Concerns about our performance

[saint3d]

Still yet to see 4 qtrs of this stuff in 2010 toem thats the single biggest difference to 09

I hope to look back on 2010 and say the single biggest difference to 2009 was that we bloody won it!

I'm not looking for a carbon copy of last year. It didn't turn out too well. I have no idea what this year is supposed to look like, except for the very end. Nothing that happens before then will convince me of anything, one way or another.

I don't think it's entirely by accident that our two best performances for the year came against the two best performed teams of the year. I've seen enough this year to know the Saints can win it. But the only way to prove they will win it is when they do win it.

[Mr Magic]

I dont think Ive seen a 4 qtr pressure game from us tfhis year - including the early smashing of nth when they were hopless.

You don't need immense pressure to smash a poor team by a hundred points. You just need to get the ball more.

Holding a team goalless for a half requires relentless pressure.

Unfortunately St Kilda has managed to apply relentless pressure only against THE TEAMS MOST LIKELY TO BE ENCOUNTERED IN THE FINALS.

The point lost here is you dont pick and choose - as Malthouse said today of Collingwood...."you dont just turn it on coming down the race"....it takes time to develop that....we have 1 game left before finals to do so....is that enough? (gonna have to be).

Do you think Collingwood over the past 11 weeks have gone hard against top 4 sides and slackened off against lower clubs?....did we in 09?

Sure we applied pressure for half a game against Tigers and reversed the trun over count as a result - Im assuming that was the half Lyon said he liked.......and the other half?

Still yet to see 4 qtrs of this stuff in 2010 toem thats the single biggest difference to 09 - BUT there are mitigating circumstances......we havent had the settked team/dream run with injuries of 09.....but stuill...to watch the first gamer Miles come in and throw himself into every contest tells me its more about attitude than anything else.

Have you forgotten the last 3 rounds of 2009 Home and Away season.
We were deplorable against Essendon, NM and Melbourne. We actaully only got on top of the wooden spooners when they took their best players out of the game.

It didn't seem to stop us 'flicking the switch' in the first week of the finals as despatching the Filth.

Lets put some context around that.

Wed won 19 straight last year.
We'd ALL YEAR produced 4 qtr pressure games of football to monster sides (so much so Collingwood have ripped us off mercilessly and now sit no 1 in the comp for fwd 50 tackles - eclipsing St Kilda at the same time last year).

Again, I have not seen that same level of intensity for 4 qtrs this year and the coach himself has said hes looking for 4 qtrs....and only liking halves at the minute......

Some believe we have this magic in a bag....and we'll just unleash. I hope theyre are right. That won't change the fact that we have been scored against more easily in 2010 and sides are now getting through our zone and out of our fwd 50 with far more ease than 09.

Teffers,
How was our injury run last year compared to this season?
I would humbly suggest that the loss of Reiwoldt and Gram are a major part of the reason we've not played as well this year.
When Roo is up and firing, opposition teams cannot play us the way they would like to.
When we play Collingwood next, how will they approach us, knowing that Reiwoldt is back, and firing. Will they leave him with just one opponent?

[Teflon]

Lets put some context around that.

Wed won 19 straight last year.
We'd ALL YEAR produced 4 qtr pressure games of football to monster sides (so much so Collingwood have ripped us off mercilessly and now sit no 1 in the comp for fwd 50 tackles - eclipsing St Kilda at the same time last year).

Again, I have not seen that same level of intensity for 4 qtrs this year and the coach himself has said hes looking for 4 qtrs....and only liking halves at the minute......

Some believe we have this magic in a bag....and we'll just unleash. I hope theyre are right. That won't change the fact that we have been scored against more easily in 2010 and sides are now getting through our zone and out of our fwd 50 with far more ease than 09.

Lets put some context around that

In 2009 teams averaged 17.3 scoring shots against us per game

In 2010 teams have averaged 19.8 scoring shots against us - still the lowest in the league

Hardly a huge devastating increase given last year was a recording breaking defence year

Just behind us are Collingwood (20.2) then Bulldogs (21.7) then Geelong (22.8)

So you are saying we have played with the same intensity and ferocity at the man with the ball to 2009?

