Old ruckmen that we seem to have belief in?

[Batnoe]

I know the answer to our rucking problem was a short term fix with King and Gardiner, but they're really not that good -King especially

I guess they're keeping honest in the hitouts and not giving the opposition too much freedom from the centre but maybe that is because our midfield is pretty good.

I serioulsy think we have to play our younger guys and give them practice. Ben McEvoy and Stanly are our futre, why not play them?

I rate Gardiner a whole lot more than King as he does more around the ground and can sneak forward and kick a goal, but King is a liability...

I know Sandilands is 9ft tall, but he had 42 hitouts on his own yesterday.. After 5 games our rucks have had a combined total of 115, King 58 and Gardiner 57. They are 23 and 24th in hitouts for the year in the comp. These two are supposed to be our answer to our ruck weakness....

I know it takes longer for ruckmen to start playing well, but it also gets to a stage when they get too old and dont do anything. Would we serioulsy lose anything by playing our younger guys and giving them games considering our 'experienced ruckmen' arent that good?

Combined stats
Hitouts-115
possessions- 74
marks-27
frees for-7
frees against-15
tackles- 10
goals- 1
behinds -1

Sydney totals (mumford and Seaby)
hitouts- 182
possessions-123
marks-29
frees for-15
frees against-15
tackles-32
goals-3
behinds 2


West coast- cox and Natinui
hotouts- 224
possessions- 127
marks- 19
frees for -22
frees against -17
tackles -31
goals- 8
behinds 4



I remember our GT days and we played an extra mid because we knew we werent going to win the ruck. Our clearaces were ok considering we never had first use. Our mids are so good and we dont ever get first use... i think we either recruit a ready made ruckmen (like Jamar- Goldstein) or play our kids.. what have we got to lose?

Even Hawthorn with their perceived lack of ruckmen are doing more than us....

[remboy]

Even Hawthorn with their perceived lack of ruckmen are doing more than us....

Agree with a lot of what you said but I've got to draw the line at this. The Hawks are struggling big time (and I don't think it's just to do with the lack of a ruckman.
I got the feeling at the start of the year that Ross would give Gardi, King and McEvoy about 15 games each. If that's going to be the case, one of them is due to have a rest. Big MAc would at least give us some more mobility around the ground and could help out Kosi a bit (although I worry about the two of them being up forward at the same time).
I odn't think Stanley is ready to play ruck at AFL level. He still needs to build up a lot.

[The Fireman]

King is finished.
Gardiner is still effective.
Must put Kosi in Ruck and give McEvoy more game time.

[Saintsfan]

hitouts to advantage?

Hawthorn would be low surely?

Another negative for the Hawks is that Luke Hodge in the ruck means that Luke Hodge is not on the ball or behind it waiting for it. Same goes for Roughead...he cannot ruck to himself and kick it to himself

[na exa]

King is finished.

... time to teach the youngfellas and stay ultra fit ('10) , just in case.


old legs winning out over experience and valour.

[saintsRrising]

Personally I think that when Lyon arrived he was faced with a fair dinkum rucking disaster.

He stated straight up that he wanted ruckman , and then has not messed around in putting solutions in place.

Immediately capable ruckman were picked up when available. As good ruckman do not often change clubs he took players that were at the end of their careers in Gardiner and King. Clarke also was taken as a back-up, who ended up player more football than that because injury prevented Gardiner from getting on the park. So while many criticised Lyon taking such an old player in Clarke it actually was proved to prudent.


At the Saints time the "grow our own" approach which had not been done for many seasons was re-activated with a low pick used to pick-up Ben, a NSW scholarship for MacGrath and last season a late pick on Stanley.

Now Jamar might be nice...but seriously how are you going to get him?

We have two very young exciting ruck prospects in Ben and Rhys. Ben in particular I would expect to be given many games this year.

Also King and Gardi while no "Ottens" have played some handy football this year.

For example while Sandilands clearly beat King, in my opinion King's bodywork was very good in preventing Sandilands from running absolute riot. Sure he gave away some frees in the exercise, but he also curtailed Sandilands on many occasions too allowing our midfield to their job by stopping Sandilands from getting clear hitouts. I would suspect that he would have slaughtered Ben or Rhys.

