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Mr Magic wrote:I heard the umpire explain to Joey (on teh replay) that it was Buddy's 'natural arc'.
Could someone who knows the rules please explain where I can find 'natural arc' in either the rulebook or the DVD so that I can better understand how a player on the boundary line can move 5 steps to his side without it being 'play on' and yet others can move 1 step and be called to 'play on'?
Who determines each player's 'natural arc'?
You know the rules are flexible against us don't you? Make them up however you can...it'simple. They don't like Bakes,Milne,Schneider....and have a lasting hatred from the GT days. Probably better that we cleared these lot off at years end,maybe we can play on a level playing field again. Then us supporters can go into games again maybe knowing that we will have a fair game officiated
What are you saying? that they wanted the hawks to win.
You didn't watch the game? I'm confused....if you didn't watch the game then why are you commenting?
I was at the game. Did the umpires want the Hawks to win?
From the beginning of the 4th quarter it certainly appeared so, yes. Did you keep an eye on Jeff at 3/4 time? Where was he??
got to laugh cause we thought they wanted you lot to win lol
if play on was not called and your guy from all accounts was told and he still moved forward when told he should not ! then as plugger66 said the umps got it right ! simple !
he kicks like that and has done so since he started footy the afl did come out and did say that he is not breaking any rule back when he was just starting out !
mind you it is not 8 mts like some one said that would be play on !
golden hawk wrote:got to laugh cause we thought they wanted you lot to win lol
if play on was not called and your guy from all accounts was told and he still moved forward when told he should not ! then as plugger66 said the umps got it right ! simple !
he kicks like that and has done so since he started footy the afl did come out and did say that he is not breaking any rule back when he was just starting out !
mind you it is not 8 mts like some one said that would be play on !
Some players get half a step before play on is called. The rule should be consistently applied.
This is like trying to justify that Murali doesn't throw the ball in cricket. We all know he does so they changed the rule to allow him to ply his trade. Until they do that for Buddy, he should be called "play on" once he strays from his line which is a straight line between the goals and the mark. There is NO concept or rule of natural ark.
Couldn't agree more. Why are the rules bent for one player? Hang on, not even bent...just completely ignored. How can they possibly justify that?
If you run off the line it is play on....I would've thought that was one rule that was pretty easily defined and easy to interpret. If the umpire didn't call play on and Monty ran in - that's 50m, no problem with that. The issue is how one player can have a rule completely ignored for him (and no one else) just because that is his "natural kicking style".
Bad luck I say. Change it then - if it is not within the rules, then change your kicking style - don't just have one rule for the entire competition except for one player. Ridiculous.
Surely Sandilands can argue that his "natural tackling style" is to simply put his arms out and wrap them around his opponent like everyone else does - the fact that he is 14ft tall means that he takes everyone else's heads off in the process, but we'll just let that go because it's his "natural tackling style".
Absurd.
Please...let's win a Premiership before GEELONG!!!! (O.k., so we've missed that opportunity...maybe let's win the next one before Geelong????)
golden hawk wrote:got to laugh cause we thought they wanted you lot to win lol
if play on was not called and your guy from all accounts was told and he still moved forward when told he should not ! then as plugger66 said the umps got it right ! simple !
he kicks like that and has done so since he started footy the afl did come out and did say that he is not breaking any rule back when he was just starting out !
mind you it is not 8 mts like some one said that would be play on !
Some players get half a step before play on is called. The rule should be consistently applied.
