Why are SANDRINGHAM doing so poorly ?

[Thinline]

Wait a second...after all the horrific posts above I thought I would check out the ladder..

1 Williamstown 14 12 2 0 0 0 1696 1042 162.76 48
2 North Ballarat 14 12 2 0 0 0 1317 1000 131.70 48
3 Casey Scorpions 14 11 3 0 0 0 1217 1113 109.34 44
4 Port Melbourne 14 9 5 0 0 0 1447 1254 115.39 36
5 Collingwood 14 9 5 0 0 0 1316 1142 115.24 36
6 Northern Bullants 14 8 6 0 0 0 1476 1306 113.02 32
7 Box Hill Hawks 14 8 6 0 0 0 1336 1188 112.46 32
8 Bendigo Bombers 14 7 7 0 0 0 1293 1207 107.13 28
9 Sandringham 14 5 9 0 0 0 1094 1268 86.28 20
10 Gold Coast 14 4 9 1 0 0 1036 1263 82.03 18
11 Coburg Tigers 14 4 10 0 0 0 1211 1402 86.38 16
12 Geelong 14 4 10 0 0 0 1133 1332 85.06 16
13 Werribee Tigers 14 3 10 1 0 0 1213 1509 80.38 14
14 Frankston 14 1 13 0 0 0 804 1563 51.44 4


So Sandy is 9th.

But Cats are 12th!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hawks who are the form team of the competition and have one injury at present are 7th.

Even the Pies are only 5th.


But yet the world is ending?????


Now YES last years recruiting was not the best with Lovett going AWOL...and the J Smith gamble not working this year.


If Lyon follows his pattern into the future our team in 3 years time will be different than it is now with new players coming from:

*kids and rookies (Steven, Stanley almost certainly...Heyne, Walsh and other possibilities)
*trades from other clubs: no way to predict whom...but history would suggest that we will keep trading for niches in our 22

They may be ninth, but a la Brisbane in the AFL they've lost 9 of their last 10.

And if I recall correctly the early wins were against sides currently lower.

Seriously, they're C graders in the B Grade and completely devoid of confidence.

It's the way they go about it that seems to upset most. Lazy and planless.

[saint58]

I think it is not the team so much as the coaching we have saunter in one week then we play Cahill,walsh down back then forward then put lynch in the back line players are all over the place stanley at ff the chf he is not a ff let them settle in one spot.

Our sandy reserves are doing ok they have allmost no saints listed players and lost only by a couple of points in a couple of games.

IF we put a saints team in we dont have the restriction of playing 12 saints players each week and i think it would be far more managable with our young guys.

We have some exciting prospects if let them play not dropping them to the sandy reserves every second week like cahill who is big and strong can mark and is mobile he is a natural chf or chb.

Walsh is quick and would be better suited to the back line for now but can mark and kick pretty well for a first year player from Ireland.

I like the look of hutchines he is a hard at it up and under player and dribbler A smith is quick and a good ball magnet.
J allen and L fisher will not be on the list next year as Fisher is going to gwc and allen retired so that opens up for 2 more rookies.

Watch out for luke miles and very good player with good hands and is a quick player and touch has been injured for a lot of the season just come back.

[plugger66]

I think it is not the team so much as the coaching we have saunter in one week then we play Cahill,walsh down back then forward then put lynch in the back line players are all over the place stanley at ff the chf he is not a ff let them settle in one spot.

Our sandy reserves are doing ok they have allmost no saints listed players and lost only by a couple of points in a couple of games.

IF we put a saints team in we dont have the restriction of playing 12 saints players each week and i think it would be far more managable with our young guys.

We have some exciting prospects if let them play not dropping them to the sandy reserves every second week like cahill who is big and strong can mark and is mobile he is a natural chf or chb.

Walsh is quick and would be better suited to the back line for now but can mark and kick pretty well for a first year player from Ireland.

I like the look of hutchines he is a hard at it up and under player and dribbler A smith is quick and a good ball magnet.
J allen and L fisher will not be on the list next year as Fisher is going to gwc and allen retired so that opens up for 2 more rookies.

Watch out for luke miles and very good player with good hands and is a quick player and touch has been injured for a lot of the season just come back.

I dont think Fisher is going anywhere near GWC, whatever that is, and I would think Miles isnt going to be with us next year. As for the coaching, it is our own coach and he had a pretty good record when he coached Sandy when Melbourne were involved. I think we are looking for excuses that arent there.

