Heyne

[claystreet]

I think he will play VFL and someone like Steven will replace him so as to 1: keep getting games into these boys and 2: Steven didnt have a run on the weekend and should be cherry ripe.

Cant wait to see both Heyne and Steven with about 50 games in them.

[plugger66]

IMO we have a great bunch of youngsters coming through...

I honestly believe that all of Heyne, Stanley, Geary and McEvoy will make it, I also believe that Armo will but I'm not so sure it will be with us...

I think you are spot on. Can't do enough to keep his spot or please Lyon.

I have stuck up for Dave as you well know DWOODROW, I think he has the ability to really be an asset to the side.

I thought the Freo game was going to be his breakout game, something seemed to click in the last quarter, but he has been well down since.

I think Dave's danger this year was always going to be a lack of competition for his spot.

I dont understand your last statement. Do you actually think a 20 gamer over 4 years cant play at his best because he just thought he would get a game. I dont think so myself.

[DWOODROW]

This is Heynes post. I did not get to see all of the game but have heard he will get better. I have absolutely no idea about Armo as he has gone into the Bear cave. Only he knows what his future holds. ( and Ross Lyon)

[saintbrat]

This is Heynes post. I did not get to see all of the game but have heard he will get better. I have absolutely no idea about Armo as he has gone into the Bear cave. Only he knows what his future holds. ( and Ross Lyon)

tell him to keep looking for the light and hopefully winter will end soon.. but the woprld may have changed slightly when he returns.

[SaintWodonga]

did bugger all today. but i like the look of the kid. so give him another week in the ones i reckon.

I'd keep him in in front of mini & Dawkson!

[joffaboy]

Tends to drift in and out of a game. Not suprising considering he was only playing he second seniors game.

What favoured him on the weekend was that we began to kick long and direct into the forward line. This is one of his strengths. He has a lovely long kick. A different in close game and he may struggle.

We are also a bit too heavy with left footers. Gilbert and Jones are constantly forced onto their right as opposition players know they have no right foot. If Heyne is a typical left sided player it may be a problem.

Not a bad first up effort, maybe a time for a spell. He knows what is required. He knows what type of fitness, intensity and skill level needed to succeed at seniors level. Let him hone is craft at VFL for a while. Wouldn't be suprised to see him get a gig later in the season.

[SaintWodonga]

Heyne in his two games has had some flashes. But lacked 4 quarters which is not surprising fora debatant.

These two games will be good for his development. However he has not quite done enough and so it would not surprise to see him omitted and someone else given their turn.

Heyne: Suspect he will be omitted.
Stanley: I suspect will be retained as an extra tall forward helps to keep our back structures.
Ben: Played quite well. Is a definite to stay. Hopefully this week will have been a turning point in his career with him now becominga permanent fixture and growing each week.

Peake: IMo did enough to stay and his pace is important with Gram out.

Raph: Played a very good game and will stay.
McQualter: Has to be on thin ground.

Armo and Steven: I would like to see one of them come in for Mini. IMO Armo. Steven might replace Heyne.


INs and OUTS:

In: Armo and Steven
Out: Heyne and Mini

These two changes would also inject some fresh legs into a team on a 6 day break returning from the West.

I would play BJ forward though with rotations thru the middle). This along with Stanley means that 3 smalls are not required. Mini out.

With Kosi, Stanly and BJ all as marking targets it will spread the load. Both Stanley and BJ can be midfield marking targets/links as well.

Geary is in the mic too. Though witha settled back we are in more in need ofa HF, Mid. However Geary is a good runner.

You'd keep Dawson in after his 1 touch?

[joffaboy]

You'd keep Dawson in after his 1 touch?

How many did Lynch kick again?

[SaintWodonga]

You'd keep Dawson in after his 1 touch?

How many did Lynch kick again?

Joffa, even you would have to say he (Dawson) has done nothing this year, it's a lot more than last week. Needs a spell in the 2's. I reckon Heyne should have 1 more run.

