Ross Lyon needs to go NOW !!!

[Dr Spaceman]

No, no, no - that's not my opinion.

I was just mindlessly searching through Facebook and came across a Group named Ross Lyon needs to go NOW !!!

Take a look at the Group's description:

"St Kilda coach Ross Lyon has had 18 months and has not only managed to make the Saints into a laughing stock but has also kept James Gwilt in the side. I never thought I'd say it but is this guy worse than Tim Watson????"

Needless to say the Group (12 members) has no recent posts displayed.

HOW EMBARRASSING!!!!!!!!!

[saintsRrising]

Will be a Nexus site.

[Griggsy]

Theres a few if you seach ross lyon in the groups area, none have over 20. And one says he should be the socceroos coach (not in a good way)

No Pro support ones. Should I start a group called "In Ross We Trust" Would get more members than these.

[bobmurray]

See if you can find a group that calls itself ..how to build an AFL forward line by Ross Lyon...i'd love to know his thoughts....

[saint66au]

No names, but that group was started by an occasional poster on this site

[SainterK]

Jimmy? How random...

[Milan Faletic]

Pathetic excuse for a facebook page.

[saintsRrising]

No, no, no - that's not my opinion.

I was just mindlessly searching through Facebook and came across a Group named Ross Lyon needs to go NOW !!!

I think this will have been the same person:

http://www.afltalk.com.au/why-stkilda-s ... ross-lyon/


Why St.Kilda Should Sack Ross Lyon
June 10th 2008 12:54
If St.Kilda finishes outside the top eight this season - which is a near certainty - they must sack Ross Lyon. The reasons are as follows:

1. St.Kilda is the least enjoyable team to watch in the competition. They used to be fun.

2. Lyon is correct. His side is soft. However it is the coach's role to instil toughness in his side. Has a side coached by Leigh Matthews or Mick Malthouse ever been soft? Softness starts at the top.

3. St.Kilda has not won a match away from Telstra Dome since round twelve last season. In the past two seasons they have won only two matches away from the Dome. Any time they are asked to play interstate or at the MCG, they fail to cope with the elements. Why is this the case? The buck must stop with the coach.


4. Rather than developing young talent, Lyon has traded for recycled players: Charlie Gardiner, Steven King, Shaun Dempster, Adam Schneider and Michael Gardiner. Out of the these players only Adam Schneider has any chance of being at the club in two years time. At times this season almost half of St.Kilda's team has consisted of recycled players. Lyon regularly selects the likes of Fiora, Birss, Dempster and Charlie Gardiner. There is a reason that each of these players has not made it at their previous club. Lyon has shown no confidence in his younger players. As a direct result, his younger players play without confidence.

5. Lyon has tried to turn St.Kilda into Sydney. He initially adopted three captains, topped up the list up with rejects from other clubs and forced an overtly defensive style of play upon his team (otherwise known as 'tempo football'). In adopting such an approach, Lyon did not acknowledge the strengths of the list that he inherited. From 2003-2006 St. Kilda played a fast and attacking brand of football that catered for the team's strengths. The list is not, nor has it ever been, suited to playing 'tempo football'. Lyon has defended his brand of football by stating that it is a style that will hold up in finals matches. This may be true. The only problem is that his team has not been good enough to play in finals.


6. St.Kilda players spend the majority of their time at centre bounces pointing to each other. Confusion reigns every week (which is personified the most by the performances, or lack there of, of Raphael Clarke). No other team in the competition does this. A good coach would run a well-drilled team. At every centre bounce every player should know his role and his opponent. These are the bare essentials. As it stands, most St.Kilda players spend their game day's enacting the duties of a traffic policeman. It is reminiscent of the Tim Watson era.