[saintsRrising]

You need 3 senior players a year to replace other players. the last 5 years we have had about 6. And I dont mean one or two gamers. I mean genuine senior players. It should be in the range of 11-15 IMO.

Well if we look at last weeks team:

SAINTS
Backs: Zac Dawson / Jason Blake / Sam Gilbert
Half Backs: Jason Gram / Sam Fisher / James Gwilt
Centreline: Brendon Goddard / Nick Dal Santo / Farren Ray
Half Forwards: Clinton Jones / Justin Koschitzke / Leigh Montagna
Forwards: Andrew McQualter / Nick Riewoldt / Stephen Milne
Followers: Michael Gardiner / Lenny Hayes / Adam Schneider
Interchange: Jack Steven / Ben McEvoy / Brett Peake / Sean Dempster


that is nine new players since Lyon arrived.

[plugger66]

You need 3 senior players a year to replace other players. the last 5 years we have had about 6. And I dont mean one or two gamers. I mean genuine senior players. It should be in the range of 11-15 IMO.

Well if we look at last weeks team:

SAINTS
Backs: Zac Dawson / Jason Blake / Sam Gilbert
Half Backs: Jason Gram / Sam Fisher / James Gwilt
Centreline: Brendon Goddard / Nick Dal Santo / Farren Ray
Half Forwards: Clinton Jones / Justin Koschitzke / Leigh Montagna
Forwards: Andrew McQualter / Nick Riewoldt / Stephen Milne
Followers: Michael Gardiner / Lenny Hayes / Adam Schneider
Interchange: Jack Steven / Ben McEvoy / Brett Peake / Sean Dempster


that is nine new players since Lyon arrived.

I was actually looking long term and thinking 18 to 22 year olds. MG and Peake arent going to help us long term and there must be doubts on Dempster as well. They may win us a flag now which is RL's job but this thread is more about the future.

[Con Gorozidis]

So Sandy is 9th.

But Cats are 12th!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hawks who are the form team of the competition and have one injury at present are 7th.

Even the Pies are only 5th.


But yet the world is ending?????

not just judging on this year thinline. weve had a crap vfl side for a few years now. cats won the vfl flag a few years ago (remember kingy played it in). we havent looked competitive for years.

[saintsRrising]

I was actually looking long term and thinking 18 to 22 year olds.

Why?

We recruit from all age ranges and not just kids.

In 4 years time we will have new players in the team and most likely a number of them will be trades.

MG and Peake arent going to help us long term and there must be doubts on Dempster as well. They may win us a flag now which is RL's job but this thread is more about the future.

Well yes Gardiner has say one and bit seasons left.

But if players do not retire how will Stanley and Heyne get in?

Peake. He may play another year...or 5. Ditto with Dempster......or some of our new kids and trades may force them out.


Personally I look at who is likely to go...and I already see replacements. Add to that we will trade for more players as well as draft more kids....and I see us going ok for a while yet.


In 4 years time however the big test will be whether any of our new players have become stars to replace say Hayes and Milne who will not be there then.

Maybe Stanley and Steven...or others will have....maybe not.

I am certainly not panicking yet though.

IMO we now have a best of which many will still be there over the next 3 seasons. We do not have an immediate need for lots of new blood now...not that I would be knocking back any more stars

[bobmurray]

Maybe it's time Beveridge was thanked for his efforts and given the Golden Handshake.Peake has had a hand in a couple of drafts that haven't been too fruitful, maybe he can go as well and we can then employ some recruiters with an eye for players that suit the modern era, players that are quick,have skills on both sides,can hit a target, can play inside and can crumb up forward.

A couple of key position players wouldn't go astray and maybe they could stop wasting time and effort with fruitless NSW scholarship players and look for alternatives

[Con Gorozidis]

dunno. but melbourne are going to pulverise us in 3 years.
they have been stockpiling talent for years now. we need to start pulling some more kids out of somewhere somehow in the next 2 years.

[plugger66]

I was actually looking long term and thinking 18 to 22 year olds.

Why?

We recruit from all age ranges and not just kids.

In 4 years time we will have new players in the team and most likely a number of them will be trades.

MG and Peake arent going to help us long term and there must be doubts on Dempster as well. They may win us a flag now which is RL's job but this thread is more about the future.

Well yes Gardiner has say one and bit seasons left.

But if players do not retire how will Stanley and Heyne get in?

Peake. He may play another year...or 5. Ditto with Dempster......or some of our new kids and trades may force them out.