If so you're the only Saints person I know that thinks so and that includes the coach......interesting......stats arent they?

[Teflon]

Still yet to see 4 qtrs of this stuff in 2010 toem thats the single biggest difference to 09

I hope to look back on 2010 and say the single biggest difference to 2009 was that we bloody won it!

I'm not looking for a carbon copy of last year. It didn't turn out too well. I have no idea what this year is supposed to look like, except for the very end. Nothing that happens before then will convince me of anything, one way or another.

I don't think it's entirely by accident that our two best performances for the year came against the two best performed teams of the year. I've seen enough this year to know the Saints can win it. But the only way to prove they will win it is when they do win it.

Did you go to Collingwood Rd 16? cause to me they are the best performed team this year thus far.....how was the intensity that day in the most RECENT encounter?

Look Im all for "lets win yada yada yada" but you're kidding yourself if you think the side has hit anywhere near 09's intensity - Lyon himself has said it. To me IF we are going to win it - we'd better be close to that level or we'll get blwon away by the cats/Pies in 10mins of footy.

Its also no coincidence to note Collingwood now ranks second for defence in the comp for pts against - just 50 or so off us - BUT importantly their scoring "pts for" is well above us....they are doing BOTH aspects well.

We need to lift to roll them for mine.

[SainterK]

Still yet to see 4 qtrs of this stuff in 2010 toem thats the single biggest difference to 09

I hope to look back on 2010 and say the single biggest difference to 2009 was that we bloody won it!

I'm not looking for a carbon copy of last year. It didn't turn out too well. I have no idea what this year is supposed to look like, except for the very end. Nothing that happens before then will convince me of anything, one way or another.

I don't think it's entirely by accident that our two best performances for the year came against the two best performed teams of the year. I've seen enough this year to know the Saints can win it. But the only way to prove they will win it is when they do win it.

Did you go to Collingwood Rd 16? cause to me they are the best performed team this year thus far.....how was the intensity that day?

Few things about that day that enables me to remain optimistic Teflon.

At least 8 players (and the coach) had the flu, it just wasn't put out there beforehand like the Dogs, as a means to excuse a potential loss.

We still managed to limit Collingwood's inside 50's to at least 20 below their season average, they just had an amazingly accurate day in front of goal, and they have proven since just how unique that was.

Flipside, our boys could not been more inaccurate.

Collingwood have remained consistent since this game, we have improved. In particular, the attacking side of our game in the last couple of weeks (151, 115, 115)

Ps - It was also the first day Gilbert experienced a heavy tag from memory, he has since learned to cope.

[Teflon]

Magic - I hear you on the injuries front and dont disagree. I'm also wrapt we sit 3rd with Roo being out for 13 weeks but lets be clear - we built a brand of football devoted to "team pressure" not the individual - what Im talking about is effort and consistency of effort. I can handle if we simply lose cause we get outplayed - but when that effort fallls away (and Im yet to meet a person that suggests our overall team pressure is where it was in 09) then we get exposed badly.

Im talking about running, hnting in packs stuff. The inability last year for sides to get the ball out of our fwd 50 - our tackle count inside fwd 50 made it so much harder for sides to rebound and expose our defence.......THAT is almost intangible and not whats been there this year for mine.

If we are going to win the thing it will be our ability to out pressure the opposition that gets us there.

Its no coincidence that most goals in modern footy come from turn overs - that equates to pressuring the opposiiton...not for a half (aka Tigers) but for 4 qtrs. Look at the stats turn round when we played that footy against Tiges???? we monstered them.

We cant afford a half against Pies/Cats at the business end.

[samoht]

I'm not worried about the week to week stuff - I prefer if we don't try too hard next week and save ourselves for the finals.

I know if we can stop/restrict Chablett - we will beat Geelong.

It's all about stopping Chablett.