7. Aside from Sam Gilbert and Leigh Montagna, no St.Kilda player has improved under Ross Lyon.

8. Many of St.Kilda's good players have regressed under Ross Lyon: Dal Santo, Koschitzke, Riewoldt, MaGuire, X.Clarke, Gram. This is no coincidence. Clearly the team is not encouraged to play to the strengths of their good players. While the players must take some responsiblity, they are evidently not challenged (or inspired) by their coach to reach new heights. Although Grant Thomas was somewhat of a dictator, at least he had the players on side. There is no evidence that Lyon has the players on side. When North Melbourne beat the Bulldogs two weeks ago the players surrounded Dean Laidley and smothered him with hugs. Have the St.Kidla players ever demonstrated such aafection for their coach?

9. There is a perception in the wider football community that Ross Lyon inherited a list that was on the decline. This is not the case. Lyon turned the team into the rabble that it now is. Prior to his tenure, the same group of players played a good brand of football and made the finals in three consecutive seasons. Lyon's list management and tactical misgivings have caused this decline. St.Kilda still has the following good players: Riewoldt, Hayes, Ball, Goddard, Koschitzke, Dal Santo, Montagna, Sam Fisher, Gram, Harvey, Hudghton. To add to this Lyon has middle range players such as Schneider, Baker, Gilbert and Michael Gardiner at his disposal. This ought to represent the core of a very good team.

10. Lyon said that opposition teams knew that there were certain soft individuals in his side. This was a thinly-veiled swipe at Aaron Fiora. However it is Lyon who continues to select Fiora. When the Saints played Brisbane he opted to play Fiora ahead of David Armitage - a second year player who is already one of the toughest tacklers at the club. Armitage had kicked five goals in his previous four senior matches and was developing steadily. To make matters worse Armitage was raised in Queensland and the match would have given his parents an opportunity to see him play. Instead Lyon dropped Armitage for Fiora. It is beyond belief.

11. Robert Walls was responsible for appointing Ross Lyon. Although Walls was once a premiership coach, his views on the game are outdated. Walls is a Carlton man, through and through. He has no regard for the plight of the St.Kilda Football Club.

12. The current St.Kilda board did not appoint Ross Lyon. Therefore his failure need not be viewed as their failure.

13. If Lyon is sacked the situation may be salvaged. If the final year of his contract is honoured, he will obliterate the club's playing stocks. Considering the imminent introduction of two new teams - and the draft picks that will accompany them - this will mean that St.Kilda will not be in contention until 2020. The likes of Dal Santo, Ball, Montagna, Clarke, Gram, Sam Fisher, Riewoldt and Koschitke are the perfect age for a tilt at success. They just need someone to inspire them.

14. Lyon's demeanour at press conferences is akin to that of a robot. To be frank, he is a poor man's Paul Roos. He shows little emotion and frequently resorts to using buzz-words such as 'tempo football', 'scoreboard pressure' and 'subjective opinion' when assessing his team's performances. These words amount to nothing. He treats the team's supporters as if they are idiots. St.Kilda supporters deserve more than this.

15. Disregarding all previous reasons: ROSS LYON DOES NOT BLEED FOR ST.KILDA.

[Con Gorozidis]

clearly comedy

[meher baba]

Some of it was a pretty accurate description of how things seemed in mid 2008. Some was even harsher than I was at the time. Lyon has proven me and others wrong big time. Good for him (and us).

Don't they ever take old Facebook sites down?

[saintsRrising]

Some of it was a pretty accurate description of how things seemed in mid 2008. Some was even harsher than I was at the time. Lyon has proven me and others wrong big time. Good for him (and us).

Don't they ever take old Facebook sites down?

I think your old posts are there for posterity...

[meher baba]

Some of it was a pretty accurate description of how things seemed in mid 2008. Some was even harsher than I was at the time. Lyon has proven me and others wrong big time. Good for him (and us).

Don't they ever take old Facebook sites down?

I think your old posts are there for posterity...

If anyone is interested.

I stand by what I said at the time: we played like crap for the first half of 2008 and Ross was absolutely pitiful in trying to justify/explain it at post-match press conferences. It looked for all the world like we were on the way down to the bottom of the table.

The true story about how Lyon/the players/the club turned it around so quickly will be written one day. I'll be an interested reader.

[rodgerfox]

Some of it was a pretty accurate description of how things seemed in mid 2008. Some was even harsher than I was at the time. Lyon has proven me and others wrong big time. Good for him (and us).