Personally I look at who is likely to go...and I already see replacements. Add to that we will trade for more players as well as draft more kids....and I see us going ok for a while yet.


In 4 years time however the big test will be whether any of our new players have become stars to replace say Hayes and Milne who will not be there then.

Maybe Stanley and Steven...or others will have....maybe not.

I am certainly not panicking yet though.

IMO we now have a best of which many will still be there over the next 3 seasons. We do not have an immediate need for lots of new blood now...not that I would be knocking back any more stars

We are talking the future. For gods sake get the blinkers off and admit if we dont win the flag in 3 years we are stuffed. By the way i dont have a problem with the recruiting just stating the facts.

[saintly]

dunno. but melbourne are going to pulverise us in 3 years.they have been stockpiling talent for years now. we need to start pulling some more kids out of somewhere somehow in the next 2 years.

that is mostely true.

but it is our fault, 'ours' being either coaching or recruiting, that did not pick up wannamearri (sic) jarrah, garlett , etc. they were either low draft picks or rookies.

Why did we not pick them up? even barlow?

[Thinline]

So Sandy is 9th.

But Cats are 12th!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hawks who are the form team of the competition and have one injury at present are 7th.

Even the Pies are only 5th.


But yet the world is ending?????

not just judging on this year thinline. weve had a crap vfl side for a few years now. cats won the vfl flag a few years ago (remember kingy played it in). we havent looked competitive for years.

I didn't write that Con. I quoted it for it's wrongness.

Sandy are s***.

[rodgerfox]

Our 'bottom 6' reek.

So when these 'bottom 6' players go to Sandy, they pretty much play to their capabilities. They don't have guys like Roo, Lenny, Dal, BJ etc. to drag them along.

That's why there's no great impact by these guys at Sandy.

[Thinline]

Our 'bottom 6' reek.

So when these 'bottom 6' players go to Sandy, they pretty much play to their capabilities. They don't have guys like Roo, Lenny, Dal, BJ etc. to drag them along.

That's why there's no great impact by these guys at Sandy.

Our bottom six are our bottom six. Like every other bottom six at every other club, they are not game breakers.

They go to Sandy and they are expected to be gamebreakers when surrounded by park amateurs who it seems to me are playing for no other reason than to keep fit. Maybe that's the strategy.

[WinnersOnly]

Our lack of depth is an issue for us NOW...

Have a look who Collingwood have running around in their VFL team - Josh Fraser, Paul Medhurst, Jack Anthony, Tarkyn Lockyer, Nathan Brown, Sean Rusling, Shane Obree & Brad Dick.

All with AFL experience and a number of them would get a game in the Saints AFL team. The reason these blokes aren't playing AFL is that Collingwood have recruited well, plus a number of their younger players have come through.

[Thinline]

Our lack of depth is an issue for us NOW...

Have a look who Collingwood have running around in their VFL team - Josh Fraser, Paul Medhurst, Jack Anthony, Tarkyn Lockyer, Nathan Brown, Sean Rusling, Shane Obree & Brad Dick.

All with AFL experience and a number of them would get a game in the Saints AFL team. The reason these blokes aren't playing AFL is that Collingwood have recruited well, plus a number of their younger players have come through.

Agree with your basic sentiment, but 5 maybe 6 of that list (Fraser, Lockyer, Rusling, O'Bree, arguably Medhurst, arguably Anthony) are goneski at AFL level and/or very much on the waning fringe)...

Flipside is we have 5 maybe 6 still a chance of making it.

People go on about the Pies depth. I don't buy it.

[ace]

Maybe it's time Beveridge was thanked for his efforts and given the Golden Handshake.Peake has had a hand in a couple of drafts that haven't been too fruitful, maybe he can go as well and we can then employ some recruiters with an eye for players that suit the modern era, players that are quick,have skills on both sides,can hit a target, can play inside and can crumb up forward.

A couple of key position players wouldn't go astray and maybe they could stop wasting time and effort with fruitless NSW scholarship players and look for alternatives

The NSW scholarship players have been fruitless
BUT
the AFL was paying the clubs the money for the scholarships, but with GWS that has now ceased.
and the AFL created 3 special rookie places on club lists that can only be filled by former scholarship players.

The only impact they have had at St Kilda is the cost of their rookie salary.
So their cost was minimal and they did not clog a normal rookie place.

Despite the list at Saints.com.au, I think only Jackson Ferguson and Kane Murphy remain on scholarships and only one of the special rookie places is filled by Blake McGrath who is a permanent in Sandy reserves.

