Time for structure...

[Teflon]

I dont believe we should keep pulling players from defence to plug Roos absence and Im convinced when I see Gwitl walk down fwd its a waste of time (hes impressed back).

To meI honestly think its time to see how a Kosi/Stanley fwd line goes.

Before howling me down - I know the kids green and he may not play every week but Id give him an extended run to see if he can acclimatise.

Kosi as the deeper option, Stanley up at CHF and both to rotate. From there the other options are used only on an as needed basis. I watched young Grant up fwd for the Dogs the other night and he looked to adjust well......so why not see if Stanley can?

I actually reckon Stanley's speed could help immensly with fwd line pressure and this alone would be a huge chop out for Kosi while the ball hits the deck. Vice versa - Kosi gets another tall to work with and can assist take the heat off Stanley with his contested marking.

This preserves the "two talls" structure and Milnes/Schneiders dont have to be central targets (but obviously play huge roles).

FWIW my changes would be:

Out:

Peak
Mqualter
Eddy

In:
Ray
Gram
Stanley

2 runners and another taller defensive option who has real pace (obviously Gram/Ray need to be fit).

Id also be letting Geary/Armo know that if Jack Steven turns it on in the VFL...changes will come...as Id like to get some games into this kid.

Thoughts?

[SainterK]

I agree we need to find a structure to stablise things, instead of mixing it up all the time. It's not like Roo's back soon, it's an extended period of time, and really should be treated as though he is not coming back at all this year.

In regards to Steven, is he limited to a midfielder position, or could he play a defensive small forward?

Thought Goddard was a little flat, I think he is hungering for CHF if you ask me, he wants to stand up and take it and I say let him.

I also agree Kosi should be deep FF, but what Ross brought as far as game plan last night, didn't really accomodate a fixed forward setup.

[saintsRrising]

I dont believe we should keep pulling players from defence to plug Roos absence and Im convinced when I see Gwitl walk down fwd its a waste of time (hes impressed back).

I think that with Gram and Ray both out that bJ was used to prop up the midfield.

I would assume that one or both will be back against the Dogs and that BJ will spend more time forward as a result.


But yes I agree that we need more than one marking target up forward.

TIP FOR KOISI: Avoid the one on one body contact for you are poor at it. Stay on the move and you will havea much better chance of success.

[Teflon]

I dont believe we should keep pulling players from defence to plug Roos absence and Im convinced when I see Gwitl walk down fwd its a waste of time (hes impressed back).

I think that with Gram and Ray both out that bJ was used to prop up the midfield.

I would assume that one or both will be back against the Dogs and that BJ will spend more time forward as a result.


But yes I agree that we need more than one marking target up forward.

TIP FOR KOISI: Avoid the one on one body contact for you are poor at it. Stay on the move and you will havea much better chance of success.

I think its well known Kosi in motion is a much different marking prospect than trying the wrestle method where he just gives away to many free kicks.

What has concerned me with Kosi on the lead has been his timing - which must be pure confidence....he seems to even make the simple lead out chest mark look like its difficult...at times getting arms/legs tangled.....

Also when it hist the ground as others have said hes a liability - here is where IMO Stanley could make a real impact...... I noted in NAB games his speed really hurried defenders up who I think were surprised to see a big guy like that coming at them so quick........

Stanley doesnt need to kick 5 a game but if he added defensively and lead up....theres no reason why a Goddard couldnt also be employed on a flank...

[Milton66]

Similar to my thoughts.

Except that I has Zac penciled in.

Having Ray and Gram out was damaging.

Question about Steven is: Does he have the tank for a mid role?

[Saintsfan]

Our midfield is one of the best in the competition therefore the supply to our forward line should be quality. With Kosi back do we want a second tall? or stick small again?

Mind you what happened last night should not have anything to do with ones' opinion as it was a bit of a shocker.

[Milton66]

Yeah, but do you trust Kosi to kick 5... or do you trust BJ to kick 5 week in... week out?