Don't they ever take old Facebook sites down?

I think your old posts are there for posterity...

If anyone is interested.

I stand by what I said at the time: we played like crap for the first half of 2008 and Ross was absolutely pitiful in trying to justify/explain it at post-match press conferences. It looked for all the world like we were on the way down to the bottom of the table.

The true story about how Lyon/the players/the club turned it around so quickly will be written one day. I'll be an interested reader.

Although I never wanted Lyon sacked, he clearly was struggling early on.

It wasn't until the board stepped in that things were pointed in the right direction.


Which makes me a chuckle a bit when people talk themselves as having 'known from day 1 he was god'.

Reality was, he wasn't. Lots of changes had to be made and lots of help was required before results started to show.

Having said all that, let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. This is his 4th year at the club and we still don't have any silverwear to show for it.

[Stillwaiting]

Some of it was a pretty accurate description of how things seemed in mid 2008. Some was even harsher than I was at the time. Lyon has proven me and others wrong big time. Good for him (and us).

Don't they ever take old Facebook sites down?

I think your old posts are there for posterity...

If anyone is interested.

I stand by what I said at the time: we played like crap for the first half of 2008 and Ross was absolutely pitiful in trying to justify/explain it at post-match press conferences. It looked for all the world like we were on the way down to the bottom of the table.

The true story about how Lyon/the players/the club turned it around so quickly will be written one day. I'll be an interested reader.

Although I never wanted Lyon sacked, he clearly was struggling early on.

It wasn't until the board stepped in that things were pointed in the right direction.


Which makes me a chuckle a bit when people talk themselves as having 'known from day 1 he was god'.

Reality was, he wasn't. Lots of changes had to be made and lots of help was required before results started to show.

Having said all that, let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. This is his 4th year at the club and we still don't have any silverwear to show for it.

I have to admit the in mis 2008 I had enough of ugly play and basicaly loosing. While I was happy enough for him to be appointed coach I did not know enough to say yeah or nay. But by this time I was fed up, but I didnt really want another change of coach., but I saw no alternative

How wrong was I

[Solar]

Some of it was a pretty accurate description of how things seemed in mid 2008. Some was even harsher than I was at the time. Lyon has proven me and others wrong big time. Good for him (and us).

Don't they ever take old Facebook sites down?

I think your old posts are there for posterity...

If anyone is interested.

I stand by what I said at the time: we played like crap for the first half of 2008 and Ross was absolutely pitiful in trying to justify/explain it at post-match press conferences. It looked for all the world like we were on the way down to the bottom of the table.

The true story about how Lyon/the players/the club turned it around so quickly will be written one day. I'll be an interested reader.

Although I never wanted Lyon sacked, he clearly was struggling early on.

It wasn't until the board stepped in that things were pointed in the right direction.


Which makes me a chuckle a bit when people talk themselves as having 'known from day 1 he was god'.

Reality was, he wasn't. Lots of changes had to be made and lots of help was required before results started to show.

Having said all that, let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. This is his 4th year at the club and we still don't have any silverwear to show for it.

I have to admit the in mis 2008 I had enough of ugly play and basicaly loosing. While I was happy enough for him to be appointed coach I did not know enough to say yeah or nay. But by this time I was fed up, but I didnt really want another change of coach., but I saw no alternative

How wrong was I

agree also, I wanted a new coach during that period and I am very happy to be wrong. I did not know where we were heading after losing the prelim to the hawks in 2008

[saintlee]

Some of it was a pretty accurate description of how things seemed in mid 2008. Some was even harsher than I was at the time. Lyon has proven me and others wrong big time. Good for him (and us).

Don't they ever take old Facebook sites down?

I think your old posts are there for posterity...

If anyone is interested.

I stand by what I said at the time: we played like crap for the first half of 2008 and Ross was absolutely pitiful in trying to justify/explain it at post-match press conferences. It looked for all the world like we were on the way down to the bottom of the table.

The true story about how Lyon/the players/the club turned it around so quickly will be written one day. I'll be an interested reader.

