Matchwinners

[plugger66]

And 3 for a ruckman is worth 4 or 5 but an extra 2 makes it worth 14. Well that is the most amazing thing i have ever read.

Do you think this game is better than this game?

Gardiner - 15 disposals, 3 goals 1, 6 marks, 0 tackles and 23 hitouts

is better than this one.....

Koschitzke - 18 disposals, 5 goals 2, 10 marks, 4 tackles and 18 hitouts

Kosi is capable of being a matchwinner. He's done it before. His game, with 5 goals from the ruck, in matchwinning terms is the equivalent of a forward kicking a huge bag.

Gardiners, was Ok. Pretty good. For a forward to play a pretty good game, I think would translate to a bag of 4 or 5 with his opponent playing a really good game aswell.


If you're suggesting it's an exact equation, then frankly you're either once again just trying to be a smarrt arrse, or you're simple.

I actually have no idea why you are showing me these stats. i am still laughing from your comment that 5 goals from a rckman is worth 14 for a FF but 3 goals from a ruckmam is worth 4 or 5 from a FF. Absolutely pissing myself.

[markp]

And 3 for a ruckman is worth 4 or 5 but an extra 2 makes it worth 14. Well that is the most amazing thing i have ever read.

Not really... the first goal is worth 1 goal, the second one is worth 2 (3), the 3rd on is worth another 2 (5), the 4th one is worth 4 (9), the 5th one is worth 5 (14), and so on. It's perfectly logical.

Just as Milne and BJ kicking 5 each against freo, added to the fact that they each had a goal assist, and goals being at more of a premium in games during the current 'defensive era', and if you also take into account their respective ages and usual playing positions, means that Milne actually kicked the equivalent of 9.2 goals and BJ 12.3 during that game.

Pretty simple stuff... though it'd be easier to explain with a graph.

I'm unsure why you are talking about Milne and Goddard kicking 5 the other week.

Are you supporting my argument that teams require matchwinners? Do you think everyone just playing their roles would have got us over the line in that match without matchwinning performances from individual players?

Imagine if one of them had have kicked 5 against Essendon or Port?

Imagine if five separate players had kicked a goal (or another goal) each against essendon.

Mind blowing, I know.

I'm working on a graph that explains how when we -as a team- kick more goals than our opponents (regardless of who actually kicks them), we usually win.

Just collecting the data and cutting out the crepe paper as we speak.

If 5 separate players players had kicked a goal against Freo, but we didn't have the matchwinning efforts of the two you keep mentioning - we'd have now lost 4 of the last 5.

You know there's a reason clubs give everything to get matchwinners to their club?

Good, ordinary players play roles well. They're good to have. You need them. But Premierships are won by teams with matchwinners.


In between your attempted sarcasm and below par humour, I'd like you to try to argue sensibly against that.

Good players help you win more.... amazing.

[markp]

If you'd bothered to read the thread, before embarrassingly responding in your usual patronising way - you'd notice that we still have 5 on the list.

5??? What can't you even follow your own OP?

You know the part where you stated...

Right now, I reckon we have 2 that are capable of this.

So it is 2, then 5....then????????????.

2 is the equivalent of 5 on every second Sunday.... try to keep up.

[rodgerfox]

If you'd bothered to read the thread, before embarrassingly responding in your usual patronising way - you'd notice that we still have 5 on the list.

5??? What can't you even follow your own OP?

You know the part where you stated...

Right now, I reckon we have 2 that are capable of this.

So it is 2, then 5....then????????????.

Sigh.

There are 5 players still on our list that were matchwinners (see the list on my opinion of this).

Only 2 of them right now, are capable of it.

This doesn't mean the others can't get it back. It means, right now they aren't capable of it.

There's two questions to this -

1) Why aren't guys like Dal and Kosi still able to be matchwinners? Has it been 'coached out of them'?

Neil Craig has the same question asked of him with the Crows. I asked the same question of Grant Thomas when I felt he was his coaching the flair out of Milne and X. Clarke.

Considering guys like Dal and Milne were dropped for not doing certain things, I think it's a completely fair and reasonable question to ask in the context of this thread.

[rodgerfox]

Good players help you win more.... amazing.

Maybe read the thread again.

We're not discussing good players. We're discussing 'matchwinners'. As previously stated, they're two very different things.

[saintsRrising]

Considering guys like Dal and Milne were dropped for not doing certain things, I think it's a completely fair and reasonable question to ask in the context of this thread.

Completely one dimensional players are a liability....unless they are a Lockett or a Judd.

[rodgerfox]

I think we found our matchwinner.

[plugger66]

I think we found our matchwinner.

Zac? He pept Lynch to one goal.

[markp]

I think we found our matchwinner.

Zac? He pept Lynch to one goal.

You'll find a few of them here...

http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... hp?t=61782

[rodgerfox]

I think we found our matchwinner.

Zac? He pept Lynch to one goal.

You'll find a few of them here...

http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... hp?t=61782

One dude stepped up when the game/season was on the line.

One dude turned that game on it's ear.


Everyone else followed his lead. That was matchwinners do. That's why they're so important.

That's what we've missed.

[SainterK]

Not to undersell Lenny, I expect that kind of effort from him every week...

Thought there were other telling things today, Raph backing with the flight of the ball, Dal and Schneider also lifting in intensity when the game was in the balance....