[plugger66]

I'm not worried about the week to week stuff - I prefer if we don't try too hard next week and save ourselves for the finals.

I know if we can stop/restrict Chablett - we will beat Geelong.

It's all about stopping Chablett.

Never heard of Chapman or Selwood?

[samoht]

Chablett = shorthand for Chapman + Ablett.

They are the 2 to stop ... that's the way I see it anyway.

[Thinline]

Chablett = shorthand for Chapman + Ablett.

They are the 2 to stop ... that's the way I see it anyway.

Barchabwoodtelcoe v Riehaymontdalosi.

[Mr Magic]

Magic - I hear you on the injuries front and dont disagree. I'm also wrapt we sit 3rd with Roo being out for 13 weeks but lets be clear - we built a brand of football devoted to "team pressure" not the individual - what Im talking about is effort and consistency of effort. I can handle if we simply lose cause we get outplayed - but when that effort fallls away (and Im yet to meet a person that suggests our overall team pressure is where it was in 09) then we get exposed badly.

Im talking about running, hnting in packs stuff. The inability last year for sides to get the ball out of our fwd 50 - our tackle count inside fwd 50 made it so much harder for sides to rebound and expose our defence.......THAT is almost intangible and not whats been there this year for mine.

If we are going to win the thing it will be our ability to out pressure the opposition that gets us there.

Its no coincidence that most goals in modern footy come from turn overs - that equates to pressuring the opposiiton...not for a half (aka Tigers) but for 4 qtrs. Look at the stats turn round when we played that footy against Tiges???? we monstered them.

We cant afford a half against Pies/Cats at the business end.

Rightly or wrongly I believe that Nick Reiwoldt cause such concerns for opposition teams that the pressure is eased on our other players.
That in turn anables them to do things they cannot when he's not up and firing.
I didn't see the R16 CVollingwood game but I beliewve that Roo was not a shoadow of how he's been in the last 3 weeks?

I have absolutely no doubt that the coaches at Collingwood and Geelong did not want to see the vision of him from the last 3 weeks.
I feel they would have been hoping that he could not get back to the form he was showing prior to injury.

He causes them to change their game thinking.
IMO,
He's that important to us.

No other Final 4 team has a player in such a similar position.

[bigcarl]

It's all about stopping Chablett.

It will be interesting to see if the Ablett to Gold Coast thing becomes a factor.

The mail is that he is definitely going (with his deteriorating relationship with Bomber being the key factor) and this must be causing some grief down at Kardinia Park.

It would be a bit like Rooey shooting through on us ... though granted Ablett has won two premierships with the Cats and may not have a lot else to prove.

But he is a favourite son ... the name guarantees that. Their fans love him and his teammates might start seeing him as something of a sook and mercenary when he leaves.

[plugger66]

It's all about stopping Chablett.

It will be interesting to see if the Ablett to Gold Coast thing becomes a factor.

The mail is that he is definitely going (with his deteriorating relationship with Bomber being the key factor) and this must be causing some grief down at Kardinia Park.

It would be a bit like Rooey shooting through on us ... though granted Ablett has won two premierships with the Cats and may not have a lot else to prove.

But he is a favourite son ... the name guarantees that. Their fans love him and his teammates might start seeing him as something of a sook and mercenary when he leaves.

By then they may have won 3 flags so if he goes so be it. My guess is that the players will understand that leaving for maybe one million more than you are now makes sense so i dont think any of them will give a stuff.
I think you are right about him going but think it has absolutely nothing to do with him and Bomber.

[bigcarl]

I think you are right about him going but think it has absolutely nothing to do with him and Bomber.

that's not what i heard.

[plugger66]

I think you are right about him going but think it has absolutely nothing to do with him and Bomber.

that's not what i heard.

Well it is what i heard and I heard it from someone who would know.

[Thinline]

I think you are right about him going but think it has absolutely nothing to do with him and Bomber.

that's not what i heard.

My understanding is the two of them hardly even communicate anymore and struggle to look each other in the eye.

