Pies v Saints - How will our gameplans matchup at peak form?
Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators
Pies v Saints - How will our gameplans matchup at peak form?
OK, so I've been reading the Saintsational forums for some time now and become increasingly eager to participate, but just needed to wait some time for my account to my approved. I love the eternal optimism on here, sprinkled with a fair dose of common sense here and there. So what follows is an impassioned plea for a little of both, to be honest.
In the department of peaking early, while it's a claim we've been throwing about at Collingwood of late, there's a niggling feeling inside me that our game-plan peaked to perfection last year, catching most by surprise, unfortunately the same year a champion team was hell bent on redemption for the lapse of 2008. In hindsight, perhaps it was somewhat inevitable that their drive and hunger to redeem themselves for the pain of 2008 was going to outweigh all potential challengers when you consider their previous big-game experience. In any case, it's history now, and we all have or will come to terms with it in our own way. Hopefully some of that drive and hunger is universal.
Do you get the feeling that Collingwood's gamestyle of late has been specifically tailored by Malthouse to beat both St Kilda and Geelong? I know we beat them at the start of the year, but in retrospect for anyone who was at the game, I think most would concede they lost that game through atrocious inaccuracies on goal and essentially thinking they'd won after Roo went down in the first half.
They seem to have melded a blend of the run-and-carry that's been our achilles heal, aided by their pioneering efforts in interchange, and greatly improved basic skills when operating in floating packs. Harry O' and Didak just seem to explode out of the gates, and Darren Jolly seems superb at winning their clearances.
I believe in our team. I love the devotion they've brought to our club... Milney for saving our butts and stepping up when Nick went down, Lenny for his absolute gut lust for the contest, even everyone's ardent support in Kosi because they made a pact to stick together from the beginning is kind of endearing, and BJ for his absolute all round awesomeness, just to mention a few.
I believe come September something is really going to switch on inside them to undo some of the pain so evident on their faces after the siren last year. I also think we were not at all switched on for the Rd 16 clash this year and we'd bring an entirely different mindset next time we meet.
All that aside, I'm curious what other peoples specific thoughts on the match-ups of our game-styles are now. The contest between Collingwood and St Kilda's finest is what will keep me on the edge of my seat until it's all over, one way or another. We know we can beat Geelong if we're switched on, and it's fair to say the motivation will not be the same as it was last year for them (even if they say it is, the subconscious is a powerful force). Put simply I just don't have enough recent evidence to get my head around how we'd match up with Collingwood when both at our peak form.
To me, even though I know in so many ways its petty, nothing would be more disappointing in 2010 than Collingwood holding up the Cup, their supporters (I know many of them, great people actually, but damn the inner confidence and belief that's hard for a lifelong Sainter to match pisses me off!)... and particularly Luke Ball, ditching one club to arrive at another who go all the way the very next year.
I believe in us... not sure I did a few weeks ago, but I believe again. I suppose now I'm just looking for thoughts from those with good football minds ( and a touch of eternal Saints optimism perhaps ) to help me get my head around what might come next time these two sides meet, when and if we do.
GO SAINTS ;D
In the department of peaking early, while it's a claim we've been throwing about at Collingwood of late, there's a niggling feeling inside me that our game-plan peaked to perfection last year, catching most by surprise, unfortunately the same year a champion team was hell bent on redemption for the lapse of 2008. In hindsight, perhaps it was somewhat inevitable that their drive and hunger to redeem themselves for the pain of 2008 was going to outweigh all potential challengers when you consider their previous big-game experience. In any case, it's history now, and we all have or will come to terms with it in our own way. Hopefully some of that drive and hunger is universal.
Do you get the feeling that Collingwood's gamestyle of late has been specifically tailored by Malthouse to beat both St Kilda and Geelong? I know we beat them at the start of the year, but in retrospect for anyone who was at the game, I think most would concede they lost that game through atrocious inaccuracies on goal and essentially thinking they'd won after Roo went down in the first half.
They seem to have melded a blend of the run-and-carry that's been our achilles heal, aided by their pioneering efforts in interchange, and greatly improved basic skills when operating in floating packs. Harry O' and Didak just seem to explode out of the gates, and Darren Jolly seems superb at winning their clearances.
I believe in our team. I love the devotion they've brought to our club... Milney for saving our butts and stepping up when Nick went down, Lenny for his absolute gut lust for the contest, even everyone's ardent support in Kosi because they made a pact to stick together from the beginning is kind of endearing, and BJ for his absolute all round awesomeness, just to mention a few.
I believe come September something is really going to switch on inside them to undo some of the pain so evident on their faces after the siren last year. I also think we were not at all switched on for the Rd 16 clash this year and we'd bring an entirely different mindset next time we meet.
