The nagging question re: lyon

[gringo]

Ross Lyon comes from the Paul Roos school of coaching - play your game well and do all the fundamentals well and the rest takes care of its self. When the opposition gets on top you dont panic you keep focused on what you are doing and learn by what went wrong. This is a strength and a weakness, it worked at Sydney for a long time, they would just keep working away until they rolled the opposition. It is a little inflexible but also keeps everone knowing what they need to do.

Thats why Barry Hall already looks better, he is given less instruction and is given a license to create. He is not just another roll player. It can really work for people with less ego but can stifle more creative footballers.

[ace]

so much so that on one occasion it took Taylor dragging him down with a hand on the shoulder while Scarlett jumped into him without any eye for the ball, front on, in the goal square, deep into the last quarter which would have put ST KILDA a goal ahead,........ umpire calls play on, obvious free kick not paid,

When we did break clear Schnieder had his jumped pulled into the Richmond Social Club while umpire Ryan with a perfect view five metres away, called play on, javascript:emoticon(':shock:') Ryan grew up in the Geelong area, supporting Geelong as a kid, still quite young is umpire Ryan and obviously still loves his catters

It is bad enough that we have to suffer Shaun Ryan in a Grand final but do we really need to have Heath Ryan on the umpires panel as well.

[fingers]

This is a great thread - thanks.

I like and believe in his approach. Not because it's his or because it's the Saints but in my experience in coaching (not football) reactive changes are short term, and may be used to address a particular weakness at a particular time.

Structure has to be the foundation. It's one thing to ask a player to do something differently within a structure, it's another to change the structure.

I like the first. It gives players belief, understanding, and clarity. It's a long term approach.

[saintsRrising]

I cannot grant the premise of any of the flaws I've seen thrown up in this thread:

1) Lyon doesn't implement in-game changes? Maybe not in a NAB cup game, but he's made matchup changes since day 1, made setup moves such as Goddard at FF just to give matchup headaches to the opposition, we saw Zac Dawson kick the winning goal in a game last year. We haven't plan B'd anyone since '08... but we were 20-2 last year, why would we have plan B'd anyone?

2) Too much reliance on Reiwoldt? Nick Reiwoldt is one of the top 5 guys in the comp. You don't stop him, you just try to contain him. As a coach, you either understand that when he's on the ground he's going to command the ball a lot no matter what you do, or you end up working against him - and your team.

Do players kick to him when there are better options? Yes, of course they do. That's an issue that comes with having a great CHF. I'd rather have the problem that not.

3) While the players are going to give effort in any game, your coaching dept isn't going to play all their cards in a NAB cup game. They don't necessarily have solutions to everything, but if they've got a better solution to man-on-man than we saw in that game, it now gets a 1/4s free use when we play the Dogs. If they don't, they now have something to work on.

One of the few sensible posts in this thread.

Poor kicking in 85% of the GF is what cost us a flag .

As for Lyon's coaching our success last year was all due to gameplan, structures, workrate and commitment.

In 2009 we saw probably the best TEAM football in the history of the AFL...all due to good coaching.


The Saints won close games and weathered assaults, and had come from behind wins...all due to team football and faith in their gameplan.

Some may lust for a coach that makes magical moves.

I prefer a coach that has drilled the Saints into a unit that can strangle opponents.

The players have faith in the gameplan and that it will triumph more often than not. Sure moves a re made from time to time. But success will come through system and sticking to it rather than by a coach trying to wave a magic wand in a game. A gameplan that continues to be fine-tuned and progressed.

As to bomb it to Roo....Lyon has been trialing various players and structures in the forward lie since he arrived and has now established Kois as another key marking target with Roo.

ie Roo, GTrain and Kosi

Roo, Kosi and Charlie Gardiner

Trying Gwilt as a HFF...and late in 2009 Dempster.

This season already we have seen Stanley supposedly a ruckmen being trialled as a forward....


We lost the GF due to Lyon? Spare me, the Saints were what they were in 2009 due to Lyon.