[Saintsfan]

Yeah, but do you trust Kosi to kick 5... or do you trust BJ to kick 5 week in... week out?

Kosi. Goddard will have his off weeks in the forward line and couple with his anger and impatience at times it might compound the issue if things are not working.

so Kosi for mine

[Milton66]

Yeah, but do you trust Kosi to kick 5... or do you trust BJ to kick 5 week in... week out?

Kosi. Goddard will have his off weeks in the forward line and couple with his anger and impatience at times it might compound the issue if things are not working.

so Kosi for mine

Serious?

Let's see what happens Friday.

I reckon Lake will towel him up.

Sorry, but I've lost confidence on Kosi. But that's just my opinion.

Hope to heck he proves me wrong coz we need him big time.

[Saintsfan]

Yeah, but do you trust Kosi to kick 5... or do you trust BJ to kick 5 week in... week out?

Kosi. Goddard will have his off weeks in the forward line and couple with his anger and impatience at times it might compound the issue if things are not working.

so Kosi for mine

Serious?

Let's see what happens Friday.

I reckon Lake will towel him up.

Sorry, but I've lost confidence on Kosi. But that's just my opinion.

Hope to heck he proves me wrong coz we need him big time.

I think Goddard is the new golden child of this place. He is best played in the midfield even without Riewoldt in my opinion.

With this in mind though we are very good at creating space for our talls and scoring on the counter attack.

I have not lost confidence in Kosi. I am sure he is going to come good after his suspension and dominate. If I had the choice of the two staying within the forward 50 I would choose Kosi.

Goddard is not tall enough so play key forward constantly. He is not quick enough on the lead either. He is a good mark on the lead however his opponent will have to be bloody slow for him to take a mark on the lead.

Kosi has the heigh and is a great contested grab. To me he is your traditional stay at home forward. Accurate kicks with Kosi coming from behind the pack suit him.

[rodgerfox]

Kosi has the heigh and is a great contested grab. To me he is your traditional stay at home forward. Accurate kicks with Kosi coming from behind the pack suit him.

I reckon that's one of the biggest myths in footy.

I haven't seen Kosi take a contested mark against a decent defender....ever.


I just don't think he's a forward. Slow on the lead, an incredibly unreliable kick for goal, and gets pushed out of position too easily.


In relation to the OP, I think we have to use Roo's absence to find a 'plan B' outside of the Two Tall thing.

I don't think it works because of the Two Talls thing - I think it's worked because Roo is one of the talls.

The only time a tall forward line wins enough games to win a flag - is when you have star tall forwards.


Really though, we kicked over 100 points against Freo (to be fair they are a bit leaky though) and had we not had the chronic fumbles we would have kicked 70-80 points against a very defensive Port in the wet.
We were also without 2 key mids.

So I don't think we should adhere to the Two Talls attack. Because I don't think it's an effective method without Roo.
Even with Roo, it can be ineffective if he has a quiet day - so this is the ideal time to find another way to score.

[na exa]

What has concerned me with Kosi on the lead has been his timing - which must be pure confidence....he seems to even make the simple lead out chest mark look like its difficult...at times getting arms/legs tangled.....

he's forever getting the ball delivered 'short'

instead of meeting the ball , he has to turn into superkos , just to attempt to reach the thing, let alone mark it.

delivery ... big part of the issue, dont ya reckon.

[Saintsfan]

Kosi has the heigh and is a great contested grab. To me he is your traditional stay at home forward. Accurate kicks with Kosi coming from behind the pack suit him.

I reckon that's one of the biggest myths in footy.

I haven't seen Kosi take a contested mark against a decent defender....ever.


I just don't think he's a forward. Slow on the lead, an incredibly unreliable kick for goal, and gets pushed out of position too easily.


In relation to the OP, I think we have to use Roo's absence to find a 'plan B' outside of the Two Tall thing.