All that aside, I'm curious what other peoples specific thoughts on the match-ups of our game-styles are now. The contest between Collingwood and St Kilda's finest is what will keep me on the edge of my seat until it's all over, one way or another. We know we can beat Geelong if we're switched on, and it's fair to say the motivation will not be the same as it was last year for them (even if they say it is, the subconscious is a powerful force). Put simply I just don't have enough recent evidence to get my head around how we'd match up with Collingwood when both at our peak form.
To me, even though I know in so many ways its petty, nothing would be more disappointing in 2010 than Collingwood holding up the Cup, their supporters (I know many of them, great people actually, but damn the inner confidence and belief that's hard for a lifelong Sainter to match pisses me off!)... and particularly Luke Ball, ditching one club to arrive at another who go all the way the very next year.
I believe in us... not sure I did a few weeks ago, but I believe again. I suppose now I'm just looking for thoughts from those with good football minds ( and a touch of eternal Saints optimism perhaps ) to help me get my head around what might come next time these two sides meet, when and if we do.
GO SAINTS ;D
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 18653
- Joined: Thu 11 Mar 2004 1:36am
- Has thanked: 1994 times
- Been thanked: 872 times
Re: Pies v Saints - How will our gameplans matchup at peak f
they'd be as worried about meeting us as we are about playing them.
make no mistake about it, they are a very good side, and deserve their premiership favouritism.
but at our best we can beat them.
make no mistake about it, they are a very good side, and deserve their premiership favouritism.
but at our best we can beat them.
Last edited by bigcarl on Wed 11 Aug 2010 6:33pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- SS Hall of Fame
- Posts: 2295
- Joined: Sun 27 Jan 2008 9:05am
- Has thanked: 768 times
- Been thanked: 207 times
- st_Trav_ofWA
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 8886
- Joined: Wed 13 Sep 2006 7:10pm
- Location: Perth
- Contact:
in the end every team will end up carrying some players .... it comes down too how much is left to how many the team that has more players not standing up will be the team that falls over ... we saw that last time we played them when we had more players having bad games then those wwho had good games
"The team that wins in the most positions and makes the least amount of mistakes, usually wins the game." -- Allan Jeans
http://westernsaints.wordpress.com/
http://westernsaints.wordpress.com/
-
- Club Player
- Posts: 248
- Joined: Sat 13 Nov 2004 11:13pm
Good opening post mate.
Despite all the current media hype to the contary, I think we have more tricks in our bag than Collingwood.
Collingwood's game plan is based on quick and precise movement from their backline along the wings to a contest about 20-40m out pretty much in front. The rely on their big forwards (Cloke, Dawes and L.Brown) to create a contest in this zone and use their small forwards and mids (Swan, Didak, Davis, McCaffer, Beams and Sidebottom) to kick the majority of their goals.
Against both Geelong and St. Kilda (the last time), they were able to execute this gameplan and gain a hell a lot of momentum. Crumbing goals got their crowd involved and before we both knew it, we were well behind.
Their weakness is their key forwards as unlike the Saints, they don't have a big guy to sure up proceedings if their plan A isn't working.
Their midfield is also pound for pound less talented than ours. If CJ can get on top of Didak and someone makes Swan accoutable running the other way, we should win the midfield battle (like we have in the past three or four encounters prior to the debacle a month ago.)
Therefore the keys for us to beat Collingwood are:
1. Concerted frontal pressure. We need our best defensive effort in the forward 50 to negate their creative, hard running defence. Guys like Mini, Eddy, and Dempser need to tackle like we know they can. Negating their running backs brings the battle into the midfield, which I think we should win.
2. Release Gilbert and Fisher. If our defensive structure holds up like it should, Gilbert and Fisher will be able to get in front of the Collingwood key forwards, take the marks and prevent as many spillage situations that bring their talented smalls into the game. This can only happen if they are prevented from moving the ball quickly out of defence to give us time to set our zone (Point 1).
3. Devise plan A, B and C and be flexible to change quickly. If the traditional two tall, two small structure isn't working we need the capacity to throw a Gwilt or a BJ quickly forward as another marking option to try and wrestle back some of the initiative. Gardiner going forward is also another weapon we haven't seen much this year that could be vital in September.
4. The relase handball When we are up and about, it is our rapid, clean handballing from defence that allows us to link up and find space. Against Collingwood (last time) and Essendon this area was well down and we were pressured into situations when we were left with little option but to kick quickly to a contest. The commentators claimed that it was the tackling of the opposition forwards that made this occur but a footy can move quicker than a defender, so if our ball movement is as slick as it was last Sunday most teams would struggle applying the required pressure.
