A forlorn figure after the game

[plugger66]

Is there an article saying Ball wanted to go in August or only an article saying the pies wanted Ball?

An article stating that 'the Pies were prepared to offer him 500k pa and that was well above what St Kilda had offered him'.

At the time I thought it was a 'negotiating tactic' by Ball's management to try adn 'wedge' the Saints offer up.

Given that the Saints offer never did go up, he obviously decided to accept it.

To believe that Collingwood only negotiated with Ball (his management) after the Grand Final is to believe in the tooth fairy (IMO).

They were still a top side at that point and that is my point. If he wanted to go back then they wanted him so why try to get to another club. I dont actually see what you are saying.

My point is that if that article was correct (and hindsight would point to it being correct) then his management was negotiating with another Club for more money
- not for more game time
- not for a different role
- not for a guaranteed game

but a bigger salary than what he was being offered at St Kilda.

Now he can sugarcoat it all he likes after the fact with a whole heap of justifications,
but initially he (his management) spoke to Colloingwood about more money.

On the other hand, Goose and X left for more/better opportunity.

If I remember rightly and if your timeframes are correct and Denham is right for the first time then Bally was struggling for all those things you mentioned so how do you know they werent part of the talks but you seem to know it was about money. Can you tell me what RL is going to do with week as well.

I will as soon as Denham writes the article.

As for yuor question.
It doesn't take a great leap of faith to figure out who gave Denham the information.
It couldn't have been St Kilda
It could only have come from 2 places - Collingwood and/or the Ball camp.
Given that the information was 'leaked' to Denham, why would they only 'leak' the fiscal arrangements if there were other problems at the 'root cause' of his unhappiness?
Plugger, you're a perceptive guy, you try and explain why Connors was negotiating with Collingwood for Ball's services in July/August?
He already knew then that he was only going to get less than 50% game time in a grandfinal that hadn't taken place yet?

.

No he didnt that but the thing he did know is that Bally had been dropped teice to sandy. Next step is out the door. Lets face it if Bally didnt want to go he certainly would have been on the trade table anyway. Nothing wrong with that however as probably 80% of players are tradable.

[Saintsfan]

This has been done to death and it does not look good on St Kilda supporters as a whole re the amount of criticism of Luke Ball.

The vast majority are smug as all hell when talking about him seemingly with an 'i told you so attitude' to all that have to listen. It seems as if his talents and short comings have been amplified by supporters as if they play the game themselves and have had experience alongside him.

Give it a rest guys.

How many of you have moved to another position or job for either a fresh start or figuring out you were not too good at the one you were in currently?

Or you felt like you did not fit into the group anymore. Times change.

I am sure nobody will admit to it as we are all apparently strong willed individuals that are the closest to perfection that any human can come across...but sure

Continue to bag the man who gets paid handsomely to do something that he is good at. How many people on here can say that? And in the process set themselves up for life both financially and through the contacts him and his manager have created through playing professional sport.

But sure...lay into him

[Mr Magic]

Why was Ball dropped to Sandringham the first time?
Remember it was a week when Sandringham had the bye, so he couldn't have played in teh reserves that day.

Was it poor form?
If so, there was no way to get better form if you don't play a game.

If not poor form, then what?
What could be achieved by dropping him when there was no chance to play anywhere else?

Maybe it was so he could have some specific training?
If that was the case, then surely he would have been told the reasoning?

And this occured after the new contract for him was placed on the table.

I'd happily accept the Ball/Collingwood argument that we pushed him out the door if most/some/any of the facts actually pointed in that direction.
But, IMO, they do not.
They atually point in the other direction.

How's this for a scenario timeline.

-Ball is in the last year of a back-ended deal paying him 600k
-Saints offer a new 3 year deal for 333k.
-Connors goes looking for what other offers he can get.
-Saints become alarmed at Ball's inability to recuperate from games and diminishing core fitness.
-They come up with a plan to 'drop' him from teh team adn undergo a specific training regimen during a 2 week period when Sandringham is not playing.
-Something happens and Ball remains at Sandringham
-Ball is eventually recalled for the Hawthorn game where he plays well
-The following week he is towelled up by Jobe Watson and finds himself back at Sandringham.
-In the meantime Connors has found an offer from Collingwood for 500k pa
-Connors goes back to the Saints who reply that their 333k offer stands
-Ball remains at Sandringham until the finals.
-Ball plays in all finals including less than 50% of gametime in the GF
-Trade week comes along and Ball insists on being traded to Collingwood.