I don't think it works because of the Two Talls thing - I think it's worked because Roo is one of the talls.

The only time a tall forward line wins enough games to win a flag - is when you have star tall forwards.


Really though, we kicked over 100 points against Freo (to be fair they are a bit leaky though) and had we not had the chronic fumbles we would have kicked 70-80 points against a very defensive Port in the wet.
We were also without 2 key mids.

So I don't think we should adhere to the Two Talls attack. Because I don't think it's an effective method without Roo.
Even with Roo, it can be ineffective if he has a quiet day - so this is the ideal time to find another way to score.

So what you are saying is that I have 'Raph Clarke Syndrome' whereby I see Kosi take a contested grab once in a while and think it happens more than it actually does?

[na exa]

morning milton.

[SainterK]

Kosi has the heigh and is a great contested grab. To me he is your traditional stay at home forward. Accurate kicks with Kosi coming from behind the pack suit him.

I reckon that's one of the biggest myths in footy.

I haven't seen Kosi take a contested mark against a decent defender....ever.


I just don't think he's a forward. Slow on the lead, an incredibly unreliable kick for goal, and gets pushed out of position too easily.


In relation to the OP, I think we have to use Roo's absence to find a 'plan B' outside of the Two Tall thing.

I don't think it works because of the Two Talls thing - I think it's worked because Roo is one of the talls.

The only time a tall forward line wins enough games to win a flag - is when you have star tall forwards.


Really though, we kicked over 100 points against Freo (to be fair they are a bit leaky though) and had we not had the chronic fumbles we would have kicked 70-80 points against a very defensive Port in the wet.
We were also without 2 key mids.

So I don't think we should adhere to the Two Talls attack. Because I don't think it's an effective method without Roo.
Even with Roo, it can be ineffective if he has a quiet day - so this is the ideal time to find another way to score.

Ideal time to find another way to score, but for some reason, it's not happening.

The signs were good round one and two, we had about 10 goal contributors, 5 of which were not part of our forward structure.

Since then it's got progressively worse, and why this is, I am not sure?

I do know that one goal from our ruckman resting forward so far this year is not enough, the fact that only one goal from outside of our forward line Saturday night was poor, and not much better the week before against Freo.

It's not about the two tall forward structure being ineffective, it's when any key forward is relied upon to kick a bag to win the game.

Without being too unfair, because I really like the guy, a small forward that only kicks 2 goals in 5 games needs to be looked at I think.

[bigcarl]

teflon, sRs and milton66 have pretty much covered what i would have said in this thread and the answer is in there somewhere.

i would point out though that forward structure amounts to nothing if everyone is behind the ball.

we get away with it to an extent with a player with a tank like riewoldt's, but in his absence no one can make up the ground required quickly enough.

[Solar]

teflon, sRs and milton66 have pretty much covered what i would have said in this thread and the answer is in there somewhere.

i would point out though that forward structure amounts to nothing if everyone is behind the ball.

we get away with it to an extent with a player with a tank like riewoldt's, but in his absence no one can make up the ground required quickly enough.

agree completely

look personally I like the structure of

kosi stanley
medium forward (raph is my want but heyne or lynch could do well)
schneider, milne
goddard

If you don't want to lose rn then play one ruck and work the two talls through there and useBJ as the secnd tall during these periods.

jimmy goes back and we have a settled back 6

[bigcarl]

I think that with Gram and Ray both out that bJ was used to prop up the midfield.

any word on whether they'll be back this week?

[saintsRrising]

Kosi has the heigh and is a great contested grab. To me he is your traditional stay at home forward. Accurate kicks with Kosi coming from behind the pack suit him.

I reckon that's one of the biggest myths in footy.

I haven't seen Kosi take a contested mark against a decent defender....ever.

.

Kosi is not a stay at home forward for the same reason that he is not a good ruckman. He does not know how to use his body.

