The 'Over Reliance on Roo' Thread

[st_Trav_ofWA]

COME ON !!
game plan built around ROO .....

did you watch last season at all ??
we had such a great season cause our game plan was relentless pressure ... the game plan was to tackle hard and chase hard to put pressure on the opp ball carrier and force them to make the mistake and rebound from that !!!

the reason we lost last night was cause we didnt do that we beat collingwood without Roo because we stuck to the game plan we then beat Freo sticking to the plan ... against port we started to drift from it and our work rate was slipping ... in the dogs game we lifted the pressure and our work rate but our foot skills let us down .... last night we didnt chase hard enough we didnt tackle hard enough our pressure was not even close to what it has been and our ball skills were more like under 14's level.....

had we played like that last night with a fully fit Roo we would of still lost the game .........

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

My retort is 'I dont think StKilda have set out to put all of their eggs in one basket' I think all supporters and coaching staff would agree that it would be nice to have more reliable ways to goal. However, we dont seem to, but I dont think this has been through lack of trying to develop such avenues.

What have we done, over the past 18 months to develop alternate ways to goal?

We haven't drafted forwards - bar Schneider. We haven't played Roo away from goal.
We have, when the games have been in the balance, reverted to the 'play Roo deep and kick it to him' tactic to win close games.


I haven't seen anything to suggest we've tried anything. If anything, I've felt for quite a while (and I've posted about this alot last year) that we've exacerbated the reliance on him - rather than try to reduce it.

I agree largely, although we did draft Tom Lynch with our first pick in the '08 Nat Draft. He ought to have a very good career as a "lead-up forward", barring anything unforseen/bad injury. We also drafted Heyne that day and were apparently going after Tommy Walsh for two years.
Having said that, one thing that I've been extremely disappointed with, especially last year, was our unwillingness to experiment, when we had games "in the bag". Everything would basically stay the same, until the final siren. And our guys would just go through the motions till that siren, like they had somewhere better to be.
These are the ideal times to experiment, so that when something like Roo going down happens, we actually have a "plan B", or someone who can fill that role with some confidence, immediately. (And it keeps our guys more invigorated, till the end of an otherwise "boring" match.)
James Hird wrote about this the other day, how, whenever Sheedy felt a game was in the bag, "the changes would come". And guys would be thrown around all over the place, to see if someone would do well in an area they may not have expected them to. And it meant that, if someone important to the structure missed a bunch of weeks, someone could step straight in and do the job well, because they'd had experience of that role, in AFL conditions.
We haven't done that and are paying for it now, in a fairly big way. Guys are being thrown it at the deep end, when they could have eased in, in much better conditions, when games were "all over". We only tend to change things up when we're in trouble and it's a last resort. No wonder it doesn't work regularly, when they're called on to do it for an extended period.

[bigcarl]

i've posted many times on our over realiance on riewoldt. it's been a hobby horse of mine for five or six years. i've stated in another thread what i think needs to happen while he is out.

how about some solutions rather than problems rodge?

[plugger66]

i've posted many times on our over realiance on riewoldt. it's been a hobby horse of mine for five or six years. i've stated in another thread what i think needs to happen while he is out.

how about some solutions rather than problems rodge?

Get him back to the wing whn he comes back then. That way we can use all the star forwards we have at the moment.

[bigcarl]

Get him back to the wing whn he comes back then. That way we can use all the star forwards we have at the moment.

wouldn't mind seeing some solutions from you, either plugger. i like you but you tend to put down others' posts rather than contribute anything positive.

that is a shame because i respect your opinion. i don't necessarily agree with it though and nor do i have to.

[Stephen Theodore]

Sadly, I feel your summary is about spot on Rodger. We look to be in a fair bit of trouble down forward.

On the positive side, next weeks a new game, and you'd hope a fair few of our better players (Dal, Montagna, Kosi, Gardener) wont play as bad as they did last night.

[plugger66]

Get him back to the wing whn he comes back then. That way we can use all the star forwards we have at the moment.

wouldn't mind seeing some solutions from you, either plugger. i like you but you tend to put down others' posts rather than contribute anything positive.

that is a shame because i respect your opinion. i don't necessarily agree with it though and nor do i have to.