Now while some stats have been presented that do not include 1%ers and all the good hard bodywork that King does as well as other bits of play.

ie ever noticed how both King and Gardi get back to spoil on the goal line?

Now yes Ben and Stanley are our ruck future. But playing them in every game at present is a bit premature.

Ben is almost, almost, there. I suspect soon he will push past one of our older two ruckman. Just not sure if it will be this yea or next though.

Stanley is a bit further away...at least as a ruckman. Raw excitement is there...but also remember that the current St Kilda success is built upon team football and players that can deliver this over 4 quarters. Stanley makes the blood pump, but he also goes missing for large chunks iof the game.

Now if it was me personally, I would be while Roo is out playing Stanley up forward to see how he goes as I personally think we structure up better with two tall market targets. But I can also understand erring on the side of more mature bodies and minds. Note that in the VFL he is not dominating and thru this demanding a senior place and so if promoted such a selection would be speculative.

Also note that while the extremely talented Nic Nat is going ok, that he is very physically mature. Whereas the also very talented, but less physically developed, Jack Watts suffered at being played early.


So I am in favour in giving experience to our young rucks, but not all at once. I would still be keeping one of Gardi or King out there as well.

[derby Street]

Personally I think that when Lyon arrived he was faced with a fair dinkum rucking disaster.

He stated straight up that he wanted ruckman , and then has not messed around in putting solutions in place.

Immediately capable ruckman were picked up when available. As good ruckman do not often change clubs he took players that were at the end of their careers in Gardiner and King. Clarke also was taken as a back-up, who ended up player more football than that because injury prevented Gardiner from getting on the park. So while many criticised Lyon taking such an old player in Clarke it actually was proved to prudent.


At the Saints time the "grow our own" approach which had not been done for many seasons was re-activated with a low pick used to pick-up Ben, a NSW scholarship for MacGrath and last season a late pick on Stanley.

Now Jamar might be nice...but seriously how are you going to get him?

We have two very young exciting ruck prospects in Ben and Rhys. Ben in particular I would expect to be given many games this year.

Also King and Gardi while no "Ottens" have played some handy football this year.

For example while Sandilands clearly beat King, in my opinion King's bodywork was very good in preventing Sandilands from running absolute riot. Sure he gave away some frees in the exercise, but he also curtailed Sandilands on many occasions too allowing our midfield to their job by stopping Sandilands from getting clear hitouts. I would suspect that he would have slaughtered Ben or Rhys.

Now while some stats have been presented that do not include 1%ers and all the good hard bodywork that King does as well as other bits of play.

ie ever noticed how both King and Gardi get back to spoil on the goal line?

Now yes Ben and Stanley are our ruck future. But playing them in every game at present is a bit premature.

Ben is almost, almost, there. I suspect soon he will push past one of our older two ruckman. Just not sure if it will be this yea or next though.

Stanley is a bit further away...at least as a ruckman. Raw excitement is there...but also remember that the current St Kilda success is built upon team football and players that can deliver this over 4 quarters. Stanley makes the blood pump, but he also goes missing for large chunks iof the game.

Now if it was me personally, I would be while Roo is out playing Stanley up forward to see how he goes as I personally think we structure up better with two tall market targets. But I can also understand erring on the side of more mature bodies and minds. Note that in the VFL he is not dominating and thru this demanding a senior place and so if promoted such a selection would be speculative.

Also note that while the extremely talented Nic Nat is going ok, that he is very physically mature. Whereas the also very talented, but less physically developed, Jack Watts suffered at being played early.


So I am in favour in giving experience to our young rucks, but not all at once. I would still be keeping one of Gardi or King out there as well.

Can't disagree with much in that summary at all. However it seems Mac only really gets a game when one of the other 2 are injured. When Mac is picked and he plays a poor game there is an immediate call for him to be
dropped. At some stage we need to dvelop our own ruck stocks - and yes easier said than done.

[na exa]

thanx for the effort ... that was a good read

[saintsRrising]

However it seems Mac only really gets a game when one of the other 2 are injured. .

Last year I would agree.

Though Ben started this year with King at Sandi. His game was not good though, and his NAB Cup form only so so.