[rodgerfox]

Poor kicking in 85% of the GF is what cost us a flag .

As for Lyon's coaching our success last year was all due to gameplan, structures, workrate and commitment.

In 2009 we saw probably the best TEAM football in the history of the AFL...all due to good coaching.


The Saints won close games and weathered assaults, and had come from behind wins...all due to team football and faith in their gameplan.

Some may lust for a coach that makes magical moves.

I prefer a coach that has drilled the Saints into a unit that can strangle opponents.

The players have faith in the gameplan and that it will triumph more often than not. Sure moves a re made from time to time. But success will come through system and sticking to it rather than by a coach trying to wave a magic wand in a game. A gameplan that continues to be fine-tuned and progressed.

As to bomb it to Roo....Lyon has been trialing various players and structures in the forward lie since he arrived and has now established Kois as another key marking target with Roo.

ie Roo, GTrain and Kosi

Roo, Kosi and Charlie Gardiner

Trying Gwilt as a HFF...and late in 2009 Dempster.

This season already we have seen Stanley supposedly a ruckmen being trialled as a forward....


We lost the GF due to Lyon? Spare me, the Saints were what they were in 2009 due to Lyon.

Oh.
My.
God.

That's a very, very funny post.


"the Saints were what they were in 2009 due to Lyon"

"In 2009 we saw probably the best TEAM football in the history of the AFL...all due to good coaching."


They are some full on Ross-coloured glasses you have.

I reckon even Ross Lyon himself would be embarrassed by that.

[markp]

The first quote is irrefutable... he is the coach, they weren't what they were in spite of him.

The second quote I would imagine refers to Geelong and the Dogs as well... and as the standard goes up every year, hardly an outrageous statement.

[saintsRrising]

Sorry RF, I am unabashed Saint's fans that ATTENDS football games.

I have hardly missed a Melbourne based game in three decades.

For example in 2009 the Crows came to play the Saints chock full of confidence and even installed as favourites by a few football judges.

The way the Saint's applied their TEAM football was a wonder to be behold.
The well drilled Crows players were reduced to headless chooks that gave up the ball as the Saints willed.

They became a rabble...

I go and watch games....and that for example was TEAM football at a level few teams have ever have scaled.


2009 was a stunning year....

[rodgerfox]

Sorry RF, I am unabashed Saint's fans that ATTENDS football games.

I have hardly missed a Melbourne based game in three decades.

For example in 2009 the Crows came to play the Saints chock full of confidence and even installed as favourites by a few football judges.

The way the Saint's applied their TEAM football was a wonder to be behold.
The well drilled Crows players were reduced to headless chooks that gave up the ball as the Saints willed.

They became a rabble...

I go and watch games....and that for example was TEAM football at a level few teams have ever have scaled.


2009 was a stunning year....

Why are you talking about team football in this thread?

[Thinline]

Roger.
What.
An.
Annoying.
Dull.
Painful.
Broken.
Record.
You.
Are.
Please.
Disappear.
For.
Good.
Soon.

[rodgerfox]

The first quote is irrefutable... he is the coach, they weren't what they were in spite of him.

You've got to be kidding me.

So you think the whole 'new modern' football department was a complete waste of time?
And that Ross Lyon alone is THE reason we won 22 games last year?

Come on.



If this is the case, is he THE reason we lost the granny? I guess he'd have to be based on the above logic.

[rodgerfox]

Roger.
What.
An.
Annoying.
Dull.
Painful.
Broken.
Record.
You.
Are.
Please.
Disappear.
For.
Good.
Soon.

?

Broken record? What do you mean by that?

[Thinline]

Lyon.
Voodoo.
Doll.
Your.
Needles.
In.
It.
All.
The.
Goddam.
Time.
PLEASE.
find.
a.
new.
fetish.

[rodgerfox]

Lyon.
Voodoo.
Doll.
Your.
Needles.
In.
It.
All.
The.
Goddam.
Time.
PLEASE.
find.
a.
new.
fetish.

Have you read the OP?

What you rather I talk about in this thread?