[Beekay]

Best thing about Heyne is that he is balanced and has good core strength. On top of good kicking skills, that is a lot to work with. Hate nothing more than players who fall or slip over.... especially around goal! The development of these players is essential to taking on Geelong imo. Geelong seem to have a side full of players that are skilled, tough and nimble.

Give him another game.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Let's be honest: if Nick Heyne retains his spot, it's only because we're trying to develop him. Was playing a tough role, but only came into it once our pressure players, ball winners, and marking players got on top.

It's a tough ask at Subi and all for a kid, but for mine he's had a taste to get a feel for what's needed, now he gets sent back and told to earn his next shot at it. Armitage I'd have ahead (and is the guy kicking around who might be able to push McQualter in a similar role, whose game has dropped from '09, but is still well ahead of Heyne/Steven).

Give Stanley another shot as he seemed to get more comfortable as the game wore on, and we need another tall forward option right now.

I just reckon that Armo and Steven have had plenty of chances and are still in the outer.

Good teams have medium sized forwards.
We need a medium sized forward.
Heyne has a couple of things going for him - the right height and long kick so I'd persevere with him ahead of Armo and Steven who as midfielders/small forwards are competing against more established and better players.

Whereas who is Heyne competing against - who is a better medium sized forward who has settled in that important role ?
Having said that i wouldn't be surprised if he's dropped... but i think it'll be a shame.

Things I disagree with:
-That Steven has had plenty of chances - he's played 3 AFL games.
-That Armo has had plenty of chances - he's played 26 games.
-That "good teams have medium sized forwards" means we "need a medium sized forward" - we are a good team. Not as good as we'd be with Roo, not even as good as we'd be with a good medium forward, but we're NOT going to get that player out of some with < 50 games.

The decision on Heyne is twofold:
- what's best for his development towards being an AFL grade footballer? (he isn't one right now)
- what's best for the team? If we look at the group of Heyne, Steven, Armitage (others in this thread seem to be throwing in Mini, but IMO Mini's waaaay ahead of that group right now) who are on the borderline, Armitage is the most game ready (i.e. if we were playing Geelong, he'd be the guy), but seems to be viewed as an onballer.

Steven and Heyne seem pretty even to me. They've been given a taste, but neither's ready. I'd send them back to the V with the message that if they can string a couple of weeks in the bests together, they'll get another crack. I'd try Armitage in the roving HFF role (as an onballer he needs to do a better job of getting to the second contest - same as Luke Ball circa '09... however with Armo there's far more room to let him develop towards that within the AFL team).

There is some room for flexibility - we've got a couple of weeks against lesser competition before facing Freo and Geelong. If we wanted to give Heyne another run to see if he could build on his 2nd half out west, it might work. I don't tend to think that games for the sake of games is a great way to push to the next step though.

[plugger66]

I just cant see how Armo can come outside the 25 with the seniors winning and the reserves not even playing. If they do drop Heyne the obviously replacement is Steven who went back to the seconds and was best on the ground. They play nothing like each other so it will depend on what RL wants or expects out of our HFF.

[samoht]

Things I disagree with:
-That Steven has had plenty of chances - he's played 3 AFL games.
-That Armo has had plenty of chances - he's played 26 games.
-That "good teams have medium sized forwards" means we "need a medium sized forward" - we are a good team. Not as good as we'd be with Roo, not even as good as we'd be with a good medium forward, but we're NOT going to get that player out of some with < 50 games.

The decision on Heyne is twofold:
- what's best for his development towards being an AFL grade footballer? (he isn't one right now)
- what's best for the team? If we look at the group of Heyne, Steven, Armitage (others in this thread seem to be throwing in Mini, but IMO Mini's waaaay ahead of that group right now) who are on the borderline, Armitage is the most game ready (i.e. if we were playing Geelong, he'd be the guy), but seems to be viewed as an onballer.