There isnt much we can do with the forward line and even though Kosi is terrible at the moment the issue isnt the forward line. It is the mid field and the backs. We arent being allowed to move the ball as quickly as we were a few weeks a go and now players have lost a bit of confidence. people forget we beat Freo with a worse forward line than last night on paper. We beat them because we moved the ball quicly.

No changes are going to bring about any real change because there isnt much in the seconds. The problem at the moment is one for the coaches to fix.

[saintsRrising]

Well for "available solutions" this week:

Forward line

Milne, Kosi/ Stanley ( consider fit enough) Schneider
Peake Gilbert BJ


*Kosi to rotate through ruck to spell Gardiner. Stanley to rotate with Kosi at FF, with Stanley roaming on accssion.

* Zac is another option to rotate through FF.

* BJ to rotate between forward and midfield.
*Gram needs up to play as an outside mid, who runs forward. He seems to have re-aquired his ability to kick goals and he has the pace to run forward (too often he was forced to play back against the Blues due to our lack of options against the Blues smalls.)
* Joey too needs to push forward as well.

This structure injects more pace into the forward line as well as more marking options than the "solo"Kosi.
Need to omit one medium defender to do it.


* Armo back in to play midfield.....Steven and Raph the outs with King..maybe Geary (but probably need Geary for Essendon smalls).

Ben a possible in. though sandi form has not been steelar from all reports and in particular his ruck contest work.

Note:
Patto is likely to be suspended.
King out presumeably with a Hammy.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

Get him back to the wing whn he comes back then. That way we can use all the star forwards we have at the moment.

wouldn't mind seeing some solutions from you, either plugger. i like you but you tend to put down others' posts rather than contribute anything positive.

that is a shame because i respect your opinion. i don't necessarily agree with it though and nor do i have to.

There isnt much we can do with the forward line and even though Kosi is terrible at the moment the issue isnt the forward line. It is the mid field and the backs. We arent being allowed to move the ball as quickly as we were a few weeks a go and now players have lost a bit of confidence. people forget we beat Freo with a worse forward line than last night on paper. We beat them because we moved the ball quicly.

No changes are going to bring about any real change because there isnt much in the seconds. The problem at the moment is one for the coaches to fix.

spot on plugger !! the players are the same players...they have the same tallent... there is no magic answer playing at Sandy that is going to comee in and solve all the problems ... its all about the aplication of the players and at the moment they seem to be not with it .. maybe a good floggin on the training feild will work maybe a big group hug ... maybe a boonydoon pact is needed ... maybe some players just need a good kick in the arse ... what ever it is our players need to get their mind back onto doing the things that made us strong the pressure the tackling the never give up attitude !!

[rodgerfox]

My retort is 'I dont think StKilda have set out to put all of their eggs in one basket' I think all supporters and coaching staff would agree that it would be nice to have more reliable ways to goal. However, we dont seem to, but I dont think this has been through lack of trying to develop such avenues.

What have we done, over the past 18 months to develop alternate ways to goal?

We haven't drafted forwards - bar Schneider. We haven't played Roo away from goal.
We have, when the games have been in the balance, reverted to the 'play Roo deep and kick it to him' tactic to win close games.


I haven't seen anything to suggest we've tried anything. If anything, I've felt for quite a while (and I've posted about this alot last year) that we've exacerbated the reliance on him - rather than try to reduce it.

I'm sure I have heard of Kosi dropping marks before Roo was injured. I'm sure I have seen the coaching staff try Gwilt, McEvoy, Dal and a few others up in the forward line before Roo was injured. These things havent worked, but they have been tried. In retrospect the biggest mistake we made was not recruiting BBBH or Pods.

Again, the only question I asked in response was what do you think we should have done differently in the past couple of seasons?

Edit: Also I personally dont have a problem with the fact that we have used our best player to help us win the games in the past. I see that as a good thing, I guess its just a matter of opinion.

You can't be serious?

Simply putting other players up forward is the best we can come up with??

[plugger66]

My retort is 'I dont think StKilda have set out to put all of their eggs in one basket' I think all supporters and coaching staff would agree that it would be nice to have more reliable ways to goal. However, we dont seem to, but I dont think this has been through lack of trying to develop such avenues.

What have we done, over the past 18 months to develop alternate ways to goal?

We haven't drafted forwards - bar Schneider. We haven't played Roo away from goal.
We have, when the games have been in the balance, reverted to the 'play Roo deep and kick it to him' tactic to win close games.