[markp]

The first quote is irrefutable... he is the coach, they weren't what they were in spite of him.

You've got to be kidding me.

So you think the whole 'new modern' football department was a complete waste of time?
And that Ross Lyon alone is THE reason we won 22 games last year?

Come on.



If this is the case, is he THE reason we lost the granny? I guess he'd have to be based on the above logic.

Yes, he is THE ONE.

That is what I am saying.

He personally sired and raised all the players, taught them to speak, to walk, to play...... oh, I really cant be bothered.

Enjoy your evening.

Go Saints!...

[saintsRrising]

Why are you talking about team football in this thread?

Because Mr Fisherman, Lyon's approach is to triumph by sticking to the gameplan rather than to try and win with one speculative move after another..

Personally I hope that Lyon's sticks with his approach rather than trying pull rabbits out of hats to fluke wins.

[johnpeterbudgefanclub]

The thing that stood out for mine reviwing the grand final in my head plus sat nights game,is lyon's inability to make quick re-active changes to adjust the line up during games. The best tactics and moves seem to come via long term game play practice (lyon cage etc.) or pregame tactics (BJ as a forward against the eagles, roo to start on the wing on saturday night).

So my question is, can lyon learn the tricks to be able to change up a line up during the game to plug holes or create a mis-match. Say BJ is being tagged by a short tagger, could be make the move of playing him one out in the goal square and open up the 50? Could he move mini down back in a shut down role and perhaps move raph forward to use the open space.

Thoughts?

Fair post.

The way the game is played nowadays is that the team is basically picked for whoever the opposition is that week. The above scenario is all good and well against how many of the 15 sides? Every side on their merits me thinks.

Just my 1.5 cents.

[Milan Faletic]

The thing that stood out for mine reviwing the grand final in my head plus sat nights game,is lyon's inability to make quick re-active changes to adjust the line up during games. The best tactics and moves seem to come via long term game play practice (lyon cage etc.) or pregame tactics (BJ as a forward against the eagles, roo to start on the wing on saturday night).

So my question is, can lyon learn the tricks to be able to change up a line up during the game to plug holes or create a mis-match. Say BJ is being tagged by a short tagger, could be make the move of playing him one out in the goal square and open up the 50? Could he move mini down back in a shut down role and perhaps move raph forward to use the open space.

Thoughts?

"Bomb it to Roo!!"


Sorry, but that appears to be the only card up his sleeve.

Do you honestly believe this?

What did we do in the final against Collingwood when it got tough?

Bombed it to Roo.

What did we do in the Prelim against the Dogs when it got tough?

Bombed it to Roo.

What did Lyon direct the team to do in the last 15 minutes of the GF?

Bomb it to Roo.


It's the only card he has.

It worked against poor matchups for Roo throughout the year, but to try it in the wet, against Geelong was football suicide.

What did we do to get Lenny back into the game once Bartel negated him?

What did we do to stop Mooney's impact?

What did we do to get Kosi into the game?


We bombed it to Roo.



So yes, I do believe this is the only card up the sleeve.

We actually agree on something, Rodger. I think we just needed to finesse the ball to the forward line a few times and we would have won the game. 9 goals a piece a 3/4 time and we just needed a couple of quality entries in our forward 50. I also think that Goddard was a massive loss and could have been the x-factor in the last quarter....but

.....what did Kosi do to get himself in to the game?

We now know that Roo got crunched in the PF by Kosi and had an undisclosed adductor tear and our contested marks for the GF were not worth mentioning. Kosi would have known that Roo was struggling and he needed to take the game by the scruff of the neck.

At some stage the players need to take centre stage, so I don't blame Ross Lyon for our loss. The players have to take some responsibility.

[SainterK]

Sigh, can't people have an opinion?

I like Ross, I think he will be the one to coach us to our new grand final, think he deserves to.

However, this would be the thread that someone could bring up what they think of the coaching good bad or otherwise, surely? We managed three pages with people being respected for their differing opinions.