Steven and Heyne seem pretty even to me. They've been given a taste, but neither's ready. I'd send them back to the V with the message that if they can string a couple of weeks in the bests together, they'll get another crack. I'd try Armitage in the roving HFF role (as an onballer he needs to do a better job of getting to the second contest - same as Luke Ball circa '09... however with Armo there's far more room to let him develop towards that within the AFL team).

There is some room for flexibility - we've got a couple of weeks against lesser competition before facing Freo and Geelong. If we wanted to give Heyne another run to see if he could build on his 2nd half out west, it might work. I don't tend to think that games for the sake of games is a great way to push to the next step though.

First and foremost ..
We are talking about a tallish medium sized forward role (Heyne) vs the midfield and small forward role (Armo and Steven) .. so 2 different positions.
Heyne at 187cm and with that beautiful long kick is more suited to becoming that tallish medium sized forward than either of those players.

So -
Whereas Steven and Armo are competing for positions where there are better established players... Heyne is not.

The point is -
Heyne is already at least as good as anyone who's tried to play the pemanent tallish medium forward role and failed - and at least Heyne has some upside potential.
So Heyne's not weakening the side -as there's no one better for that role and as there's a real chance for upside - I personally think it's a no brainer - we need to keep playing him.

Forward pressure is important too (that's been lacking lately) and Heyne had 5 tackles.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Things I disagree with:
-That Steven has had plenty of chances - he's played 3 AFL games.
-That Armo has had plenty of chances - he's played 26 games.
-That "good teams have medium sized forwards" means we "need a medium sized forward" - we are a good team. Not as good as we'd be with Roo, not even as good as we'd be with a good medium forward, but we're NOT going to get that player out of some with < 50 games.

The decision on Heyne is twofold:
- what's best for his development towards being an AFL grade footballer? (he isn't one right now)
- what's best for the team? If we look at the group of Heyne, Steven, Armitage (others in this thread seem to be throwing in Mini, but IMO Mini's waaaay ahead of that group right now) who are on the borderline, Armitage is the most game ready (i.e. if we were playing Geelong, he'd be the guy), but seems to be viewed as an onballer.

Steven and Heyne seem pretty even to me. They've been given a taste, but neither's ready. I'd send them back to the V with the message that if they can string a couple of weeks in the bests together, they'll get another crack. I'd try Armitage in the roving HFF role (as an onballer he needs to do a better job of getting to the second contest - same as Luke Ball circa '09... however with Armo there's far more room to let him develop towards that within the AFL team).

There is some room for flexibility - we've got a couple of weeks against lesser competition before facing Freo and Geelong. If we wanted to give Heyne another run to see if he could build on his 2nd half out west, it might work. I don't tend to think that games for the sake of games is a great way to push to the next step though.

First and foremost ..
We are talking about a tallish medium sized forward role (Heyne) vs the midfield and small forward role (Armo and Steven) .. so 2 different positions.
Heyne at 187cm and with that beautiful long kick is more suited to becoming that tallish medium sized forward than either of those players.

I think Steven also had a couple of NAB games too this year ?.. so he's probably played say 5 games this year - has had 5 opportunities .. vs only 2 from Heyne.
In those 5 games (or even if it's 3) he hasn't done anything special that would place him ahead of our other small forwards or other midfield players.
and 26 games from Armo is still 24 games more than Heyne - who in our midfield or which small forward is Armo going to replace ?

For the last few years we've been searching for or hoping to develop "a" permanent medium sized forward - as every good side has at least one.
Heyne is the right size.
As I see it Heyne is not competing against anyone who's proven themselves better suited for the medium sized forward role... no one has established themselves.
So as noo one is capable of playing that permanent tallish medium sized forward role any better - why not let Heyne develop into it ?
Heyne is already at least as good as anyone who's tried to play the pemanent tallish medium forward role and failed - and at least Heyne has some upside potential.
So Heyne's not weakening the side -as there's no one better for that role and as there's a real chance for upside - I personally think it's a no brainer - we need to keep playing him.