This is like trying to justify that Murali doesn't throw the ball in cricket. We all know he does so they changed the rule to allow him to ply his trade. Until they do that for Buddy, he should be called "play on" once he strays from his line which is a straight line between the goals and the mark. There is NO concept or rule of natural ark.
there are players other then buddy that do it too one of your guys did it too that night someone said on another site and they were not a hawk supporter he is moving forward and the afl said back at the being they that it is his natural way of kicking left footers have it not just him if he is playing on which he does now and then he spins around and kicks mind you he is not guaranteed of getting the goal how he runs up any way just look at how many he missed when he kicked his ton let alone every other year !
golden hawk wrote:got to laugh cause we thought they wanted you lot to win lol
if play on was not called and your guy from all accounts was told and he still moved forward when told he should not ! then as plugger66 said the umps got it right ! simple !
he kicks like that and has done so since he started footy the afl did come out and did say that he is not breaking any rule back when he was just starting out !
mind you it is not 8 mts like some one said that would be play on !
Some players get half a step before play on is called. The rule should be consistently applied.
This is like trying to justify that Murali doesn't throw the ball in cricket. We all know he does so they changed the rule to allow him to ply his trade. Until they do that for Buddy, he should be called "play on" once he strays from his line which is a straight line between the goals and the mark. There is NO concept or rule of natural ark.
there are players other then buddy that do it too one of your guys did it too that night someone said on another site and they were not a hawk supporter he is moving forward and the afl said back at the being they that it is his natural way of kicking left footers have it not just him if he is playing on which he does now and then he spins around and kicks mind you he is not guaranteed of getting the goal how he runs up any way just look at how many he missed when he kicked his ton let alone every other year !
If it's his 'natural arc' then why was he told by the umpire that if he did deviate off his line with his kick after the siren any score would not count because he would have played on?
You can't have it both ways.
Surely it's either deviating off the line or it's not.
Where's the consistancy?
golden hawk wrote:got to laugh cause we thought they wanted you lot to win lol
if play on was not called and your guy from all accounts was told and he still moved forward when told he should not ! then as plugger66 said the umps got it right ! simple !
he kicks like that and has done so since he started footy the afl did come out and did say that he is not breaking any rule back when he was just starting out !
mind you it is not 8 mts like some one said that would be play on !
Some players get half a step before play on is called. The rule should be consistently applied.
This is like trying to justify that Murali doesn't throw the ball in cricket. We all know he does so they changed the rule to allow him to ply his trade. Until they do that for Buddy, he should be called "play on" once he strays from his line which is a straight line between the goals and the mark. There is NO concept or rule of natural ark.
there are players other then buddy that do it too one of your guys did it too that night someone said on another site and they were not a hawk supporter he is moving forward and the afl said back at the being they that it is his natural way of kicking left footers have it not just him if he is playing on which he does now and then he spins around and kicks mind you he is not guaranteed of getting the goal how he runs up any way just look at how many he missed when he kicked his ton let alone every other year !
If it's his 'natural arc' then why was he told by the umpire that if he did deviate off his line with his kick after the siren any score would not count because he would have played on?
You can't have it both ways.
Surely it's either deviating off the line or it's not.
Where's the consistancy?
as i was there i did not have the benifit of that commentary i don't know but i will re watch it as i did record it so i can not comment on that at this moment but he is not the only one to do it ! i have not heard an ump do that before when a player is going for a goal after the siren who knows maybe the ump was wrong to say it too we don't know that and they would not admit it if they were .
anyway it was a great game by both teams ! the umps were crap for both teams ! the surface was crap and it is a wonder there was no more serious injuries like the roo and gibbo one . someone will be sued for it one day i am sure .
golden hawk wrote:got to laugh cause we thought they wanted you lot to win lol
if play on was not called and your guy from all accounts was told and he still moved forward when told he should not ! then as plugger66 said the umps got it right ! simple !
he kicks like that and has done so since he started footy the afl did come out and did say that he is not breaking any rule back when he was just starting out !
mind you it is not 8 mts like some one said that would be play on !
Some players get half a step before play on is called. The rule should be consistently applied.
