Morning after - still not worried

[meher baba]

We lost. We fell to pieces a bit in the last quarter.

Big deal, we'll be back, possibly as soon as Sunday.

We are a team of some stars sprinkled among a bunch of seasoned fair-average quality players and a few young fair-average quality players. We rely heavily on having a robust, defensively-based game plan and a strong discipline around that game plan.

Our game plan revolves around locking down the central corridor and making it difficult for our opponents to get out of their own half.

A team which runs and runs and takes a lot of successful risks can overcome this tactic. The Bombers beat us once last year playing this way and almost beat us in our first game against them.

The point is that, in 9 games out of 10, the team trying this tactic will end up giving away turnovers and getting hurt on the scoreboard. Then they come under pressure, and the whole complexion of the game changes.

Even last night, Geary and Sam Fisher missed opportunities in the first quarter that would have made it a different game if they'd taken them. Also, the matchups of Gilbert and then Raph on Waite failed spectacularly. If we had our time again and had started with Blake on Waite (and we had no way of knowing before the game that this would be the better option), then it all would have been quite different.

We've still got the list to take us to the top 4 and, if Riewoldt makes a successful comeback, on to a flag. One loss, albeit a rather embarassing one, doesn't change that basic fact.

All the silly posts on here that suggest we should rush the likes of Stanley, Walsh, Gaertner, J Smith et al into our team are just plain silly.

If I were Ross Lyon, I would only taka few messages out of last night's game.

1) Armitage, although he isn't anywhere as good as we'd like all him to be, needs to be in the team as the "Ball replacement": Steven, on last night's display, is an outside player.

2) Gwilt, Gilbert, Raph and Sam Fisher running around down back all trying to become loose men is at least one too many. We'd be better off dropping one of them (Raph is the most deserving ATM) and bringing in another midfield runner like Eddy.

3) Lyon needs to teach himself not to panic so much when we get behind. I have seen him now on a number of occassions being inclined to throw the game plan out the window when it didn't seem to be working: it is possible that this is what was behind Ball's limited appearances in the GF after half time.

Lyon was at it again last night: at one stage I was thinking "which player am I going to see next pop up in the most unlikely/unsuitable role"? We saw jsut about everything tried save Gardiner and King trying to play as in-and-under mids. It would have been better for team morale to stick to our game plan throughout and keep trying to put the pressure on and see how close we could finish up on the scoreboard.

Lyon needs to learn that our standard game plan is as likely to produce as many scoring chances for us over the course of a game as suddenly trying to play loose.

IMO, anyway.

[3rd generation saint]

My worry MB is 22 goals in 3 games, the worst in the AFL, we need to kick goals, and apply scoreboard pressure.
I think we need to look at blooding a young player, whether it be Stanley, Lynch or Heyne, or even bring back Peake for some pace.
If we don't fix our forward line, we wont win enough games to make top 4 to give Roo a chance to lead us to a flag.
I'll panic next Sunday should Essendon beat us.
I know we can beat them, but I'm not as confident as I was a few weeks ago of this.

[na exa]

was the jones boy on murphy instead of judd a move that would be repeated in hindsight ?

[philtee]

I'm with you MB.
Essendon will be a real test with their running game. Last year they beat us in that little honeymoon period before the finals, when the Saints might not have had their minds on the job. BUT - next Sunday the Saints will be fully focused. I mean, surely we can't let Jobe Watson be BOG again !

[borderbarry]

We do have to make some changes for next week though. King has done a Hammy, and we have four small forwards, all very well, but ours are slow. Armitage should not have been out of the team, (unless he is injured, but with our Injured List how would you know?) We need to increase our speed against Essendon, but apart from Peake,who do we have?

[philtee]

And another thing -
Quick listing of "marks for" and "marks against" so far this season -

1. v Sydney 81 - 73
2. v NMFC 142 - 90
3. v Coll 130 - 73
4. v Freo 107 - 95
5. v Port 89 - 108
6. v Dogs 90 - 147
7. v Carl 77 - 136

Granted, a lot of these are junk marks from the chip-around game style.
But as a general indicator of team activity they show a strong decline in
the Saints overall output, both in what we're doing, and what we're letting
the opposition get away with. The discrepancy last night 77 - 136 is plain awful.