There are 2 separate discussions here: Nick Heyne's spot int he 22, and the role of the medium forward.

On the first, I don't think he's in the best 22. Only reason to keep him is to continue to put experience into him - which is a valid approach.

On the latter, if it's assessed as a crucial role to fill in '09, I absolutely think there are better options today. Slide Ray forward, he's got the height, marking and kicking to pull it off, and the defensive side to run with a McLeod. I also think Gwilt in his time in the role contributed more, and we've certainly got mroe defensive options.

I'm not convinced "all good teams have one", and even less convinced that at this stage Heyne could meaningfully fill the role. We're all hoping he eventually emerges into a Steve Johnson/Ryan O'Keefe type... but not yet.

[Con Gorozidis]

I liked the look of the kid.

Yeah, for two and a half quarters it looked like he and a few mates thought they were in a beauty contest.

with the cost of dry cleaning its no wonder! him and zac were just saving the club money

[Con Gorozidis]

Best thing about Heyne is that he is balanced and has good core strength. On top of good kicking skills, that is a lot to work with. Hate nothing more than players who fall or slip over.... especially around goal! The development of these players is essential to taking on Geelong imo. Geelong seem to have a side full of players that are skilled, tough and nimble.

Give him another game.

+ 1

[samoht]

On the first, I don't think he's in the best 22. Only reason to keep him is to continue to put experience into him - which is a valid approach.

On the latter, if it's assessed as a crucial role to fill in '09, I absolutely think there are better options today. Slide Ray forward, he's got the height, marking and kicking to pull it off, and the defensive side to run with a McLeod. I also think Gwilt in his time in the role contributed more, and we've certainly got mroe defensive options.

I'm not convinced "all good teams have one", and even less convinced that at this stage Heyne could meaningfully fill the role. We're all hoping he eventually emerges into a Steve Johnson/Ryan O'Keefe type... but not yet.

So is Armo and Steven in your best 22 then ?
Would you bring one of them in for Heyne ?

Who comes in while Heyne goes out ?

Bear in mind we may have too many small forwards already.

To retain our structure and "leak" less goals - Ray may be better suited to rotating through the other half forward flank (there's 2 flanks after all) and alternating on that flank with BJ ? ..and creating mismatches as he like BJ is a good mark and will probably outmark his opponent that he happens to drag forward on occasion.

When you are a permanent forward - you usually get a permanent and better defender.
Will Ray do well against a specialist defender if he plays as a specialist forward?
Anyway ..
- I can't see why Heyne can't develop as the permanent half forward on the other flank... both things can happen.
i.e. playing Ray forward on occasion (say 30% of his match time) does not have to exclude Heyne .

[BAM! (shhhh)]

On the first, I don't think he's in the best 22. Only reason to keep him is to continue to put experience into him - which is a valid approach.

On the latter, if it's assessed as a crucial role to fill in '09, I absolutely think there are better options today. Slide Ray forward, he's got the height, marking and kicking to pull it off, and the defensive side to run with a McLeod. I also think Gwilt in his time in the role contributed more, and we've certainly got mroe defensive options.

I'm not convinced "all good teams have one", and even less convinced that at this stage Heyne could meaningfully fill the role. We're all hoping he eventually emerges into a Steve Johnson/Ryan O'Keefe type... but not yet.

So is Armo and Steven in your best 22 then ?
Would you bring one of them in for Heyne ?

Who comes in while Heyne goes out ?

To retain our structure and "leak" less goals - Ray may be better suited to rotating through the other half forward flank (there's 2 flanks after all) and alternating on that flank with BJ ? ..and creating mismatches as he like BJ is a good mark and will probably outmark his opponent that he happens to drag forward on occasion.

When you are a permanent forward - you usually get a permanent and better defender.
Will Ray do well against a specialist defender if he plays as a specialist forward?
Anyway ..
- I can't see why Heyne can't develop as the permanent half forward on the other flank... both things can happen.
i.e. playing Ray forward on occasion does not have to exclude Heyne .