This is like trying to justify that Murali doesn't throw the ball in cricket. We all know he does so they changed the rule to allow him to ply his trade. Until they do that for Buddy, he should be called "play on" once he strays from his line which is a straight line between the goals and the mark. There is NO concept or rule of natural ark.
there are players other then buddy that do it too one of your guys did it too that night someone said on another site and they were not a hawk supporter he is moving forward and the afl said back at the being they that it is his natural way of kicking left footers have it not just him if he is playing on which he does now and then he spins around and kicks mind you he is not guaranteed of getting the goal how he runs up any way just look at how many he missed when he kicked his ton let alone every other year !
If it's his 'natural arc' then why was he told by the umpire that if he did deviate off his line with his kick after the siren any score would not count because he would have played on?
You can't have it both ways.
Surely it's either deviating off the line or it's not.
Where's the consistancy?
as i was there i did not have the benifit of that commentary i don't know but i will re watch it as i did record it so i can not comment on that at this moment but he is not the only one to do it ! i have not heard an ump do that before when a player is going for a goal after the siren who knows maybe the ump was wrong to say it too we don't know that and they would not admit it if they were .
anyway it was a great game by both teams ! the umps were crap for both teams ! the surface was crap and it is a wonder there was no more serious injuries like the roo and gibbo one . someone will be sued for it one day i am sure .
BJ got called to play on this year after only going to start a step...not even completing it. ie was pinged for potentially going off his line.
Buddy is allowed to cheat every game...
It is simply bloody ridiculous that one player is allowed to cheat a rule that is enforced upon other players.
Even if you accept this "natural arc" bulllshit the argument is still flawed as Buddy does not run in an arc to intersect his mark, bur rather a point 3-5m to the side of it.
This is why it is cheating. If he did not want to cheat he would start 3 odd m to the side and then run in an arc to kick over the mark. He does not..instead he cheats. In the instance raised he gaineda definite advantage in opening up the goal face.
Buddy is condoned and protected cheat. FULL STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
saintsRrising wrote:BJ got called to play on this year after only going to start a step...not even completing it. ie was pinged for potentially going off his line.
Buddy is allowed to cheat every game...
It is simply bloody ridiculous that one player is allowed to cheat a rule that is enforced upon other players.
Even if you accept this "natural arc" bulllshit the argument is still flawed as Buddy does not run in an arc to intersect his mark, bur rather a point 3-5m to the side of it.
This is why it is cheating. If he did not want to cheat he would start 3 odd m to the side and then run in an arc to kick over the mark. He does not..instead he cheats. In the instance raised he gaineda definite advantage in opening up the goal face.
Buddy is condoned and protected cheat. FULL STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOL you have not seen how they treat him in all games ! have you he sure is not as protected as you think !
not sure if Roo cops it still [probably does] but at least he will get most free's for it but Buddy gets held and arms chopped and pushed in the back and he will be lucky if he does get a free for it ! he may get the odd one that would be it . full stop
FraserGehrig wrote:Heard the umpire explaining to Joey that he has to allow for Buddys natural ark, it cant be fair that he gets a larger protected space than others
Especially as he wasn't allowed to have a natural arc when he was having that shot after the siren at the end of the second half. Silly. And unfair.
I thought he went way off his line for that shot, AGAINST his natural arc.
his natural arc is to the right....that time he went to the left...he was actually opening up the goals.......umpire is either a fool...or a cheat....
.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will
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FraserGehrig wrote:Heard the umpire explaining to Joey that he has to allow for Buddys natural ark, it cant be fair that he gets a larger protected space than others
Especially as he wasn't allowed to have a natural arc when he was having that shot after the siren at the end of the second half. Silly. And unfair.
I thought he went way off his line for that shot, AGAINST his natural arc.
his natural arc is to the right....that time he went to the left...he was actually opening up the goals.......umpire is either a fool...or a cheat....
What are you on about. He is a left footer and his natural ark is to the left. How could any left footer have a natural ark to the right? Amazing lack of footy knowledge.
The real problem here is when does the umpire call play on?