[Face]

Last night was very 2008.

That's a big concern.

[jonesy]

I'm worried...very worried.

The only positive about this situation is we are 5-2...if you're going to have these problems we're well placed to have them now. If we can sort it out we have enough wins on the board to keep the season on track. Just whether we can sort it out...

[saint66au]

My worry MB is 22 goals in 3 games, the worst in the AFL, we need to kick goals, and apply scoreboard pressure.
I think we need to look at blooding a young player, whether it be Stanley, Lynch or Heyne, or even bring back Peake for some pace.
If we don't fix our forward line, we wont win enough games to make top 4 to give Roo a chance to lead us to a flag.
I'll panic next Sunday should Essendon beat us.
I know we can beat them, but I'm not as confident as I was a few weeks ago of this.

Agree 100%..time and again we went forward with no purpose or structure. Bombing the ball over Milnes head and hoping he can run onto it, beat his opponent and snag a goal will get you scores of 9.14 in a game, not 20.9.

I reckon Carlton knew they really only had to kick 12 goals tops to beat us, and went about getting thos as quickly as possible

[na exa]

re marks against ... they were ready and waiting for us to switch across the backline ... it was like they zoned us , then intercepted via the mark or spoil...ran us down as we 'looked' for the next kick forward and eddie waiting for 'the playon' tackles from behind .. they played a smart game.

[bigred]

Intensity was crap.

Seriously weak as pyss.

Our tackle rate was well down on 2010 levels, which are well down on 2009 levels.

Not good enough. Lenny was the only bloke putting it on the line.

We have two ways to respond to this. Come out and give Essendon a fkn physical hiding.

Or just walk off into the night.

If you have to lose, then go down fighting for **** sake. Saints footy? That wasnt saints footy as far as I am concerned.

[Buckets]

Intensity was crap.

Seriously weak as pyss.

Our tackle rate was well down on 2010 levels, which are well down on 2009 levels.

Not good enough. Lenny was the only bloke putting it on the line.

We have two ways to respond to this. Come out and give Essendon a fkn physical hiding.

Or just walk off into the night.

If you have to lose, then go down fighting for **** sake. Saints footy? That wasnt saints footy as far as I am concerned.

+1

[St. Luke]

Intensity was crap.

Seriously weak as pyss.

Our tackle rate was well down on 2010 levels, which are well down on 2009 levels.

Not good enough. Lenny was the only bloke putting it on the line.

We have two ways to respond to this. Come out and give Essendon a fkn physical hiding.

Or just walk off into the night.

If you have to lose, then go down fighting for **** sake. Saints footy? That wasnt saints footy as far as I am concerned.

+2

[ralphsmith]

I wonder how Robert Harvey felt sitting there helping to orchestrate the destruction of the team he once bled for. I wondered that last night.

Back on topic...

Not sure where the spark will come from this week so the players find their groove again. Essendon are another quick, fast side who expose our weakness.

[Saint Bev]

Well I am VERY concerned. Yes they beat Geelong 2 wks ago, by 36 points. We got smashed in every area of the ground and its been many years since we have been beaten by that much, this was no ordinary loss. Our back line that has been our strength for many year, was hammered last night. We can't kick goals, a problem we have had for a long time and a major weakness of ours. Good teams do not get beaten by that much. We have a number of players that have been "treading water" this year and if they don't lift its time to give someone else a go. How many opportunities do you get. Our percentage took a hounding last night. I know many think it doesn't matter, but it does, it sets you up for the finals and dictates where you play, we want that ball in our court not someone elses.

Lenny Hayes, you are awesome, but he can't do it on his own.

We need to make a statement against Essendon next week. If we can't, we are in trouble.

[Saint Bev]

I wonder how Robert Harvey felt sitting there helping to orchestrate the destruction of the team he once bled for. I wondered that last night.