[plugger66]

dunno. but melbourne are going to pulverise us in 3 years.they have been stockpiling talent for years now. we need to start pulling some more kids out of somewhere somehow in the next 2 years.

that is mostely true.

but it is our fault, 'ours' being either coaching or recruiting, that did not pick up wannamearri (sic) jarrah, garlett , etc. they were either low draft picks or rookies.

Why did we not pick them up? even barlow?

I cant believe didnt pick them up. Everyone in the AFL knew they were going to be stars except us.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

The season Sandy is having is little to do with the Saints future. They're seperate discussions.

Saints impact on Sandy is probably negative through 2010 - changing personnel who don't train regularly enough, lack of consistency through the 2 team's approaches... all the kind of things you expect through 2 teams that are still pretty new to their relationship. Apart from a few (Armo, Geary, Raph) who when in dominant at the level, it's not necessarily a huge bonus when we hand them a player for a few weeks - good talent, but most VFL clubs will have that.

Saints listed performances at VFL wouldn't really be expected to be a lot better either. Apart from the aforementioned few, we're still talking about boys in a men's league. Talent v fitness.

Plenty of reason to worry where the Saints will be at in 3-5 years: our best 22 is dominated by guys from the '01 draft, our captain was from the class of 2000. A lot of holes to fill.

On the other hand it's still far enough out to be hard to project - especially when you consider we've obviously got to prioritise the opportunity in front of us.

[MCG-Unit]

Yes anyone could have picked Barlow up - except that he did the pre-season with the Saints 2 years ago (so did Rohan Bail, I think)

If they thought enough of him to invite him to train - it would have been good if they had seen enough to at least Rookie list him

[plugger66]

Yes anyone could have picked Barlow up - except that he did the pre-season with the Saints 2 years ago (so did Rohan Bail, I think)

If they thought enough of him to invite him to train - it would have been good if they had seen enough to at least Rookie list him

That was 2 season ago. He wasnt even picked up by the club affiliated with who he played with last season. When he trained with us he hadnt even played VFL footy. By the way there could be 20 training with us. Should we have drafted them all or only the good ones after the event. With hindsight we could be going for our 113th flag in a row.

[CURLY]

You cant compare Collingwoods VFL side with ours at present. For one Collingwood have no injuries what ever and second there whole team trains together every week. Also if we retained our older players over the years we'd be going around dominating against kids in the twos. Fraser Obree Medhurst are all finished at AFL level.

[MCG-Unit]

Yes anyone could have picked Barlow up - except that he did the pre-season with the Saints 2 years ago (so did Rohan Bail, I think)

If they thought enough of him to invite him to train - it would have been good if they had seen enough to at least Rookie list him

That was 2 season ago. He wasnt even picked up by the club affiliated with who he played with last season. When he trained with us he hadnt even played VFL footy. By the way there could be 20 training with us. Should we have drafted them all or only the good ones after the event. With hindsight we could be going for our 113th flag in a row.

I don't know the full details, but they never have ..'20 training' with them.

They might have had 4 doing pre-season last year, 2 years ago Barlow and Bail may have been the only 2. It's a privilege to be invited to pre-season. They hand pick these guys....otherwise why bring Bail down from Qld ?

It's not 'after the event' (Drafts) - it's before, when you train with a club.
If he hadn't played at VFL level - why did they invite him to training ? They must have seen something in him...that's what shrewd recruiting is, seeing beyond a rough exterior

[noob]

I think the players we've picked up in the draft have been potential not talent. Its hard to pick decent players or players who are going to be superstars when they older because basically we've been playing finals (and will again) 6 in the last 7 years and also the other time we finished 9th.. So basically by the time our pick has arrived 15+ talented players have already passed.
Our so called depth has been average for years...
It would be interesting to know how many times our 2nds have the finals in the last 10 years.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I think the players we've picked up in the draft have been potential not talent. Its hard to pick decent players or players who are going to be superstars when they older because basically we've been playing finals (and will again) 6 in the last 7 years and also the other time we finished 9th.. So basically by the time our pick has arrived 15+ talented players have already passed.
Our so called depth has been average for years...
It would be interesting to know how many times our 2nds have the finals in the last 10 years.

Through the course of 2010, St Kilda has maintained a top 4 spot while missing Nick Reiwoldt and Jason Gram - among others.

Anyone saying St Kilda doesn't have outstanding depth because Sandy's in 9th needs to check their priorities.