You often see a player playon after a free or mark, but it isn't always called. Sometimes the umpire gestures raising both hands. If he handballs to another player are you allowed to tackle if the umpire doesn't call it?
Often it's so obvious that they don't bother calling it, and if you wait for the call you are stuffed. Gehrig used to play on while the umpire wasn't looking, so he couldn't call it...but sometimes they'd let it go.
The bottom line is that rules allow for so many variations in application that when it happens against us it sucks. Of course we couldn't give a stuff if goes against the opposition.
I actually don't see the calling of play on as the problem - that is quite simple, if the ump hasn't called play on you can't go near the bloke with the ball. Of course there will be a time-lapse advantage for the guy with the ball, between him playing on and the umpire actually calling it - unless you change the rule to say he must forward an e-mail letting everyone know what time he will be playing on, that aspect of our great game can't be helped.
The problem seems obvious - why does the rule apply to every player except Buddy? There can be no LOGICAL, REASONABLE excuse for that - it is just unfair to every other player in the competition.
Quite simple I think. It is wrong and should be changed - Buddy should be told he has to alter it or accept that it will be play on as soon as he diverts, as it is for every other player in the AFL.
I'm not saying Buddy gets a free ride from the ump's - certainly not. If anything, he gets a pretty hard run I would think, as most forwards seem to, especially the good ones. It just that in this interpretation, they have got it horribly wrong in my opinion, and it is almost beyond belief that there hasn't been a bigger fuss made over it.
Please...let's win a Premiership before GEELONG!!!! (O.k., so we've missed that opportunity...maybe let's win the next one before Geelong????)
plugger66 wrote:Why would he run to kick like that if it wasnt his natural ark. He wasnt opening up the angle for a shot at goal. The umpires were poor toniight but that decision was 100% correct.
You're mistaken.
Of course it was opening up the angle of the goal.
He was on the boundary line at the Lockett end, kicking on his left. He ran inwards, not outwards to the boundary line.
Not to mant left footers run outwards. Whatch him kick every time it the same. Did the umpire call play on?[/quote
That's very nice for him that he kicks for goal with an arc run up, unfortunately, once you step off the mark it's play on, natural arc or not.
So, because the umpire did not apply the play on correctly, he correctly adjudged joey to have infringed the 5m protection zone.
Stupid officiating.
]
Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friends.
plugger66 wrote:Why would he run to kick like that if it wasnt his natural ark. He wasnt opening up the angle for a shot at goal. The umpires were poor toniight but that decision was 100% correct.
You're mistaken.
Of course it was opening up the angle of the goal.
He was on the boundary line at the Lockett end, kicking on his left. He ran inwards, not outwards to the boundary line.
Not to mant left footers run outwards. Whatch him kick every time it the same. Did the umpire call play on?[/quote
That's very nice for him that he kicks for goal with an arc run up, unfortunately, once you step off the mark it's play on, natural arc or not.
So, because the umpire did not apply the play on correctly, he correctly adjudged joey to have infringed the 5m protection zone.
plugger66 wrote:Sorry but you are wrong. Natural arcs are ok.
Can you quote the rule in the rule book that talks about "natural arcs"?
Rule 17.2e says
the field Umpire is of the opinion that a Player, who has been awarded a Free Kick or a Mark, runs, Handballs or Kicks or attempts to run, Handball or Kick otherwise than over the mark;
Quite clearly any "natural arc" is in a direction other than over the mark. It should be called "play on" every time it occurs.
Last edited by Life Long Saint on Sun 25 Jul 2010 7:45pm, edited 1 time in total.
plugger66 wrote:Sorry but you are wrong. Natural arcs are ok.
Can you quote the rule in the rule book that talks about when an umpire shall call play on when a player strays from his line? Where does it mention "natural arcs"?
No i cant but it has been said plenty of time by umpires and people who know the game better than we do. It is called the common sense rule.
plugger66 wrote:Sorry but you are wrong. Natural arcs are ok.