The rest we know.
When do you reckon Ball realized that things were untenable with Lyon?
Before or after Connors got the 500k pa offer?

[Dr Spaceman]

This has been done to death and it does not look good on St Kilda supporters as a whole re the amount of criticism of Luke Ball.

The vast majority are smug as all hell when talking about him seemingly with an 'i told you so attitude' to all that have to listen. It seems as if his talents and short comings have been amplified by supporters as if they play the game themselves and have had experience alongside him.

Give it a rest guys.

How many of you have moved to another position or job for either a fresh start or figuring out you were not too good at the one you were in currently?

Or you felt like you did not fit into the group anymore. Times change.

I am sure nobody will admit to it as we are all apparently strong willed individuals that are the closest to perfection that any human can come across...but sure

Continue to bag the man who gets paid handsomely to do something that he is good at. How many people on here can say that? And in the process set themselves up for life both financially and through the contacts him and his manager have created through playing professional sport.

But sure...lay into him

A well balanced and considered post Saintsfan.

BUT, like actors, movie stars and other celebrities, AFL players make their considered wealth not just by playing well, but by being supported by their fans. Without those fans there would be no wealth for the AFL to splash around.

So these players need to be able to take the good with the bad. And if supporters want to give them a bucket load when they flee, then those supporters should be able to do so, and the well paid AFLer should be able to suck it up!

[plugger66]

When he was dropped the second time I think he realised he was in trouble at the Saints and rightly so. His manager as he should looks around and finds one offer from Collinwood. Have no idea of the timetable just that he wasnt getting a game late in the season. As you seem to have things in order you can tell me what is truely correct. I will ask you a question. Do you think Bally would have left if RL had complete faith in him and he was never omitted and played a resonable amount of game time?

[MCG-Unit]

Talk about an over reaction......Just stated my opinion about why I dont get that people are upset...... My point still remains that most on here doubt he would get a game so why wouldnt he leave, and it was never for the money. I dont care what people say about that. It had about 10% to do with why he left. He like you realised he would have struggled for a game this year. By the way of course Bally was upset. The team he plays for lost.

Completely agree - some can't let it go.

They need to convince people it was only about money - and Ball is no good anyway. They're hoping he fails so they can say 'I told you so'

[joffaboy]

Talk about an over reaction......Just stated my opinion about why I dont get that people are upset...... My point still remains that most on here doubt he would get a game so why wouldnt he leave, and it was never for the money. I dont care what people say about that. It had about 10% to do with why he left. He like you realised he would have struggled for a game this year. By the way of course Bally was upset. The team he plays for lost.

Completely agree - some can't let it go.

They need to convince people it was only about money - and Ball is no good anyway. They're hoping he fails so they can say 'I told you so'

Would be appreciated if you would read some of the posts I have made about luke Ball's football ability, before making wild assumptions.

I have constantly posted that he is a good in and under BUT who cant kick it over forty metres, failes to hit targets, is ineffective, and cant run the way is expected by Ross Lyon.

Nothing I saw on Friday night changed my opinion.

Two missed goals from 40 metres out - second one didn't even make the goal line, two goals from direct turnovers by Ball for the Saints, generally ineffctive and very slow.

Got caught with the ball often, and couldn't keep up with Geary or Armo.

Does not play "Saints footy" and therefore wouldn't get into the team.

Still doesn't detract from the fact that he left the Saints for more money. Something I dont mind, but it was the fact he and his camp tried to put all the blame on the Saints that bugged, not just me but many Saints fans.

As for "wanting him to fail" you sound like Mick Malthouse. Personally coundn't care less about some run of the mill filth player.

Certainly want him to fail when they play us. Don't you?

[markp]

Does not play "Saints footy" and therefore wouldn't get into the team.

Please dont use that term, apparently it makes Saintsfan cringe.

[markp]

Do you think Bally would have left if RL had complete faith in him and he was never omitted and played a resonable amount of game time?

It depends on the coin he was offered... with the likelihood of the the answer being 'no' increasing as the figure did.

[joffaboy]

Does not play "Saints footy" and therefore wouldn't get into the team.

Please dont use that term, apparently it makes Saintsfan cringe.

But it is pleasing to make Saintfan cringe.