I know I'll get howled at but if true it's a credit to the Cats they can still sustain such excellence on field despite the apparent distraction...

[plugger66]

I think you are right about him going but think it has absolutely nothing to do with him and Bomber.

that's not what i heard.

My understanding is the two of them hardly even communicate anymore and struggle to look each other in the eye.

I know I'll get howled at but if true it's a credit to the Cats they can still sustain such excellence on field despite the apparent distraction...

I have heard that nothing has changed since day one of them working together and he will be leaving, if he does for 3 reasons only. Chance to lead a new side but more importantly the money will set him up for life. Also his brother and dad live there.

[bigcarl]

I think you are right about him going but think it has absolutely nothing to do with him and Bomber.

that's not what i heard.

My understanding is the two of them hardly even communicate anymore and struggle to look each other in the eye.

Yep, that's what I heard. They don't get on. It would be enough to break the heart of a Cats fan seeing Ablett walk out ... the beginning of the end of their dominance.

[SainterK]

My understanding is the two of them hardly even communicate anymore and struggle to look each other in the eye.

Well, nothing we haven't seen before. It certainly helps to justify his decision to leave, if the relationship has become 'untenable'

[Thinline]

My understanding is the two of them hardly even communicate anymore and struggle to look each other in the eye.

Well, nothing we haven't seen before. It certainly helps to justify his decision to leave, if the relationship has become 'untenable'

My guesstimate is that no Ablett's really all that good with authority figures of any kind and the fact that Gary's chasing a pot of gold under the nose of a one-club-player and a one-club-senior coach makes them both feel particularly weird (read: TENSION).

Personally, I'm grateful their MAY be tension in the air, but frankly it doesn't really seem to be destabilising the Cats all that badly (ie not at all).

[Teflon]

Magic - I hear you on the injuries front and dont disagree. I'm also wrapt we sit 3rd with Roo being out for 13 weeks but lets be clear - we built a brand of football devoted to "team pressure" not the individual - what Im talking about is effort and consistency of effort. I can handle if we simply lose cause we get outplayed - but when that effort fallls away (and Im yet to meet a person that suggests our overall team pressure is where it was in 09) then we get exposed badly.

Im talking about running, hnting in packs stuff. The inability last year for sides to get the ball out of our fwd 50 - our tackle count inside fwd 50 made it so much harder for sides to rebound and expose our defence.......THAT is almost intangible and not whats been there this year for mine.

If we are going to win the thing it will be our ability to out pressure the opposition that gets us there.

Its no coincidence that most goals in modern footy come from turn overs - that equates to pressuring the opposiiton...not for a half (aka Tigers) but for 4 qtrs. Look at the stats turn round when we played that footy against Tiges???? we monstered them.

We cant afford a half against Pies/Cats at the business end.

Rightly or wrongly I believe that Nick Reiwoldt cause such concerns for opposition teams that the pressure is eased on our other players.
That in turn anables them to do things they cannot when he's not up and firing.
I didn't see the R16 CVollingwood game but I beliewve that Roo was not a shoadow of how he's been in the last 3 weeks?

I have absolutely no doubt that the coaches at Collingwood and Geelong did not want to see the vision of him from the last 3 weeks.
I feel they would have been hoping that he could not get back to the form he was showing prior to injury.

He causes them to change their game thinking.
IMO,
He's that important to us.

No other Final 4 team has a player in such a similar position.

Forget about what Nick was doing Rd 16 - grab a tape and watch what Collingwood did to our defensive run. Tagged Gilbert/Fisher - made them accountable and our run dried up. Worst game Ive seen these 2 play.

Even IF Riewoldt was on fire - we lost that much midfield ball (due to their superior pressure) it wasnt gonna matter.

A 7 goal to 1 first qtr - Riewoldts not gonna cause them that much pain when they are that well on top due to a team game built heavily on pressure in their fwd 50 (their turn overs were crucial to them goalling).

Still, hope you're right and Riewoldt somehow flicks the team mentallity switch to get us tackling/harrassing like 09...cause we wont win it unless we do imo.