I also thought Goddards shot from outside 50 was particularly important in the context of the season, for so many reasons, and Milne's reaction summed it up.

[rodgerfox]

Welcome to the club Joey.

[Saintsfan]

Welcome to the club Joey.

Good call Grant.

We have a fair few I would like to think and I never considering Joey one. Before tonight I considered him a bit of a front runner however he did it all himself and kudos.

Great match and heres to a few more like that.

[saintsRrising]

Welcome to the club Joey.

You mean your "Lyon Coached him out of him club"???

I still think our matchwinners were out of form.....rather than being neutured by Lyon.

Kosi is still out form...and I do not believe that Lyon is the cause of him spilling his marks.

[Spinner]

MONTAGNA!!!!!!!!!

[markinUSA]

Wasn't Montagna a match winner last night?

[rodgerfox]

Welcome to the club Joey.

You mean your "Lyon Coached him out of him club"???

I still think our matchwinners were out of form.....rather than being neutured by Lyon.

Kosi is still out form...and I do not believe that Lyon is the cause of him spilling his marks.

??

Perhaps you need to read the thread before jumping in like that.


You're a bit all over the place.

[rodgerfox]

Wasn't Montagna a match winner last night?

Absolutely.

As per the OP - it's the second time in a fortnight that we haven't played that well and needed someone to step up and be a 'matchwinner'.

Up until now, we've relied on Roo for this and it's cost us a couple of tight games.


This is very important.

[plugger66]

Talking about match winners I am now convinced more than ever your bottom six win you matches against good sides. Your top 6 will get you over the lines against poor sides as shown in the last 2 weeks but I doubt we would have beaten good sides in the last 2 weeks because we have got bugger all out of our bottom 6. You cannot carry 4-6 players against good sides.

[rodgerfox]

Talking about match winners I am now convinced more than ever your bottom six win you matches against good sides. Your top 6 will get you over the lines against poor sides as shown in the last 2 weeks but I doubt we would have beaten good sides in the last 2 weeks because we have got bugger all out of our bottom 6. You cannot carry 4-6 players against good sides.

I think it depends on a few things.

[Saintsfan]

Talking about match winners I am now convinced more than ever your bottom six win you matches against good sides. Your top 6 will get you over the lines against poor sides as shown in the last 2 weeks but I doubt we would have beaten good sides in the last 2 weeks because we have got bugger all out of our bottom 6. You cannot carry 4-6 players against good sides.

I think it depends on a few things.

No it doesn't. Players weaknesses become amplified against good opposition re the Grand Final last year.

I don't think one can afford to carry anyone.

[plugger66]

Talking about match winners I am now convinced more than ever your bottom six win you matches against good sides. Your top 6 will get you over the lines against poor sides as shown in the last 2 weeks but I doubt we would have beaten good sides in the last 2 weeks because we have got bugger all out of our bottom 6. You cannot carry 4-6 players against good sides.

I think it depends on a few things.

I know stats arent everything but pretty much weekly we have 4-6 players with 10-12 stats or less, Geelong will have one or two. I think that is why they have just been fractionally better than us over the last 3 years. Our top players are as good as theres so what other reason could it be.

[rodgerfox]

No it doesn't. Players weaknesses become amplified against good opposition re the Grand Final last year.

I don't think one can afford to carry anyone.

There are hundreds (well, dozens) of dud premiership players.

It's a myth.

If your 'top 6' are playing very well and are spread over the ground - then they are what win you games - and flags.

If they play poorly, you will lose. Full stop.


Don't get me wrong, if your bottom 6 is good then it certainly makes things easier.
But it's funny how nad your bottom 6 look when your top 6 aren't firing or are out injured.

And it's amazing how they suddenly look good when your stars are getting 30 touches and kicking bags.

[rodgerfox]

Talking about match winners I am now convinced more than ever your bottom six win you matches against good sides. Your top 6 will get you over the lines against poor sides as shown in the last 2 weeks but I doubt we would have beaten good sides in the last 2 weeks because we have got bugger all out of our bottom 6. You cannot carry 4-6 players against good sides.

I think it depends on a few things.

I know stats arent everything but pretty much weekly we have 4-6 players with 10-12 stats or less, Geelong will have one or two. I think that is why they have just been fractionally better than us over the last 3 years. Our top players are as good as theres so what other reason could it be.

Sure, but....

Geelong's '1 or 2' would spread out to '5 or 6' is Ablett, Selwood, Chapman etc. weren't blitzing.


I think it all hinges on the stars.

[plugger66]

Talking about match winners I am now convinced more than ever your bottom six win you matches against good sides. Your top 6 will get you over the lines against poor sides as shown in the last 2 weeks but I doubt we would have beaten good sides in the last 2 weeks because we have got bugger all out of our bottom 6. You cannot carry 4-6 players against good sides.

I think it depends on a few things.

I know stats arent everything but pretty much weekly we have 4-6 players with 10-12 stats or less, Geelong will have one or two. I think that is why they have just been fractionally better than us over the last 3 years. Our top players are as good as theres so what other reason could it be.

Sure, but....

Geelong's '1 or 2' would spread out to '5 or 6' is Ablett, Selwood, Chapman etc. weren't blitzing.


I think it all hinges on the stars.

Why are Geelong better than us when our top 6 easily match theirs.