However he is quite an effective forward IF he avoids the body contact and wresting. Note that he did handball out for two goals from memory against PA.

Now Kosi can play as say a No 2 ruck...but not well. He is too slow and not agile for HB role.

But he can play a role up forward, either with Roo, or without. Last year showed that.

However the notion that Kosi will "star" in Roos' absence needs to be abandoned.

Kosi is an average player who will deliver the occasional very good game "out of the box". If we measure him by that yardstick he will go ok.

Bur he needs to avoid trying to take on the his opponent in bodywork.


Also with Kosi we do not want a forward line where he is the only go to option. He is not good enough, and in particular his groundwork is not good enough.

[bigcarl]

Kosi is not a stay at home forward for the same reason that he is not a good ruckman. He does not know how to use his body.

like zac he needs to make the ball his object.

focus on the ball kosi ... the ball, the ball, the ball.

Also with Kosi we do not want a forward line where he is the only go to option. He is not good enough, and in particular his groundwork is not good enough.

+1

[Moods]

I don't think it works because of the Two Talls thing - I think it's worked because Roo is one of the talls.

The only time a tall forward line wins enough games to win a flag - is when you have star tall forwards.

What about that cats? Not sure Mooney is a star, and Hawkins definitely isn't. Two tall fwds are important to maintain your structure, ie to have that get out kick into the fwd line. Sat night we lost our structure. We need to deliver the ball to Kosi on the move so he can run and leap at it, whether one on one or in a pack situation.

Our fwd line was NOT the problem on Sat night it was our midfield. We could hardly get it in there, and when we did there was nobody there to contest. I'll say it again, Kosi is being hung out b/c he dropped that mark in the last 1/4. Our mids needed to be cleaner through the centre of the ground and give the fwds more quality and quantity of delivery. In fact the more I think about it there was only about 4-5 players that played serviceable games, and the rest were well down. To lose by only 10 points in that situation is a pretty good effort I reckon.

[bigcarl]

Our fwd line was NOT the problem on Sat night it was our midfield. We could hardly get it in there, and when we did there was nobody there to contest.

it was both (imo). nobody there to contest indicates no forward line.

[matrix]

<< agree with the OP

[Eastern]

I'm yet to be convinced that Rhys Stanley is ready for AFL standard footy right now. Reports out of the VFL at the weekend suggested that he couldn't get near the pill.

I would like to see/read of at least 2-3 standout games at VFL level before being considered for the senior side. I'd love to see him and others get their chance to prove themselves at the top level but they need to earn that opportunity first !!

[rodgerfox]

I don't think it works because of the Two Talls thing - I think it's worked because Roo is one of the talls.

The only time a tall forward line wins enough games to win a flag - is when you have star tall forwards.

What about that cats? Not sure Mooney is a star, and Hawkins definitely isn't. Two tall fwds are important to maintain your structure, ie to have that get out kick into the fwd line. Sat night we lost our structure. We need to deliver the ball to Kosi on the move so he can run and leap at it, whether one on one or in a pack situation.

Our fwd line was NOT the problem on Sat night it was our midfield. We could hardly get it in there, and when we did there was nobody there to contest. I'll say it again, Kosi is being hung out b/c he dropped that mark in the last 1/4. Our mids needed to be cleaner through the centre of the ground and give the fwds more quality and quantity of delivery. In fact the more I think about it there was only about 4-5 players that played serviceable games, and the rest were well down. To lose by only 10 points in that situation is a pretty good effort I reckon.

I don't think Geelong really base their scoring around Two Talls though.

I guess that's my point. If Geelong setup solely around Mooney and whoever he has with him at the time (N Ablett, Hawkins) they wouldn't kick enough goals to win games. Well not enough to win flags anyway.

Their key is their mediums and smalls up forward.

Really, if anything Steve Johnson is their most important forward.


Re you point about the mids - I agree. Losing Ray and Gram from the midfield is a huge loss which naturally had a major influence on our fluency.