[Thinline]

What are the chances Miles (should he have another good showing against Crows) becomes key in any clash against the Pies?

They can't tag three running backmen.

We'll learn from Rd 16. We'll be a different side.

Sweat not.

[Devilhead]

Lets put some context around that.

Wed won 19 straight last year.
We'd ALL YEAR produced 4 qtr pressure games of football to monster sides (so much so Collingwood have ripped us off mercilessly and now sit no 1 in the comp for fwd 50 tackles - eclipsing St Kilda at the same time last year).

Again, I have not seen that same level of intensity for 4 qtrs this year and the coach himself has said hes looking for 4 qtrs....and only liking halves at the minute......

Some believe we have this magic in a bag....and we'll just unleash. I hope theyre are right. That won't change the fact that we have been scored against more easily in 2010 and sides are now getting through our zone and out of our fwd 50 with far more ease than 09.

Lets put some context around that

In 2009 teams averaged 17.3 scoring shots against us per game

In 2010 teams have averaged 19.8 scoring shots against us - still the lowest in the league

Hardly a huge devastating increase given last year was a recording breaking defence year

Just behind us are Collingwood (20.2) then Bulldogs (21.7) then Geelong (22.8)

So you are saying we have played with the same intensity and ferocity at the man with the ball to 2009?

If so you're the only Saints person I know that thinks so and that includes the coach......interesting......stats arent they?

I agree with you the intensity has dropped - the statistics I stated confirm this in that there has been an increase this year in scoring opportunities against us

That said this increase has been minimal (still under 20) and we still are the best defensive side in the league - intensity drop or no intensity drop - the stats do not lie - this is fact

The fact that we have not played with the same intensity and ferocity as last year yet we still sit number 1 as the best defensive side in the league says that we still must be doing something right to limit opposition teams from scoring

I believe we can turn it on when needed - I can't see how we can lose the ability to implement this gameplan in such a short space of time using the same players - sure teams might be finding it slightly easier to get through our zone but ultimately they are still going to find it hard to score

[35...LEGEND]

Chablett = shorthand for Chapman + Ablett.

They are the 2 to stop ... that's the way I see it anyway.

Barchabwoodtelcoe v Riehaymontdalosi.

Riehaymontdalosigodd.....

[kaos theory]

Still yet to see 4 qtrs of this stuff in 2010 toem thats the single biggest difference to 09

I hope to look back on 2010 and say the single biggest difference to 2009 was that we bloody won it!

I'm not looking for a carbon copy of last year. It didn't turn out too well. I have no idea what this year is supposed to look like, except for the very end. Nothing that happens before then will convince me of anything, one way or another.

I don't think it's entirely by accident that our two best performances for the year came against the two best performed teams of the year. I've seen enough this year to know the Saints can win it. But the only way to prove they will win it is when they do win it.

Did you go to Collingwood Rd 16? cause to me they are the best performed team this year thus far.....how was the intensity that day?

Few things about that day that enables me to remain optimistic Teflon.

At least 8 players (and the coach) had the flu, it just wasn't put out there beforehand like the Dogs, as a means to excuse a potential loss.

We still managed to limit Collingwood's inside 50's to at least 20 below their season average, they just had an amazingly accurate day in front of goal, and they have proven since just how unique that was.

Flipside, our boys could not been more inaccurate.

Collingwood have remained consistent since this game, we have improved. In particular, the attacking side of our game in the last couple of weeks (151, 115, 115)

Ps - It was also the first day Gilbert experienced a heavy tag from memory, he has since learned to cope.

Also:

Roo & gram second game back after long break. Roo stuggled to come up and was alomost going to miss the game. So that's the best forward, which our structure is built around well under par. Also gram very under done and is a key running mid for us.

Also Dal was a late withdrawal, who is our most creative/damaging mid.

Everything went right for them on the day, everything went wrong for us...I'm not scared of playing them again....

I would look forward to it...it will be a very different game....