I would speculate that if he had played better that he would have stayed in.

In particular if his marks had of been sticking it would have increased his value as a "ruck-forward". But with that aspect not coming to the fore the decision point would have narrow to just ruckman vs ruckman based on ruckwork including the 1%ers. Hard bodies of mature ruckman are an asset.

[derby Street]

However it seems Mac only really gets a game when one of the other 2 are injured. .

Last year I would agree.

Though Ben started this year with King at Sandi. His game was not good though, and his NAB Cup form only so so.

I would speculate that if he had played better that he would have stayed in.

In particular if his marks had of been sticking it would have increased his value as a "ruck-forward". But with that aspect not coming to the fore the decision point would have narrow to just ruckman vs ruckman based on ruckwork including the 1%ers. Hard bodies of mature ruckman are an asset.

SR do you think we need to just play Mac regardless or are the consequences to risky ? I believe Mac will be a good player but I am concerned he will be thrown in the deep end if it should all end for 2 & 15 sooner rather than later ??

[Mr Magic]

Also the stats are deceiving.
King and Gardiner have played 4 less games (6 out of a possible 10 between them) which means they ahve 40% less total games than those they are being compared against.

Another case of making the statistics fit the hypothesis you're trying to promote?

[derby Street]

Also the stats are deceiving.
King and Gardiner have played 4 less games (6 out of a possible 10 between them) which means they ahve 40% less total games than those they are being compared against.

Another case of making the statistics fit the hypothesis you're trying to promote?

Valid point MM - on the totals - howevever I suspect their average per game is still down. They simply are not big possession winners. I think Ross just wants them to play a role ????? (perhaps I am just being kind )

[Mr Magic]

Also the stats are deceiving.
King and Gardiner have played 4 less games (6 out of a possible 10 between them) which means they ahve 40% less total games than those they are being compared against.

Another case of making the statistics fit the hypothesis you're trying to promote?

Valid point MM - on the totals - howevever I suspect their average per game is still down. They simply are not big possession winners. I think Ross just wants them to play a role ????? (perhaps I am just being kind )

You may be right but if you quickly look at the hitouts stat alone adn compare it to 60% of the figure posted in the OP then Gardiner + King compare favourably with Sydney and are only 10% behind WCE.

What does that then say about the stats supporting the op hypothesis?

[derby Street]

Also the stats are deceiving.
King and Gardiner have played 4 less games (6 out of a possible 10 between them) which means they ahve 40% less total games than those they are being compared against.

Another case of making the statistics fit the hypothesis you're trying to promote?

Valid point MM - on the totals - howevever I suspect their average per game is still down. They simply are not big possession winners. I think Ross just wants them to play a role ????? (perhaps I am just being kind )

You may be right but if you quickly look at the hitouts stat alone adn compare it to 60% of the figure posted in the OP then Gardiner + King compare favourably with Sydney and are only 10% behind WCE.

What does that then say about the stats supporting the op hypothesis?

Glad to be put right with the facts on the hitout averages MM although I suspect Cox hasn't played every game for WC. That aside your point is taken.

[saintsRrising]

SR do you think we need to just play Mac regardless or are the consequences to risky ? I believe Mac will be a good player but I am concerned he will be thrown in the deep end if it should all end for 2 & 15 sooner rather than later ??

There are still 17 games of H&A left. Ben does not need to play all of them.

However I see the finals as being quite tough this year and so we need any extra edge possible.

Ben may be part of this., if he can improve. So I would play him in say two thirds of those of those games. With a fit King and Gardi I think we know what we can get. If Ben does not improve...then they play finals.

The other reason is that we need a Plan B, C & D if Roo does not come back

Playing Ben in the conditions that we had against PA probably would have gained little.

[matrix]

brogan had 26 on the weekend and lobbe had 10
gards had 10 and kingy had 16

[Milton66]

King is finished.
Gardiner is still effective.
Must put Kosi in Ruck and give McEvoy more game time.

Yup. Spot on.

Kosi's pluses around the ground will far outweigh any extra taps King will get IMO.

Stick Ben at FF to replace Kosi. Slot BJ at CHF until Roo comes back.