[Mr Magic]

When he was dropped the second time I think he realised he was in trouble at the Saints and rightly so. His manager as he should looks around and finds one offer from Collinwood. Have no idea of the timetable just that he wasnt getting a game late in the season. As you seem to have things in order you can tell me what is truely correct. I will ask you a question. Do you think Bally would have left if RL had complete faith in him and he was never omitted and played a resonable amount of game time?

And the noney was no better (or only slightly better)?
No I think he would have stayed.

BUT
given that he was dropped twice, given limited game time in the GF, and offered a better deal at Collingwood
I see no reason why he should have stayed.
And I have no problem with that.

What I do have a problem with is the 'character assasination' he, his management and his supporters attempted on our Coach, Club and Captain.

X Clarke and Goose both left for better opportunities/deals.
Why is there no angst directed towards them?

[MCG-Unit]

Talk about an over reaction......Just stated my opinion about why I dont get that people are upset...... My point still remains that most on here doubt he would get a game so why wouldnt he leave, and it was never for the money. I dont care what people say about that. It had about 10% to do with why he left. He like you realised he would have struggled for a game this year. By the way of course Bally was upset. The team he plays for lost.

Completely agree - some can't let it go.

They need to convince people it was only about money - and Ball is no good anyway. They're hoping he fails so they can say 'I told you so'

Would be appreciated if you would read some of the posts I have made about luke Ball's football ability, before making wild assumptions.

I have constantly posted that he is a good in and under BUT who cant kick it over forty metres, failes to hit targets, is ineffective, and cant run the way is expected by Ross Lyon.

Nothing I saw on Friday night changed my opinion.

Two missed goals from 40 metres out - second one didn't even make the goal line, two goals from direct turnovers by Ball for the Saints, generally ineffctive and very slow.

Got caught with the ball often, and couldn't keep up with Geary or Armo.

Does not play "Saints footy" and therefore wouldn't get into the team.

Still doesn't detract from the fact that he left the Saints for more money. Something I dont mind, but it was the fact he and his camp tried to put all the blame on the Saints that bugged, not just me but many Saints fans.

As for "wanting him to fail" you sound like Mick Malthouse. Personally coundn't care less about some run of the mill filth player.

Certainly want him to fail when they play us. Don't you?

Firstly, I edited plugger66 post to make it a general reply, not just his response to you - same thing p66 has stated in other posts as to why Ball left.

Friday night ? I think he was one of their best, in a hard fought match.
I don't care if he plays well, long as the Saints trample Collingwood

No one will ever convince me Ball left for money only, I reckon it was game time, and he didn't get on with the coach - maybe 10% about money. IMO

It's become tiresome how some supporters need to constantly downplay his output at the Saints and now - but inflate whatever salary he supposedly was/is on.........easy then to say he is responsible for his own villain status

[Saintsfan]

Does not play "Saints footy" and therefore wouldn't get into the team.

Please dont use that term, apparently it makes Saintsfan cringe.

But it is pleasing to make Saintfan cringe.

Your time is coming and it's noticeable you have not posted on here often with your internet- bulley bravado since your lackey's were dethroned.

Interesting huh?

[joffaboy]

Firstly, I edited plugger66 post to make it a general reply, not just his response to you - same thing p66 has stated in other posts as to why Ball left.

Fair enough if generic. I can see where you are coming from

Friday night ? I think he was one of their best, in a hard fought match.
I don't care if he plays well, long as the Saints trample Collingwood

One of their best yeah. A bit of a worry for them when a bloke that is nothing much more thn ordinary is their best. A pointer to where they are going this year, i would say.

No one will ever convince me Ball left for money only, I reckon it was game time, and he didn't get on with the coach - maybe 10% about money.

Not money only. he was offered $500k a season. At the Saints he was offered $350k a season. The fact that he was on more coin made it easier to walk away from the club when he was challenged by Lyon to put in a bigger effort.

FWIW I think he is incapable of what Lyon wanted, so really he had to leave.

It's become tiresome how some supporters need to constantly downplay his output at the Saints and now - but inflate whatever salary he supposedly was/is on.........easy then to say he is responsible for his own villain status

To me his output is the same at Collingwood as it was at the Saints. Good in and under, wasteful, with poor penetration and slow as treacle.

Nothing has changed except he is one year older and plays for a team vastly inferior to the Saints.

The only villianous thing he did was to try and paint the Saints as the bad guys. Thats what the issue is.

[joffaboy]

Does not play "Saints footy" and therefore wouldn't get into the team.