Although I never wanted Lyon sacked, he clearly was struggling early on.

It wasn't until the board stepped in that things were pointed in the right direction.


Which makes me a chuckle a bit when people talk themselves as having 'known from day 1 he was god'.

Reality was, he wasn't. Lots of changes had to be made and lots of help was required before results started to show.

Having said all that, let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. This is his 4th year at the club and we still don't have any silverwear to show for it.

We have the 2008 Preseason cup...thats considered silverwear....albiet of low importance

[Stillwaiting]

Some of it was a pretty accurate description of how things seemed in mid 2008. Some was even harsher than I was at the time. Lyon has proven me and others wrong big time. Good for him (and us).

Don't they ever take old Facebook sites down?

I think your old posts are there for posterity...

If anyone is interested.

I stand by what I said at the time: we played like crap for the first half of 2008 and Ross was absolutely pitiful in trying to justify/explain it at post-match press conferences. It looked for all the world like we were on the way down to the bottom of the table.

The true story about how Lyon/the players/the club turned it around so quickly will be written one day. I'll be an interested reader.

Although I never wanted Lyon sacked, he clearly was struggling early on.

It wasn't until the board stepped in that things were pointed in the right direction.


Which makes me a chuckle a bit when people talk themselves as having 'known from day 1 he was god'.

Reality was, he wasn't. Lots of changes had to be made and lots of help was required before results started to show.

Having said all that, let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. This is his 4th year at the club and we still don't have any silverwear to show for it.

I have to admit the in mis 2008 I had enough of ugly play and basicaly loosing. While I was happy enough for him to be appointed coach I did not know enough to say yeah or nay. But by this time I was fed up, but I didnt really want another change of coach., but I saw no alternative

How wrong was I

agree also, I wanted a new coach during that period and I am very happy to be wrong. I did not know where we were heading after losing the prelim to the hawks in 2008

The only reason I wanted rl to stay was that we had sacked gt 12 monthe earlier (was not upset about that) but we needed stabilty.

Now we have that

[st_Trav_ofWA]

Which makes me a chuckle a bit when people talk themselves as having 'known from day 1 he was god'.

Reality was, he wasn't. Lots of changes had to be made and lots of help was required before results started to show.

Having said all that, let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. This is his 4th year at the club and we still don't have any silverwear to show for it.

RF you can chuckle all you want but i knew RL was going to be good for us from day 1 ... Ross was never struggleing it was always going to take time for his ideas to work ... it took a while to weed out the dead wood from the GT era and also to change the mindset of the playing group

under GT it was attack attack attack and hope that we kick more goals then the other teams did .. and to a point that worked well except when it mattered against quallity teams under GT we looked awsome when it worked but when it didnt he had no answer we had no counter no plan b .. thats what RL was drilling into the team in the first 2 years the whole plan B

[rodgerfox]

Which makes me a chuckle a bit when people talk themselves as having 'known from day 1 he was god'.

Reality was, he wasn't. Lots of changes had to be made and lots of help was required before results started to show.

Having said all that, let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. This is his 4th year at the club and we still don't have any silverwear to show for it.

RF you can chuckle all you want but i knew RL was going to be good for us from day 1 ... Ross was never struggleing it was always going to take time for his ideas to work ... it took a while to weed out the dead wood from the GT era and also to change the mindset of the playing group

under GT it was attack attack attack and hope that we kick more goals then the other teams did .. and to a point that worked well except when it mattered against quallity teams under GT we looked awsome when it worked but when it didnt he had no answer we had no counter no plan b .. thats what RL was drilling into the team in the first 2 years the whole plan B

Just because GT was bad, doesn't mean that Lyon is good.


Besides, as I said - it wasn't until the board stepped in that things changed.

[saintsRrising]

It wasn't until the board stepped in that things were pointed in the right direction.

Besides, as I said - it wasn't until the board stepped in that things changed.

As in??

I mean what were these specific instructions and directions?
How did they step in that made the cliamed change?


Personally I believe that nothing more happened that Westaway and Co stating that they would like more goals to keep the massees happy....