Can you quote the rule in the rule book that talks about when an umpire shall call play on when a player strays from his line? Where does it mention "natural arcs"?
No i cant but it has been said plenty of time by umpires and people who know the game better than we do. It is called the common sense rule.
Common sense???
WTF? Is this the same common sense that has umpires guessing at not only players intent towards the boundary line but also calling holding the ball decisions when they are clearly blind-sided? The same common sense that has umpires call play on because players have strayed 1m to the left or right going back on a line from a mark? There is no common sense rule here. There is a rule that Buddy is allowed and nobody else in the league is. He is the Murali of the AFL. You watch...They'll amend the rule for next season so what he does is considered legal!
plugger66 wrote:Sorry but you are wrong. Natural arcs are ok.
Can you quote the rule in the rule book that talks about when an umpire shall call play on when a player strays from his line? Where does it mention "natural arcs"?
No i cant but it has been said plenty of time by umpires and people who know the game better than we do. It is called the common sense rule.
Common sense???
WTF? Is this the same common sense that has umpires guessing at not only players intent towards the boundary line but also calling holding the ball decisions when they are clearly blind-sided? The same common sense that has umpires call play on because players have strayed 1m to the left or right going back on a line from a mark? There is no common sense rule here. There is a rule that Buddy is allowed and nobody else in the league is. He is the Murali of the AFL. You watch...They'll amend the rule for next season so what he does is considered legal!
Funnily I just saw Ebert from Pt Adelaide do the same thing when kicking for goal. No call of play on. Common sense. If a player steps off the mark they are obviously wanting to play on.
plugger66 wrote:Sorry but you are wrong. Natural arcs are ok.
Can you quote the rule in the rule book that talks about when an umpire shall call play on when a player strays from his line? Where does it mention "natural arcs"?
No i cant but it has been said plenty of time by umpires and people who know the game better than we do. It is called the common sense rule.
Common sense???
WTF? Is this the same common sense that has umpires guessing at not only players intent towards the boundary line but also calling holding the ball decisions when they are clearly blind-sided? The same common sense that has umpires call play on because players have strayed 1m to the left or right going back on a line from a mark? There is no common sense rule here. There is a rule that Buddy is allowed and nobody else in the league is. He is the Murali of the AFL. You watch...They'll amend the rule for next season so what he does is considered legal!
Funnily I just saw Ebert from Pt Adelaide do the same thing when kicking for goal. No call of play on. Common sense. If a player steps off the mark they are obviously wanting to play on.
What about when they are running backwards to give themselves space at the ball and forget to get their spirit level out and stray to the left or right by a metre? Where's the common sense there? The haven't stepped over the mark to play on and, if given the chance, will probably kick it over the mark. I can guarantee you that Buddy does not kick over the man on the mark. He would avoid him by a number of metres given that he's run five metres on his "natural arc"!
plugger66 wrote:Sorry but you are wrong. Natural arcs are ok.
Can you quote the rule in the rule book that talks about when an umpire shall call play on when a player strays from his line? Where does it mention "natural arcs"?
No i cant but it has been said plenty of time by umpires and people who know the game better than we do. It is called the common sense rule.
Common sense???
WTF? Is this the same common sense that has umpires guessing at not only players intent towards the boundary line but also calling holding the ball decisions when they are clearly blind-sided? The same common sense that has umpires call play on because players have strayed 1m to the left or right going back on a line from a mark? There is no common sense rule here. There is a rule that Buddy is allowed and nobody else in the league is. He is the Murali of the AFL. You watch...They'll amend the rule for next season so what he does is considered legal!
Funnily I just saw Ebert from Pt Adelaide do the same thing when kicking for goal. No call of play on. Common sense. If a player steps off the mark they are obviously wanting to play on.