5. Small Defence. When the footy does come to ground, our small defenders need to shut down their damaging small forwards. This has been a weekness of ours in the past and our backline looks vulnerable without Bakes. Bakes was pretty close to BOG in round 3 when he shut out Davis as well as gaining a stack of possessions himself. Similiar performances from Geary, Gilbert, Gwilt, Gram or whoever Ross prepares to play back there will go along way to making McCaffer and co look like the GOPs that I think they are.
These are just a few areas which I think are essential for us to beat the Pies. I honestly dont think they are as good as the papers would like to make us think and Ross and the team should know that if we play our best footy, we will be the hunters come September.
Despite all the current media hype to the contary, I think we have more tricks in our bag than Collingwood.
Collingwood's game plan is based on quick and precise movement from their backline along the wings to a contest about 20-40m out pretty much in front. The rely on their big forwards (Cloke, Dawes and L.Brown) to create a contest in this zone and use their small forwards and mids (Swan, Didak, Davis, McCaffer, Beams and Sidebottom) to kick the majority of their goals.
Against both Geelong and St. Kilda (the last time), they were able to execute this gameplan and gain a hell a lot of momentum. Crumbing goals got their crowd involved and before we both knew it, we were well behind.
Their weakness is their key forwards as unlike the Saints, they don't have a big guy to sure up proceedings if their plan A isn't working.
Their midfield is also pound for pound less talented than ours. If CJ can get on top of Didak and someone makes Swan accoutable running the other way, we should win the midfield battle (like we have in the past three or four encounters prior to the debacle a month ago.)
Therefore the keys for us to beat Collingwood are:
1. Concerted frontal pressure. We need our best defensive effort in the forward 50 to negate their creative, hard running defence. Guys like Mini, Eddy, and Dempser need to tackle like we know they can. Negating their running backs brings the battle into the midfield, which I think we should win.
2. Release Gilbert and Fisher. If our defensive structure holds up like it should, Gilbert and Fisher will be able to get in front of the Collingwood key forwards, take the marks and prevent as many spillage situations that bring their talented smalls into the game. This can only happen if they are prevented from moving the ball quickly out of defence to give us time to set our zone (Point 1).
3. Devise plan A, B and C and be flexible to change quickly. If the traditional two tall, two small structure isn't working we need the capacity to throw a Gwilt or a BJ quickly forward as another marking option to try and wrestle back some of the initiative. Gardiner going forward is also another weapon we haven't seen much this year that could be vital in September.
4. The relase handball When we are up and about, it is our rapid, clean handballing from defence that allows us to link up and find space. Against Collingwood (last time) and Essendon this area was well down and we were pressured into situations when we were left with little option but to kick quickly to a contest. The commentators claimed that it was the tackling of the opposition forwards that made this occur but a footy can move quicker than a defender, so if our ball movement is as slick as it was last Sunday most teams would struggle applying the required pressure.
5. Small Defence. When the footy does come to ground, our small defenders need to shut down their damaging small forwards. This has been a weekness of ours in the past and our backline looks vulnerable without Bakes. Bakes was pretty close to BOG in round 3 when he shut out Davis as well as gaining a stack of possessions himself. Similiar performances from Geary, Gilbert, Gwilt, Gram or whoever Ross prepares to play back there will go along way to making McCaffer and co look like the GOPs that I think they are.
These are just a few areas which I think are essential for us to beat the Pies. I honestly dont think they are as good as the papers would like to make us think and Ross and the team should know that if we play our best footy, we will be the hunters come September.
I think the idea that the Saints' game plan has been cracked is rubbish. I have yet to see it beaten when it is executed properly.
As I see it the fundamentals are:
- Relentless pressure on every opposition disposal
- Pressured disposal causes turnovers
- Goals come from turnovers
Everything else is details.
I don't purport to be a master tactician, but the best counter strategy I can think of boils down to:
- Be really good at disposal under pressure
Even then you're not likely to be any more than competitive with the Saints' game plan, when it is executed properly.
As I see it the fundamentals are:
- Relentless pressure on every opposition disposal
- Pressured disposal causes turnovers
- Goals come from turnovers
Everything else is details.
I don't purport to be a master tactician, but the best counter strategy I can think of boils down to:
- Be really good at disposal under pressure
Even then you're not likely to be any more than competitive with the Saints' game plan, when it is executed properly.
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 18653
- Joined: Thu 11 Mar 2004 1:36am
- Has thanked: 1994 times
- Been thanked: 872 times
Oh, common sense, how refreashing!!!!!bigcarl wrote:The Magpies are worried about us and hoping the Lovett trial destablises our club.
The see us as a threat.
"Cause Stone Cold said so"!!!!!
Shane Birss in 2008- Go the Pircha!!!!! RIP
Jarryn Geary-MIP in 2010!!!!!
Armitage=2010 SuperStar!!!!! (Luke Who)?????