Specific directions and advice that improved Lyon I would be most interested to see listed.

Please detail?

[st_Trav_ofWA]

Which makes me a chuckle a bit when people talk themselves as having 'known from day 1 he was god'.

Reality was, he wasn't. Lots of changes had to be made and lots of help was required before results started to show.

Having said all that, let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. This is his 4th year at the club and we still don't have any silverwear to show for it.

RF you can chuckle all you want but i knew RL was going to be good for us from day 1 ... Ross was never struggleing it was always going to take time for his ideas to work ... it took a while to weed out the dead wood from the GT era and also to change the mindset of the playing group

under GT it was attack attack attack and hope that we kick more goals then the other teams did .. and to a point that worked well except when it mattered against quallity teams under GT we looked awsome when it worked but when it didnt he had no answer we had no counter no plan b .. thats what RL was drilling into the team in the first 2 years the whole plan B

Just because GT was bad, doesn't mean that Lyon is good.


Besides, as I said - it wasn't until the board stepped in that things changed.

no but i could see the direction that RL was looking in .. i wasnt calling for his blood cause the game style changed to lock down i could see that it was just another way to counter the other team

GT wasnt bad it was just he wasnt good enough to see that we needed another dimension to our team game plan GT was too focused on one style to consider other options ..

as for what the board steped in with i have no idea what your on about the sudden improvment was more the players being weeded out , the understanding of the plan , the "ghosts" of former coaches being removed, and the improvement of our injury list ... i dont think the board had anything to do with it except spending more money on supporting RL

[saintsRrising]

The true story about how Lyon/the players/the club turned it around so quickly will be written one day. I'll be an interested reader.

The true story eh.

In other words you give him no credit?

"turned it around so quickly"

Why was it quickly??....maybe just maybe Lyon had over time diligently worked away to improve the list in quality, both in who we have, and in how they play, and in their attitude and workrate.

Maybe CJ had to be developed over a couple of seasons, rather than one game.

Maybe our gameplan is very complex (and it is not one gameplan , but rathera series of different plays depending if the ball is in dspute, or controlled by one team....and jow the other team structures up etc) and takesa while to master


Maybe he inheriteda lot of down-hil skiers that had to learn the mental toughness to play 4 quarters..

Maybe it took several years of recruiting/trading to improve the balance of the team...


Thing is that many of the ardent Lyon critics, whom it would seem would still rather think it is Westaway pulling the strings, rather than give Lyon any credit tend to believe that everything was rosey when GT was exited out., rather than in decline....and that blinkers your thinking.

You wont accept that there were some serious flaws that needed addressing and seem to think we were still the team in "The Streak".

Now we are all biased...and my paradigm and perspective is different from yours.

My paradigm is that Lyon inherited quite a good list but with many flaws.
* aging midfield with many about to retire
* no rucks to speak of
* players that played in bursts and who were poor at stopping another team on the surge
* list mangement a farce
* etc etc..

Lyon has worked at improving them all...from day 1.

Did I think he was god from Day 1? No.

But did I believe that he was bringing a very structured and disciplined approach to the saints from Day 1? = yes.

Look at just rucks for example...traded in cheaply for competitive rucks now while having drafting to secure good rucks stocks for the future..


Now he has not been perfect in everything. But who is?

Importantly he has done a lot more right than wrong.

[saintsRrising]

GT wasnt bad it was just he wasnt good enough to see that we needed another dimension to our team game plan GT was too focused on one style to consider other options ..

Wise words.


And Clarkson, if he does not evolve his gameplan, will soon join the list of exited out coaches.

[rodgerfox]

Thing is that many of the ardent Lyon critics, whom it would seem would still rather think it is Westaway pulling the strings, rather than give Lyon any credit

That's funny.

Who thinks that? Let me know because I'd be interested in disucssing that with them. That's just crazy.

The president pulling the strings?? Laughable.

[meher baba]

The true story about how Lyon/the players/the club turned it around so quickly will be written one day. I'll be an interested reader.

The true story eh.