Please dont use that term, apparently it makes Saintsfan cringe.

But it is pleasing to make Saintfan cringe.

Your time is coming and it's noticeable you have not posted on here often with your internet- bulley bravado since your lackey's were dethroned.

Interesting huh?

Yeah real interesting.

have you anything to add to the thread in a football sense or are you just going to troll, because if it is the latter, I will just ignore you.

[Mr Magic]

[
It's become tiresome how some supporters need to constantly downplay his output at the Saints and now - but inflate whatever salary he supposedly was/is on.........easy then to say he is responsible for his own villain status

What's to discuss?
It has been widely reprted that he was on, in the last year of a backended contract, 600kpa
It ahs been widely reported that St Kilda offered him 1 million over 3 years for his new deal.

It was reported that COllingwood offered him 500k pa
He declared a salary figure of 500k pa when he nominated for the draft.
It has been widely reported that his deal at COllingwood is 500k pa for the fiorst 2 years and the third year to be negotiated.

What's so difficult to understand?

He's on a better deal at Collingwood that what was offered at the Saints.
Hell, If I was a player I would go with that much differnece between the offers.

But I would have the grace to go respectfully, like X, appreciative of what St Kilda had done for me (and I for them) adn I wouldn't be making up excuses on a daily basis to justify my logical decision.

I don't believe anybody begrudges Ball the ability to maximize his earning potential in a career that may not last too long.
Some/many are upset at the way he went about it - that's all.

We've had many players over the years leave us for a variety of reasons (including more money).
I don't recall the same angst about
Hall
Everitt
or anybody else in the past 15 years, except for Joel Smith.

[Saintsfan]

Does not play "Saints footy" and therefore wouldn't get into the team.

Please dont use that term, apparently it makes Saintsfan cringe.

But it is pleasing to make Saintfan cringe.

Your time is coming and it's noticeable you have not posted on here often with your internet- bulley bravado since your lackey's were dethroned.

Interesting huh?

Yeah real interesting.

have you anything to add to the thread in a football sense or are you just going to troll, because if it is the latter, I will just ignore you.

I only need to read above to your response as to making me cringe to see your bullyboy nancy-knowitall bravado at work.

[plugger66]

When he was dropped the second time I think he realised he was in trouble at the Saints and rightly so. His manager as he should looks around and finds one offer from Collinwood. Have no idea of the timetable just that he wasnt getting a game late in the season. As you seem to have things in order you can tell me what is truely correct. I will ask you a question. Do you think Bally would have left if RL had complete faith in him and he was never omitted and played a resonable amount of game time?

And the noney was no better (or only slightly better)?
No I think he would have stayed.

BUT
given that he was dropped twice, given limited game time in the GF, and offered a better deal at Collingwood
I see no reason why he should have stayed.
And I have no problem with that.

What I do have a problem with is the 'character assasination' he, his management and his supporters attempted on our Coach, Club and Captain.

X Clarke and Goose both left for better opportunities/deals.
Why is there no angst directed towards them?

An honest answer is probably that most didnt care they left. Obviously a lot did care about Ball leaving.

[Mr Magic]

When he was dropped the second time I think he realised he was in trouble at the Saints and rightly so. His manager as he should looks around and finds one offer from Collinwood. Have no idea of the timetable just that he wasnt getting a game late in the season. As you seem to have things in order you can tell me what is truely correct. I will ask you a question. Do you think Bally would have left if RL had complete faith in him and he was never omitted and played a resonable amount of game time?

And the noney was no better (or only slightly better)?
No I think he would have stayed.

BUT
given that he was dropped twice, given limited game time in the GF, and offered a better deal at Collingwood
I see no reason why he should have stayed.
And I have no problem with that.

What I do have a problem with is the 'character assasination' he, his management and his supporters attempted on our Coach, Club and Captain.

X Clarke and Goose both left for better opportunities/deals.
Why is there no angst directed towards them?

An honest answer is probably that most didnt care they left. Obviously a lot did care about Ball leaving.

I think it was the manner of how he left.
The daily potshots during Trade Week at the Club and coach were very disrespectful.

The point I have been trying to make is that I reckon most (including me) would understand him leaving for a much bigger pay packet.

Will Geelong supporters seriously expect Gary Ablett should take 500k pa less and stay at sleepy hollow rather than go to Gold Coast?

Well, Ball's alleged pay packet difference is a similar percentage (although the dollars are greater with Ablett).