Even some of the more hardened critics were moving on from the GF event itself, to expand views on what they think needs to change in 2010.

It's opinion!

Some of the more loyal Ross supporters confirmed their loyalty, don't need to be ridiculed either.

It's opinion!

BTW, congrats on passing 6500 posts Rodger you 'casual observer' of the game you

[johnpeterbudgefanclub]

BTW, congrats on passing 6500 posts Rodger you 'casual observer' of the game you

Well for an opposition poster I reckon 1158 posts isn't too bad.

[n1ck]

BTW, congrats on passing 6500 posts Rodger you 'casual observer' of the game you

Well for an opposition poster I reckon 1158 posts isn't too bad.

but 1159 is terrible.

[Teflon]

Ross Lyon comes from the Paul Roos school of coaching - play your game well and do all the fundamentals well and the rest takes care of its self. When the opposition gets on top you dont panic you keep focused on what you are doing and learn by what went wrong. This is a strength and a weakness, it worked at Sydney for a long time, they would just keep working away until they rolled the opposition. It is a little inflexible but also keeps everone knowing what they need to do.

Thats why Barry Hall already looks better, he is given less instruction and is given a license to create. He is not just another roll player. It can really work for people with less ego but can stifle more creative footballers.

To me its the 80/20 scenario....hopefully 90/10....I mean if we get 80/90% of the players heading in the same direction 90% of the time with true discipline to team structure/task then Lyons game plan has shown...more often than not we win....

We lost 3 games last year....yep one was GF and its the biggie.....but I didnt see our structures crumble......I saw players not take their chances...chances the game plan helped provide...

Ross Lyon is a good coach - most good footy observers know this and acknowledge it....

[barks4eva]

Poor kicking in 85% of the GF is what cost us a flag .

As for Lyon's coaching our success last year was all due to gameplan, structures, workrate and commitment.

In 2009 we saw probably the best TEAM football in the history of the AFL...all due to good coaching.


The Saints won close games and weathered assaults, and had come from behind wins...all due to team football and faith in their gameplan.

Some may lust for a coach that makes magical moves.

I prefer a coach that has drilled the Saints into a unit that can strangle opponents.

The players have faith in the gameplan and that it will triumph more often than not. Sure moves a re made from time to time. But success will come through system and sticking to it rather than by a coach trying to wave a magic wand in a game. A gameplan that continues to be fine-tuned and progressed.

+1

Lyon has implemented a game plan the rest of the competition is now trying to copy, his coaching is not just good, it's spectacular, brilliant and amazing all rolled into one, we're very fortunate to have him!

[IluvHarvey]

This really is a nagging question because one poster wont let it go.
Maybe the thread should be "My Nagging question Re Lyon"

[Thinline]

I'm with you RF. Can't believe we'd just bomb it to Roo. He is after all an absolute spud of a player. Way over rated. Better off using him as some kind of decoy. Better still, put him in the backline. He'd be better off there. And can you imagine the confused looks on all those oppostion coaches faces! That'll get 'em. Yeah. Like Carey or Lockett or Franklin or whoever else. Nah. whatever you do don't RELY on your best players to perform too frequently. No. Roo's NOT an elite player with FREAKISH marking ability and an F1 motor...Nup...shouldn't rely on him or ask him to do what he's paid to do... Better off revolving our forward structure around Koz (who catches one in five) or Milne and Schneider (who are both 4 foot 2). Or Gwilt up there. He sets the world alight in fwd 50 doesn't he? Or Goddard. Man didn't he show red hot WEST COAST a thing or two last season in Rd 4. That'll fix everything. Can't wait to see it. Good thinking RF. You know you can really coach. Freakin' star. Love your work. Keep it up.

[rodgerfox]

Why are you talking about team football in this thread?

Because Mr Fisherman, Lyon's approach is to triumph by sticking to the gameplan rather than to try and win wit one speculative move after another..

Personally I hope that Lyon's sticks with his approach rather than trying pull rabbits out of hats to fluke wins.

Then why did he change tact in the final quarter of the GF?