I think you are right about him going but think it has absolutely nothing to do with him and Bomber.

that's not what i heard.

My understanding is the two of them hardly even communicate anymore and struggle to look each other in the eye.

I know I'll get howled at but if true it's a credit to the Cats they can still sustain such excellence on field despite the apparent distraction...

OK, I won't howl you down but don't you think the saints deserve more credit for the most distractive year on record? We have suffered a lot more distraction... Lovett, Milney rapist slur, bakes set up by the tribunal, rooeys injury ,grams injury..etc People talk like we finished on the bottom of the ladder or something, rather tahn about a game behind the filth and pussies!

[SainterK]

I disagree, that we were in a better position last year, unless you think winning the minor premiership was in St Kilda's sights again?

I don't subscribe to the theory that the boys sit third as a result of 'not being sure' if they can win anymore. They sit third for no other reason than losing one of the best players in the competition and learning to adjust to his absence and return.

The club didn't have the luxury of guaranteed top four, but still made calculated risks to ensure it was ready for the finals series. They have progressively rested players. Realised it was important that Roo and Gram came back into the side, even if underdone. Heaps of guys have been given a game at senior level should the need for them arise in September.

I guess people can find other reasons that our best game this year just happened to be against Geelong, for mine it just shows the fire burns.

Don't underestimate the fact the boys know just how incredibly hard it is to even make a GF and have crossed this hurdle, an advantage it has over some other contenders.

There is also the stuff Roo told them to bottle, that stuff seemed to help Geelong last year.

Saints 2010....older, and wiser.

[SainterK]

Saturday was a win was a win, we tried a few things.. Miles, Milne (more up the ground), etc and noone got badly hurt... ticks

Funny you mention Milne up the ground, does anyone else think this may be in preperation for first week of the finals against Geelong?

Hunt is such a good matchup for him, actually he is probably the comps best small defender.

Maybe this may help him shake the heavy attention if neccessary?

[plugger66]

Let's be honest.....

There are two major differences this year compared to last year.

1) We knew last year that if we truned up to play we would beat anyone.
2) We knew last year that it was very unlikely that we wouldn't turn up to play.


This year, we hope/think that if we turn up to play we will beat anyone. And this year we aren't sure whether we'll turn up to play on a given week.


Now, this doesn't mean we can't win it this year. But clearly we aren't in as good a position as we were last year.

Is that based on beating geelong by 6 points in a home and away round?

[mohannair]

You all will be surprised by the effort we put from the first week of the finals.

They are just getting the job done (winning) & will switch the mode once the real battle begins.

Over the last years journey they know that no matter how many games you win in a row, no matter how big the winning margin is, no matter whether you lead at all the 3 change over in the Grand Final, what it all matters is who leads at the Siren on the Final day.

Look at Geelong, they planned the run so beautifully last year, we all had written them off when they fell apart towards the end, but once they played the Doggies & the Filthwood when it mattered they lifted & that when we became the second favourites.

So I think based on the learning from last year we will plan our run & with few Good players to return, Kosi showing some promise & Roo getting back to his best I think we will give it a Good shot.

[Thinline]

Let's be honest.....

There are two major differences this year compared to last year.

1) We knew last year that if we truned up to play we would beat anyone.
2) We knew last year that it was very unlikely that we wouldn't turn up to play.


This year, we hope/think that if we turn up to play we will beat anyone. And this year we aren't sure whether we'll turn up to play on a given week.


Now, this doesn't mean we can't win it this year. But clearly we aren't in as good a position as we were last year.

What utter tosh.

We have proven we can beat the best sides.

How many sides have kept the Cats to 3 pts in a half?

If that wasn't the flex of a footy bicep, I don't know what was.

And before you bemoan the effort against the Pies in Rd 16, remind me first how many sides have played even remotely competently with that 'flu' everyone talks about?

Nothing has changed except for the fact that we are under the radar this time.

[ChicagoSaint]

Hunt is such a good matchup for him, actually he is probably the comps best small defender.

I'm not the world's biggest Bakes fan but I'd suggest Bakes is a better small defender. More mobile, an equal kick, smarter, harder.

[Teflon]

The FACTS are I can recall sitting there watching this side last year in absolute awe at their ability to go at the man with the ball, almost create "perceived" pressure and create a turn over. To watch Geelong caught time and again in Rd 14 2009 whilst trying to get the ball out of our fwd 50.

I have not seen that level in 2010 and for me to win it we need it.

You would have loved round 13 2010. Shame you missed it.

Where did I say I missed it?

odd comment.

So you saw a 4 qtr effort akin to the 4 qtr effort anxd intensity we delivered in 09 at the Rd 13 game......did you feel that way at half time?.....

Its also odd you feel we dont need 4 qtr efforts at the level delivered last year a week out from finals.....yet its all Ross Lyon keeps referring to....the fact we are tracking at about 80% and need to build......

But what would he know right?....I mean we have you....

[Teflon]

This year, we hope/think that if we turn up to play we will beat anyone.

I agree with the rest of your post, but I think the uncertainty is almost entirely along the lines of 'will we turn up to play'.

Doesnt the fact there are concerns on whether or not we'll turn up to play speak directly to the level of consisitency in our intensity?

Didnt 09 deliver that consistency in intensity regulalry to at least give us a chance to win a flag? (whether we manage to kick straight or not)...isnt that what you're banging on about??? the chance to win a flag???

If so, how can you not aspire to the level of intensity that we got week in week out from 09?

Strange.

[Teflon]

Last year is done and lost, this year is still in play and ours for the taking.

I reckon we're sitting just where we need to be as we hit the final lap.