[joffaboy]

An honest answer is probably that most didnt care they left. Obviously a lot did care about Ball leaving.

Wouldn't it be more that Goose and X went with the blessing of the club.

I seem to remember plenty of angst about them going, especially Goose (and there still is).

[Saintsfan]

An honest answer is probably that most didnt care they left. Obviously a lot did care about Ball leaving.

Wouldn't it be more that Goose and X went with the blessing of the club.

I seem to remember plenty of angst about them going, especially Goose (and there still is).

Because they are replaceable and Luke Ball offers something that we need (needed or whatever). An insider midfielder who can get it and give it to someone who can kick.

[plugger66]

An honest answer is probably that most didnt care they left. Obviously a lot did care about Ball leaving.

Wouldn't it be more that Goose and X went with the blessing of the club.

I seem to remember plenty of angst about them going, especially Goose (and there still is).

There is few but most on here didnt care IMO before he left. Obviously those great hindsight judges care more now. You also need to remember we let those 2 go for nothing where as we wanted to get something more than the Pies were prepared to offer, for Bally. That is always going to upset our fans that we got nothing for him.

The thing that upsets me most about how people now talk about Ball ,not you, now being a hack. Those same people last year would have been argueing that Bally is a great player and a great bloke. This guy bled for the club for 8 years, won a B&F when his body was good and was a captain and leader of the club. He decided to move on and maybe I need to as well.

[MCG-Unit]

[
It's become tiresome how some supporters need to constantly downplay his output at the Saints and now - but inflate whatever salary he supposedly was/is on.........easy then to say he is responsible for his own villain status

What's to discuss?
It has been widely reprted that he was on, in the last year of a backended contract, 600kpa
It ahs been widely reported that St Kilda offered him 1 million over 3 years for his new deal.

It was reported that COllingwood offered him 500k pa
He declared a salary figure of 500k pa when he nominated for the draft.
It has been widely reported that his deal at COllingwood is 500k pa for the fiorst 2 years and the third year to be negotiated.

What's so difficult to understand?

He's on a better deal at Collingwood that what was offered at the Saints.
Hell, If I was a player I would go with that much differnece between the offers.

But I would have the grace to go respectfully, like X, appreciative of what St Kilda had done for me (and I for them) adn I wouldn't be making up excuses on a daily basis to justify my logical decision.

I don't believe anybody begrudges Ball the ability to maximize his earning potential in a career that may not last too long.
Some/many are upset at the way he went about it - that's all.

We've had many players over the years leave us for a variety of reasons (including more money).
I don't recall the same angst about Hall, Everitt
or anybody else in the past 15 years, except for Joel Smith.

Ball's 2009 salary may have been reported as $600k - but how do we know that's right ? It would have to have been a back-ended contract to be anywhere near that IMO

I'm inclined to believe the Saints did offer him $1M over 3 years.....The only figure I'm sure of is the Collingwood $500K for the first 2 years - he declared that in his draft nomination

He may not even be on that - Collingwood have to declare it in the 2010 SC though.

Where has he taken potshots at the club ? I haven't heard anywhere where he bagged the club
The only thing I read was either after the Trade period or the ND - that he was sick of seeing his ugly head in the papers.

Do you mean when someone - speaking on Ball's behalf - said his situation had become untennable at the footy club, is that the disrespect you refer to

[Mr Magic]

[

Do you mean when someone - speaking on Ball's behalf - said his situation had become untennable at the footy club, is that the disrespect you refer to

Yes,
Have you forgotten the daily pronouncements by Ball's manager/camp on their raison du jour for him wanting out.
And do you think he didn't approve of what was being said on his behalf?

I'm not sure why you'd ask about the 600k being the final year of a back-ended contract - it's mentioned in every post where I discuss his contract. It's not like I've been trying to hide that as an 'uncomfortable' fact.

In the end you can believe what you want to, as can I.
You obviously choose to believe that money had little to do with him leaving, whereas I feel it was much more important in his initial thinking.

Do you believe he would have left St Kilda if we had offered him 500k pa and Collingwood only 350k?

BTW, that's the bs line his management and Collingwood were trying to peddle - that he was playing for less at Collingwood than at St Kilda.
Do you believe that too?

[Dr Spaceman]

By the way got 5 votes from the coaches on Friday. Equal second best on the ground. Not bad for a bench warmer.

Should be a big chance of taking out the Churchill award.

Oops, that’s Rugby League!