I haven't seen anything to suggest we've tried anything. If anything, I've felt for quite a while (and I've posted about this alot last year) that we've exacerbated the reliance on him - rather than try to reduce it.

I'm sure I have heard of Kosi dropping marks before Roo was injured. I'm sure I have seen the coaching staff try Gwilt, McEvoy, Dal and a few others up in the forward line before Roo was injured. These things havent worked, but they have been tried. In retrospect the biggest mistake we made was not recruiting BBBH or Pods.

Again, the only question I asked in response was what do you think we should have done differently in the past couple of seasons?

Edit: Also I personally dont have a problem with the fact that we have used our best player to help us win the games in the past. I see that as a good thing, I guess its just a matter of opinion.

You can't be serious?

Simply putting other players up forward is the best we can come up with??

Still waiting for you to come up with something. Got anything at all RF?

[bob__71]

My retort is 'I dont think StKilda have set out to put all of their eggs in one basket' I think all supporters and coaching staff would agree that it would be nice to have more reliable ways to goal. However, we dont seem to, but I dont think this has been through lack of trying to develop such avenues.

What have we done, over the past 18 months to develop alternate ways to goal?

We haven't drafted forwards - bar Schneider. We haven't played Roo away from goal.
We have, when the games have been in the balance, reverted to the 'play Roo deep and kick it to him' tactic to win close games.


I haven't seen anything to suggest we've tried anything. If anything, I've felt for quite a while (and I've posted about this alot last year) that we've exacerbated the reliance on him - rather than try to reduce it.

I'm sure I have heard of Kosi dropping marks before Roo was injured. I'm sure I have seen the coaching staff try Gwilt, McEvoy, Dal and a few others up in the forward line before Roo was injured. These things havent worked, but they have been tried. In retrospect the biggest mistake we made was not recruiting BBBH or Pods.

Again, the only question I asked in response was what do you think we should have done differently in the past couple of seasons?

Edit: Also I personally dont have a problem with the fact that we have used our best player to help us win the games in the past. I see that as a good thing, I guess its just a matter of opinion.

You can't be serious?

Simply putting other players up forward is the best we can come up with??

Again Rodger I dont understand. Why wouldnt I be serious? Is there some better way to find out who can stand up to the rigours of being a AFL forward?

I would guess that they train for the position, have meetings about it etc, not just "simply be thrown there".

I guess I can ask the question again about what you would do differently, but you dont seem to want to answer that.

[markp]

I'm not only concerned about our over reliance on our very best player (or best players) to win... but players full stop.

As we saw last night, even if they take to the field and have a bad night, we lose... I think we need to develop a game plan that will address this, and which will ideally allow us to be competitive with no players on the ground at all.

[bob__71]

I'm not only concerned about our over reliance on our very best player (or best players) to win... but players full stop.

As we saw last night, even if they take to the field and a bad night, we lose... I think we need to develop a game plan that will address this, and which will ideally allow us to be competitive with no players on the ground at all.

Pleasing

[plugger66]

RF why do you go and hide if you actually have to contribute to a thread. The only thing you seem to do is ask questions. Well we want some answers from you.

[saintsRrising]

I guess I can ask the question again about what you would do differently, but you dont seem to want to answer that.

Pot , kettle black or what?????

[Winmar7Fan]

The way I see it our B grade list is slowly growing and when the side is struggling overall for the loss of Roo or whatever it shows and they get found out and turn into pumpkins.

It's all rosy with a full strength team and everyone's super full of confidence. No one thinks or cares when we keep winning if Kosi didn't get a touch or Raph and Dawson struggled and turned it over half a dozen times and McQualter, Geary and Armitage had barely a fair game in a good team.

But what happens to these guys when Roo gets Injured, Dal gets tagged out, Montagna has a bit of a slump, Fisher's getting a bit tired and age is starting to creep up on a few of the others like Hayes, Baker, King and Gardiner?

I think we could be seeing the answer. The bottom 10 look very ordinary.

[goods]

[quote="rodgerfox"]Can we now say that we've rolled the dice over the past 18 months by building a game plan around one guy?[quote]

We built a game plan around defence, Nick plays in the other half of he ground. Our defence came unstuck last night...we will work it out

[na exa]

why is everyone so scared of change ?

fair dink.

claim that we are 'leading the way' as a near religious experience of the truly blessed , or the worlds best coach ... but no willingness to think outside the square.

ff'd if i know.