Shane Birss in 2008- Go the Pircha!!!!! RIP
Jarryn Geary-MIP in 2010!!!!!
Armitage=2010 SuperStar!!!!! (Luke Who)?????
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 6043
- Joined: Mon 21 May 2007 5:31pm
- Location: Currumbin, Quoinslairnd
I reckon the tell tale sign of when they're 'on' is when they absolutely sprint to man up the mark when the ball's in opposition hands in our forward fifty.saint3d wrote:I think the idea that the Saints' game plan has been cracked is rubbish. I have yet to see it beaten when it is executed properly.
As I see it the fundamentals are:
- Relentless pressure on every opposition disposal
- Pressured disposal causes turnovers
- Goals come from turnovers
Everything else is details.
I don't purport to be a master tactician, but the best counter strategy I can think of boils down to:
- Be really good at disposal under pressure
Even then you're not likely to be any more than competitive with the Saints' game plan, when it is executed properly.
"The inches we need are everywhere around us. They're in every break in the game. Every minute, every second. On this team we fight for that inch. On this team we tear ourselves and everyone around us to pieces for that inch. We claw with our fingernails for that inch. Because we know when we add up all those inches that's gonna make the f***in' difference between winning and losing! Between living and dying!'
Spot on. The other indicator is that the opposition can't put together a chain of handballs that ends with an uncontested possession.Thinline wrote:I reckon the tell tale sign of when they're 'on' is when they absolutely sprint to man up the mark when the ball's in opposition hands in our forward fifty.saint3d wrote:I think the idea that the Saints' game plan has been cracked is rubbish. I have yet to see it beaten when it is executed properly.
As I see it the fundamentals are:
- Relentless pressure on every opposition disposal
- Pressured disposal causes turnovers
- Goals come from turnovers
Everything else is details.
I don't purport to be a master tactician, but the best counter strategy I can think of boils down to:
- Be really good at disposal under pressure
Even then you're not likely to be any more than competitive with the Saints' game plan, when it is executed properly.
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 18653
- Joined: Thu 11 Mar 2004 1:36am
- Has thanked: 1994 times
- Been thanked: 872 times
- Bardon Saint
- Club Player
- Posts: 669
- Joined: Thu 27 Aug 2009 4:04pm
- Location: Cairns
I think St Kilda have been innovators with their game plan. Pressure including tackling had become more evident last season. I feel that Collingwood has adopted this into their game plan this year whereas the saints have not shown the same tenacity. To be so focused and consistent with their (SAINTS) game plan last year and to come up short really hurts. I think the players have subconsciously reduced there effort somewhat, just doing the minimum required to get into the top four. Last week saw a side that may not get that reward so they took it up another level. A switch had been flicked.
The Saints will/are peak/ing at the right time, will not be tired (mentally or physically) by week-week all out efforts (like the last few rounds of last season) and are fine tuning their footy for the finals.
They are building and at their peak, they are better than any other team in the competition (if they kick straight ).
The Saints will/are peak/ing at the right time, will not be tired (mentally or physically) by week-week all out efforts (like the last few rounds of last season) and are fine tuning their footy for the finals.
They are building and at their peak, they are better than any other team in the competition (if they kick straight ).
- saintsRrising
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 30098
- Joined: Mon 15 Mar 2004 11:07am
- Location: Melbourne
- Has thanked: 711 times
- Been thanked: 1235 times
A few points:
* Our gameplan is not the advantage is was last year as clubs have now had time to ape parts of it and/or or develop strategies against it.
*However having said that our gameplan requires great fitness and commitment to fully execute all the time and I tend to believe for this reason that the coaches have not had the team flat to floor with it this year to date (not disputing a form drop though) I expect the intensity to now be lifted, and lifted again in finals matches.
* Roo as he ramps up his match-practice with gametime will continue to improve and especially his field-play.
* The form of Gardiner is IMO quite important on our finals chances and so hopefully a week off this week will freshen him up (though his first half last week was very good).
* Baker: We miss him greatly, and especially against the Cats he will be great to have on SJ. Of concern though will be his lack of match practice.
* Our gameplan is not the advantage is was last year as clubs have now had time to ape parts of it and/or or develop strategies against it.
*However having said that our gameplan requires great fitness and commitment to fully execute all the time and I tend to believe for this reason that the coaches have not had the team flat to floor with it this year to date (not disputing a form drop though) I expect the intensity to now be lifted, and lifted again in finals matches.
* Roo as he ramps up his match-practice with gametime will continue to improve and especially his field-play.
* The form of Gardiner is IMO quite important on our finals chances and so hopefully a week off this week will freshen him up (though his first half last week was very good).
* Baker: We miss him greatly, and especially against the Cats he will be great to have on SJ. Of concern though will be his lack of match practice.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....