What about when they are running backwards to give themselves space at the ball and forget to get their spirit level out and stray to the left or right by a metre? Where's the common sense there? The haven't stepped over the mark to play on and, if given the chance, will probably kick it over the mark. I can guarantee you that Buddy does not kick over the man on the mark. He would avoid him by a number of metres given that he's run five metres on his "natural arc"!
He is shooting for goal. Why does the man on the mark matter. He isnt doing a low pass. Probably even proves more it is natural.
plugger66 wrote:Sorry but you are wrong. Natural arcs are ok.
Can you quote the rule in the rule book that talks about when an umpire shall call play on when a player strays from his line? Where does it mention "natural arcs"?
No i cant but it has been said plenty of time by umpires and people who know the game better than we do. It is called the common sense rule.
Common sense???
WTF? Is this the same common sense that has umpires guessing at not only players intent towards the boundary line but also calling holding the ball decisions when they are clearly blind-sided? The same common sense that has umpires call play on because players have strayed 1m to the left or right going back on a line from a mark? There is no common sense rule here. There is a rule that Buddy is allowed and nobody else in the league is. He is the Murali of the AFL. You watch...They'll amend the rule for next season so what he does is considered legal!
Funnily I just saw Ebert from Pt Adelaide do the same thing when kicking for goal. No call of play on. Common sense. If a player steps off the mark they are obviously wanting to play on.
What about when they are running backwards to give themselves space at the ball and forget to get their spirit level out and stray to the left or right by a metre? Where's the common sense there? The haven't stepped over the mark to play on and, if given the chance, will probably kick it over the mark. I can guarantee you that Buddy does not kick over the man on the mark. He would avoid him by a number of metres given that he's run five metres on his "natural arc"!
He is shooting for goal. Why does the man on the mark matter. He isnt doing a low pass. Probably even proves more it is natural.
Because he's the bloke you're supposed to be kicking over the top of! He defines the line between the kicker and the goals! If the ball is not being kicked over his head then the kicker has played on! And you call yourself an umpire!
plugger66 wrote:Sorry but you are wrong. Natural arcs are ok.
Can you quote the rule in the rule book that talks about when an umpire shall call play on when a player strays from his line? Where does it mention "natural arcs"?
No i cant but it has been said plenty of time by umpires and people who know the game better than we do. It is called the common sense rule.
Common sense???
WTF? Is this the same common sense that has umpires guessing at not only players intent towards the boundary line but also calling holding the ball decisions when they are clearly blind-sided? The same common sense that has umpires call play on because players have strayed 1m to the left or right going back on a line from a mark? There is no common sense rule here. There is a rule that Buddy is allowed and nobody else in the league is. He is the Murali of the AFL. You watch...They'll amend the rule for next season so what he does is considered legal!
Funnily I just saw Ebert from Pt Adelaide do the same thing when kicking for goal. No call of play on. Common sense. If a player steps off the mark they are obviously wanting to play on.
What about when they are running backwards to give themselves space at the ball and forget to get their spirit level out and stray to the left or right by a metre? Where's the common sense there? The haven't stepped over the mark to play on and, if given the chance, will probably kick it over the mark. I can guarantee you that Buddy does not kick over the man on the mark. He would avoid him by a number of metres given that he's run five metres on his "natural arc"!
He is shooting for goal. Why does the man on the mark matter. He isnt doing a low pass. Probably even proves more it is natural.
Because he's the bloke you're supposed to be kicking over the top of! He defines the line between the kicker and the goals! If the ball is not being kicked over his head then the kicker has played on! And you call yourself an umpire!
plugger66 wrote:Sorry but you are wrong. Natural arcs are ok.
Can you quote the rule in the rule book that talks about when an umpire shall call play on when a player strays from his line? Where does it mention "natural arcs"?
No i cant but it has been said plenty of time by umpires and people who know the game better than we do. It is called the common sense rule.[/quote
Wow where's that written, because there's a few out there umpiring that have never read that one....