[rodgerfox]

People seem to think footy is played the way it was 15 years ago.

You don't just put a guy at FF and let him play it the way he sees fit.


You have a team of forwards, each playing a role. they need to link in woth the mids and even the defence.

Putting Gwilt at FF isn't a fix.

Rotating anyone through FF isn't a fix.


Sadly, our forward structure wasn't successful because of the structure or the setup - it was successful because Roo was there.

You can't just put someone else there in his absence, and it expect it to work just as it did.
I'm worried that our coaches started to believe the hype about our perfect 'structures' and game plan, and thought it was a case of someone just stepping into Roo's role.

They need to adjust the whole setup. The 'Roo and Kosi' won't work without Roo.
The 'talls get it down to the smalls' thing won't work without Roo either.

We built so much around one guy, that on GF day, and now we find ourselves in the shiit.

The good news is though, that albeit late we are trying new things. That's why we look like the 2007 model.

Hopefully it clicks (whatever 'it' is) soon.

[plugger66]

People seem to think footy is played the way it was 15 years ago.

You don't just put a guy at FF and let him play it the way he sees fit.


You have a team of forwards, each playing a role. they need to link in woth the mids and even the defence.

Putting Gwilt at FF isn't a fix.

Rotating anyone through FF isn't a fix.


Sadly, our forward structure wasn't successful because of the structure or the setup - it was successful because Roo was there.

You can't just put someone else there in his absence, and it expect it to work just as it did.
I'm worried that our coaches started to believe the hype about our perfect 'structures' and game plan, and thought it was a case of someone just stepping into Roo's role.

They need to adjust the whole setup. The 'Roo and Kosi' won't work without Roo.
The 'talls get it down to the smalls' thing won't work without Roo either.

We built so much around one guy, that on GF day, and now we find ourselves in the shiit.

The good news is though, that albeit late we are trying new things. That's why we look like the 2007 model.

Hopefully it clicks (whatever 'it' is) soon.

Again you like saying things that dont work. This is forum for discussion so how about you give us a set up you think might work.

[SainterK]

People seem to think footy is played the way it was 15 years ago.

You don't just put a guy at FF and let him play it the way he sees fit.


You have a team of forwards, each playing a role. they need to link in woth the mids and even the defence.

Putting Gwilt at FF isn't a fix.

Rotating anyone through FF isn't a fix.


Sadly, our forward structure wasn't successful because of the structure or the setup - it was successful because Roo was there.

You can't just put someone else there in his absence, and it expect it to work just as it did.
I'm worried that our coaches started to believe the hype about our perfect 'structures' and game plan, and thought it was a case of someone just stepping into Roo's role.

They need to adjust the whole setup. The 'Roo and Kosi' won't work without Roo.
The 'talls get it down to the smalls' thing won't work without Roo either.

We built so much around one guy, that on GF day, and now we find ourselves in the shiit.

The good news is though, that albeit late we are trying new things. That's why we look like the 2007 model.

Hopefully it clicks (whatever 'it' is) soon.

Well something worked against Freo, without Roo or Kosi, and they were willing and capable opposition.....

[rodgerfox]

Again you like saying things that dont work. This is forum for discussion so how about you give us a set up you think might work.

If I don't happen to have the answer to the club's problems, does make any criticism null and void does it?

[rodgerfox]

Well something worked against Freo, without Roo or Kosi, and they were willing and capable opposition.....

Interesting point actually. No talls = good scoring.

[Saintsfan]

Riewoldt offers an outlet for players kicking out long or with purpose out of our defensive 50 and with this goes a method of clearing from danger, keeping possession and setting up an attack.

Currently we do not have another option that can lead from the attacking 50 way up the ground and accept a pass from our defensive 50 whether it be long or short.

We do rely on Riewoldt and that is the nature of the beast. 'They' aren't called superstars or franchise players for nothing. Teams get built around them and rightly so. They do the most with the ball in their hands.

What pleases me is that we have a decent month coming up where worst case scenario we should be 8-3, best case 9-2 due to the teams we play. This hopefully gives us an opportunity to figure out not just a way to kick more goals but also find meaningful avenues to attack. I noticed we were close to Carlton's inside 50 count last night however our percentage of useful or meaningful entries would have been much less, both on our average and against Carlton in the match alone.