Back on topic...

Not sure where the spark will come from this week so the players find their groove again. Essendon are another quick, fast side who expose our weakness.

Go to admit it made me angry watching him sitting there with them last night.

[fingers]

Intensity was crap.

Seriously weak as pyss.

Our tackle rate was well down on 2010 levels, which are well down on 2009 levels.

Not good enough. Lenny was the only bloke putting it on the line.

We have two ways to respond to this. Come out and give Essendon a fkn physical hiding.

Or just walk off into the night.

If you have to lose, then go down fighting for **** sake. Saints footy? That wasnt saints footy as far as I am concerned.

This is the issue. Intensity and effort was so far off last night any team would have beaten us. This is something that can be fixed quickly. And I trust will be.

[aussiejones]

Essendon have some quick smalls......next week is a worry.

Other than that ..the wheels havnt fallen off.

Still only round 8

[saintsRrising]

Generally agree with your OP MB.

Discipline is very important to the Saints to win games, and that was 100% absent this week.

Gwilt IMO has gone past Raph, and given the match ups was one too many mid-sized defenders and more so against the fleet foooted Blues.

Essendon, even with injuries have a lot pace too and so selection needs to keep this in mind.

Agree that Lyon coached poorly this game. Though don't agree that he always does this we get behind and panics, as the Saints actulaly have a very good record in strong finishes in recent times.

I thought Armo was very stiff to miss out, and hindsight would suggest that we missed his in and under ballwork.

Peake I thought should not have been dropped. However his Sandi form according to some since has not been too flash. however I think we structure upa lot better with his pace across Wing/HF. Against very quick teams this would be moreso I believe.

Geary does a lot of good work, but his kicking skills have deserted him at present and he is butchering the ball. His passing is ordinary and two gettable shots on goal went astray.

[Saintsfan]

I wonder how Robert Harvey felt sitting there helping to orchestrate the destruction of the team he once bled for. I wondered that last night.

Back on topic...

Not sure where the spark will come from this week so the players find their groove again. Essendon are another quick, fast side who expose our weakness.

Go to admit it made me angry watching him sitting there with them last night.

Who cares about Harvey. Once he crossed over to the Blues he became an opponent and to me he is just another one of them.

It is interesting where we are at currently. We are not playing well at all. Our ladder position is irrelevant as things could change very quickly i.e go up or go down.

I have faith we will recover and be fine however being a St.Kilda supporter comes the doubt of the inevitable implosion....

[meher baba]

Yes, sRr, Geary has been a bit disappointing too. I would send him to the VFL next week along with Steven and Raph or Dawson: my INS being Armo, Eddy and Heyne (would prefer Lynch, but am assuming he's still injured).

[fingers]

Yes, sRr, Geary has been a bit disappointing too. I would send him to the VFL next week along with Steven and Raph or Dawson: my INS being Armo, Eddy and Heyne (would prefer Lynch, but am assuming he's still injured).

Interesting - I thought Geary was quite good last night. One of the few that had a crack.

[SENsei]

I wonder how Robert Harvey felt sitting there helping to orchestrate the destruction of the team he once bled for. I wondered that last night.

Back on topic...

Not sure where the spark will come from this week so the players find their groove again. Essendon are another quick, fast side who expose our weakness.

Go to admit it made me angry watching him sitting there with them last night.

No different to Silvagni in our box.

I've been in that position myself (plotting against old team)....your head is always on the job. Your heart is never compromised.

But it's his job now. He's a Carlton person.

[joffaboy]

Yes, sRr, Geary has been a bit disappointing too. I would send him to the VFL next week along with Steven and Raph or Dawson: my INS being Armo, Eddy and Heyne (would prefer Lynch, but am assuming he's still injured).

Why Heyne?

Have you seen anything of him?

Eddy yes, but Heyne?

Would actually prefer Tommy Walsh.

[spert]

Look, we took Carlton too lightly last night, I expect RL won't let it happen against Essendon. Some players are out of form and that's why the intensity has dropped away this season. RL should send the message out at the selection table this week.