Best 22 (as available today) I'd drop Heyne for Armo or Dempster (and push someone else forward). Steven I have in a similar boat to Heyne.

For the time being, we can carry Heyne if we think that's the best way to develop him quickly, but I wouldn't expect him to be in v either Freo or Geelong unless he steps up a lot.

The Farren Ray thing is just a thought - to flesh it out, I'd be playing him as a defensive option against their playmakers - McLeod this week, Newman next week. Get him to make them accountable going the other way, if they put a genuine defender on him, run him through the midfield.

I'm not excluding Heyne because I can't squeeze him in, I'm excluding him because I don't think he's ready yet, and can still develop further in the 2s.

[shmic_s]

Personally i'd be alternating Steven and Heyne in the forward line for the rest of the season. As long as they keep showing something and improving.

[samoht]

Armo got 10 possessions last game in the midfield and looked slow .. Heyne is playing in a more difficult position where you're unlikely to rack up possessions.

So I wouldn't be comparing them on the basis of possessions .. other than you should get twice as many as a midfielder.

Dempster ? .. I'm not really convinced with.

Hope Armo, Steven and Dempster do well, it's all up to them and Heyne really.

One thing that counted against Heyne is he hasn't kicked goals... but he's a very long kick and I can't help imagining a few long and dangerous inside 50's each game from him in the not too distant future hopefully.

I reckon Heyne can develop better and earlier under the watchful eye of RL .. he might actually be held back in the VFL .

Dropping Heyne is like dropping all hope of finding a permanent tallish medium sized forward - I don't want to do that and I don't think he's done that bad, in what is a difficult position.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Heyne in his two games has had some flashes. But lacked 4 quarters which is not surprising fora debatant.

The only problem is that that's been something that's been said about Nick for a few years now. That he regularly goes "missing" in games. Or that he just bobs up and plays 5 minutes of brilliant footy here and there and does pretty much nothing for the rest of the game. So that may be a habit he won't break any time soon.
The fact we have so little coming through may mean we keep him in for another game, but he'd want to produce some more, soon, or he won't be in there for long.
I'd rather they left out Mini and Zac and brought in Steven and Armo this week. If they were to make three changes, then Heyne would probably be the one to go, but for who? It doesn't say much for depth, unfortunately.

Only been on the list since the start of last year, or do you mean from junior ranks also?

For what its worth I wouldnt mind us perservering another week, thought mini was very average and fear he is close to being dropped. A real shame as I have been a mini fan since before he was delisted and re rookied and really thought he may develop into a late blooming inside mid.

I mean this is the reputation that he came to us with. He wasn't renowned for playing 4 consistent quarters, or maybe anything close to it. Apparently he'd just usually bob up in bursts, do a few brilliant things, then vanish for 20 mins.
May be why he got through to 40 odd in the draft, despite kicking up to 7 goals in under 18's games in his final year (presumably off the flank). He has most of the attributes you'd really want (good size/build, strong mark, raking kick, excellent speed), but maybe not the application, and/or endurance. Hopefully that will change, though, as he has some serious up-sides.
I'm not fussed if he plays seniors this week or not. Many drop off in their second games (which his was last week), so the chances are he'll do better this week, but on the other hand, if he goes back to Sandy it will help him realise he's got to perform, to keep his spot. That could make him much more hungry to do well for Sandy, to earn his senior spot back. And to cherish it, once he does. This may be especially useful for Nick.

[samoht]

I like Heyne's speed ... so before he's to be dropped shouldn't he at least be given a chance to play in the midfield where he will find a lot more of the ball (than you would at the half forward flank) - ahead of Armo ?

[bobmurray]

No need to change a winning team...

give the new guys a chance to get settled.....

[sainterinsydney]

I see no reason to change the team this week. The only possibility would be Steven for Mini, but even mini showed abit of form in the WC game. I think the team worked well as a group last week and there is no reason to change it.