To me the most significant and telling thing I've seen thus far was our second half against the cats... we held that team to 3 points in a half of footy, with Roo in the stands.

We've had our sights set on them and redemption at the G in September since the final siren last year... it's going to be freaking epic.

Lets not discount the Cats side on the park that night in amongst our euphoria......sure we missed Roo/Gram....but they too had some key injured players out......did Chapman play? (honestly cant remember).

[Teflon]

I have not seen that level in 2010 and for me to win it we need it.

You would have loved round 13 2010. Shame you missed it.

Exactly

The intensity that we played with in 2009 was exhasuting mentally and physically. Why would we want our team doing that every week.

We want that against the good sides, which we have seen (except round 16).

Saturday was a win was a win, we tried a few things.. Miles, Milne (more up the ground), etc and noone got badly hurt... ticks

Do we see usain bolt running flat out in the heats, no because he doesn't have to.

It is all about the preparation for the finals and how we come out saturday week.

Sure, we've got the switch in the cupboard waiting to flick....cause thats how footy teams work.

If so, why was the coach less than enthused with half the game?.....

You dont flirt with form - turn it on/off.

[SainterK]

Last year is done and lost, this year is still in play and ours for the taking.

I reckon we're sitting just where we need to be as we hit the final lap.

To me the most significant and telling thing I've seen thus far was our second half against the cats... we held that team to 3 points in a half of footy, with Roo in the stands.

We've had our sights set on them and redemption at the G in September since the final siren last year... it's going to be freaking epic.

Lets not discount the Cats side on the park that night in amongst our euphoria......sure we missed Roo/Gram....but they too had some key injured players out......did Chapman play? (honestly cant remember).

From memory, they missed Chapman and Corey...given the wet conditions I agree that Chapman was a significant out.

[Mr Magic]

I have not seen that level in 2010 and for me to win it we need it.

You would have loved round 13 2010. Shame you missed it.

Exactly

The intensity that we played with in 2009 was exhasuting mentally and physically. Why would we want our team doing that every week.

We want that against the good sides, which we have seen (except round 16).

Saturday was a win was a win, we tried a few things.. Miles, Milne (more up the ground), etc and noone got badly hurt... ticks

Do we see usain bolt running flat out in the heats, no because he doesn't have to.

It is all about the preparation for the finals and how we come out saturday week.

Sure, we've got the switch in the cupboard waiting to flick....cause thats how footy teams work.

If so, why was the coach less than enthused with half the game?.....

You dont flirt with form - turn it on/off.

Then how would you explain the performance in R22 last year against the performance 1 week later in teh Qualifying Final?

I'm not sure why you're arguing the point?
Compared to last year, that we're not playing with the same intesity is a given.
But is that a deliberate ploy or a reflection of us 'slipping backwards'?

Interestingly, other than the R16 Collingwood game where there were seemingly extenuating circumstances, we've performde better against the good teams than against the weaker ones.
To me that's a sign of us 'relaxing' against those teams we feel we have the measure of, adn setting ourselves against those teams we feel we have a point to prove.

You mention half time of the R13 Geelong game.
I honestly didn't feel we were out of that game.
We're not the same team as prior to 2009 when all other teams had to do was get 4 goals up on us and we were finished.
There exudes a 'confidence' amongst our team that they are never beaten (and yes they do get beaten).

I for one will not be surprised to see us come out against Geelong and produce a 'pressure cauldron' against them, belying the insipid form we've been showing.

[markp]

Last year is done and lost, this year is still in play and ours for the taking.

I reckon we're sitting just where we need to be as we hit the final lap.

To me the most significant and telling thing I've seen thus far was our second half against the cats... we held that team to 3 points in a half of footy, with Roo in the stands.

We've had our sights set on them and redemption at the G in September since the final siren last year... it's going to be freaking epic.

Lets not discount the Cats side on the park that night in amongst our euphoria......sure we missed Roo/Gram....but they too had some key injured players out......did Chapman play? (honestly cant remember).

From memory, they missed Chapman and Corey...given the wet conditions I agree that Chapman was a significant out.

Yep, but I think Gram being out covers the absence of Chapman... to cover Roo's you'd have to take the likes of Ablett out too.

Held them to 3 points in a half!... who else could/has even come close to that?

It would be interesting to see our tackle count for that half compared to other games this year, and our average for last year.

As MM points out above, if you cant just 'flick a switch' then what do most teams do when finals start every year?

I truly believe we're about to unleash of hell.

[SainterK]

Last year is done and lost, this year is still in play and ours for the taking.

I reckon we're sitting just where we need to be as we hit the final lap.

To me the most significant and telling thing I've seen thus far was our second half against the cats... we held that team to 3 points in a half of footy, with Roo in the stands.

We've had our sights set on them and redemption at the G in September since the final siren last year... it's going to be freaking epic.

Lets not discount the Cats side on the park that night in amongst our euphoria......sure we missed Roo/Gram....but they too had some key injured players out......did Chapman play? (honestly cant remember).

From memory, they missed Chapman and Corey...given the wet conditions I agree that Chapman was a significant out.

Yep, but I think Gram being out covers the absence of Chapman... to cover Roo's you'd have to take the likes of Ablett out too.

Held them to 3 points in a half!... who else could/has even come close to that?

It would be interesting to see our tackle count for that half compared to other games this year, and our average for last year.

As MM points out above, if you cant just 'flick a switch' then what do most teams do when finals start every year?

I truly believe we're about to unleash of hell.

Oh, just because I agreed Chapman's absence from the game was significant....

Please don't confuse me with someone who doesn't subscribe to the 'we are SO going to flick the switch' theory markp, I consider myself a pioneer on the matter and even started a thread on it a couple of weeks back...