In other words you give him no credit?

turned it around so quickly

Why was it quickly....maybe just maybe Lyon had over time diligently worked away to improve the list in quality, both in who we have, and in how they play, and in their attitude and workrate.

Maybe CJ had to be developed over a couple of seasons, rather than one game.

Maybe our gameplan is very complex (and it is not one gameplan , but rathera series of different plays depending if the ball is in dspute, or controlled by one team....and jow the other team structures up etc) and takesa while to master


Maybe he inheriteda lot of down-hil skiers that had to learn the mental toughness to play 4 quarters..

Maybe it took several years of recruiting/trading to improve the balance of the team...


Thing is that many of the ardent Lyon critics, whom it would seem would still rather think it is Westaway pulling the strings, rather than give Lyon any credit tend to believe that everything was rosey when GT was exited out., rather than in decline....and that clors your thinking.

You wont accept that theur were some serious flaws that needed addressing and seem to think we were still the team in "The Streak".

Now we are all biased...and my paradigm and perspective is different from yours.

My paradigm is that Lyon inherited quite a good list but with many flaws.
* aging midfield with many about to retire
* no rucks to speak of
* players that played in bursts and who were poor at stopping another team on the surge
* listamangement a farce
*etc etc..

Lyon has worked at improving them all...from day 1.

Did I think he was god from Day 1? No.

But did I believe that he was bringing a very structured and disciplined approach to the saints from Day 1? = yes.

Look at just rucks for example...traded in cheaply for competitive rucks now while having drafting to secure good rucks stocks for the future..


Now he has not been perfect in everything. But who is/

Importantly he has donea lot more right than wrong.

What a ridiculous overreaction to what I said: you are totally obsessive in your Lyon vs GT view of the universe aren't you? I'd like to know the true story about the reasons for that.

I'm not belittling Lyon's role in what happened. But the turn around was sudden: about a year ago, I checked out some videos of the games from 2008 and found that the change in playing styles was even more dramatic than I had recalled.

The way we played prior to the dropping of Dal and Milne/Westaway's celebrated public statement of support for the coach was very similar to the way we have played in recent weeks against Port and (until the last 10 minutes) the Dogs: everyone retreating back behind the ball, crowding space in our defensive 50, waiting for a turnover and then, when we got one, struggling to get the ball out of our own half.

Then, in the second half of 2008, we started to try to lock the ball up in their defensive 50, having our small forwards trying to tackle everything in sight, leaving Riewoldt and one other up the ground to receive the ball after turnovers, etc.

We still played a lot of guys back in defence, and we still tried to crowd space if our opponents had the ball for long periods, but we didn't always bring everyone back.

I don't think there is any doubt that the Board said something to the coach in mid-2008: I can't imagine aggressive, hard at the ball players like Burkey and Thommo sitting and watching the first dozen or so games in 2008 and deciding to remain silent about what they were watching.

But I also believe that 99% of the work to turn things around was undertaken by Lyon himself, working with his assistants and players.

As I've posted on here before, the tactics Lyon used in 2007 and 2008 are what I would call "SCG" tactics. That ground is so small and wide that you can crowd 18 players back, win a turnover, and then have some players spread out as receivers and simultaneously have others run quickly up the guts to the attacking 50.

Of all the grounds in the AFL, this tactic works the worst at Etihad (closely followed by Subi). Etihad is reasonably long, but narrow: only a limited amount of spreading out is possible when coming out of defence, control of the central corridor is vital. And the best way to do that is to keep the ball up in your attacking 50 as much as possible.

One of the things we need in order to make this strategy work (at least under Lyon, I'm not sure if this would be case with other coaches) is all of our key performers fit and in form. We had virtually all of our top players available in the second half of 2008, and Lenny had just started fully to shake off the effects of his 2006 injury.

With Riewoldt and Gram injured, we are drifting back to playing the way we did in 2007 and early 2008. I think this indicates a bit of a problem with the Lyon game plan: it's fantastic at getting the most possible out of our list with all of our top players available, but some of the second stringers reallly struggle to get the hang of it.