The nagging question re: lyon

[Solar]

The thing that stood out for mine reviwing the grand final in my head plus sat nights game,is lyon's inability to make quick re-active changes to adjust the line up during games. The best tactics and moves seem to come via long term game play practice (lyon cage etc.) or pregame tactics (BJ as a forward against the eagles, roo to start on the wing on saturday night).

So my question is, can lyon learn the tricks to be able to change up a line up during the game to plug holes or create a mis-match. Say BJ is being tagged by a short tagger, could be make the move of playing him one out in the goal square and open up the 50? Could he move mini down back in a shut down role and perhaps move raph forward to use the open space.

Thoughts?

[SainterK]

Actually Roo on the wing, was Roo's idea

[saint66au]

I wouldnt read too much into Sat nights game in this regard. It was still all about testing things out IMO. If four points were at stake I very much doubt a clearly unfit Zac would have stayed on BBBH in the last quarter..nor Roo started on a HBF

I grant you though Im not a great match-up watcher at games once the bal inbounced. I do take note of who picks up who at the opening bounce and at the odd stoppage, but apart from that I'm more of a big picture watcher.

When someone screams "just kick it long" I already know the names of the 4 opposition players who will be raffle-ing the mark if it happens

[Solar]

I wouldnt read too much into Sat nights game in this regard. It was still all about testing things out IMO. If four points were at stake I very much doubt a clearly unfit Zac would have stayed on BBBH in the last quarter..nor Roo started on a HBF

I grant you though Im not a great match-up watcher at games once the bal inbounced. I do take note of who picks up who at the opening bounce and at the odd stoppage, but apart from that I'm more of a big picture watcher.

When someone screams "just kick it long" I already know the names of the 4 opposition players who will be raffle-ing the mark if it happens

to be fair I struggled watching it on the TV because I do enjoy the match-ups and the tactics. many said that the dogs went man on man when we kicked out and instead of ging back to the huddle or kicking long to the ruckman we continued to work it short like we do against the zone. How much of this is up to the players on the field, how much is pre-game weekly tactics training and how much power does the coach have to change the set-up?

Another example is thompson putting bartel onto lenny after the first quarter yet we barely changed our set-up outside of the match ups set up before the game. Happy to be proved wrong on this but thats my reading of it.

Not a knock, laidley was very good game day but terrible during the week and developing players and game plans. Eade was similar but learnt this over the years. Lyon seems the opposite and does all this homework during the week and backs his plans and players... doesn't always work and grand finals are usually won by the team flexible enough to create something that works on the day (sheedy was a master of this).....

Will be interested how the first month goes without chips who is central to our backline.

[rodgerfox]

The thing that stood out for mine reviwing the grand final in my head plus sat nights game,is lyon's inability to make quick re-active changes to adjust the line up during games. The best tactics and moves seem to come via long term game play practice (lyon cage etc.) or pregame tactics (BJ as a forward against the eagles, roo to start on the wing on saturday night).

So my question is, can lyon learn the tricks to be able to change up a line up during the game to plug holes or create a mis-match. Say BJ is being tagged by a short tagger, could be make the move of playing him one out in the goal square and open up the 50? Could he move mini down back in a shut down role and perhaps move raph forward to use the open space.

Thoughts?

"Bomb it to Roo!!"


Sorry, but that appears to be the only card up his sleeve.

[borderbarry]

Dont know how hard Ross was trying to win on Saturday night....
In the GF, Roo was injured when he landed awkwardly early, and struggled for the rest of the game. Raph was injured before half time, and struggled for ther rest of the game. BJ was injured when he broke his collar bone about 3/4 time, and struggled for the rest of the game. I dont think Ross had a lot of moves left late in the game.

[SainterK]

The thing that stood out for mine reviwing the grand final in my head plus sat nights game,is lyon's inability to make quick re-active changes to adjust the line up during games. The best tactics and moves seem to come via long term game play practice (lyon cage etc.) or pregame tactics (BJ as a forward against the eagles, roo to start on the wing on saturday night).

So my question is, can lyon learn the tricks to be able to change up a line up during the game to plug holes or create a mis-match. Say BJ is being tagged by a short tagger, could be make the move of playing him one out in the goal square and open up the 50? Could he move mini down back in a shut down role and perhaps move raph forward to use the open space.

Thoughts?

"Bomb it to Roo!!"


Sorry, but that appears to be the only card up his sleeve.

See I don't agree with you there...

It's a combination of midifielders opting to kick it to Roo when perhaps they could find an alternative target or even have a shot themselves, especially if the game has dictated that he is going to have alot of company.

There is the other issue is Roo trying to be everywhere, be in every marking contest, and kick every goal. It's because he is a champion of course, but he needs to also learn to judge when to perhaps share the load a little more.

I think Roo actually made life a little harder in the forward line on Saturday night, just my opinion though, and hey I might even get flamed for it

[borderbarry]

You wont get flamed from me. As I see it, Roo too often goes to the goal square. He is CHF, not FF. No wonder he occasionally gets crunched by Kosi.

[barks4eva]

The thing that stood out for mine reviwing the grand final in my head plus sat nights game,is lyon's inability to make quick re-active changes to adjust the line up during games. The best tactics and moves seem to come via long term game play practice (lyon cage etc.) or pregame tactics (BJ as a forward against the eagles, roo to start on the wing on saturday night).

So my question is, can lyon learn the tricks to be able to change up a line up during the game to plug holes or create a mis-match. Say BJ is being tagged by a short tagger, could be make the move of playing him one out in the goal square and open up the 50? Could he move mini down back in a shut down role and perhaps move raph forward to use the open space.

Thoughts?

"Bomb it to Roo!!"


Sorry, but that appears to be the only card up his sleeve.

Just to clear up your confusion, this thread is about Ross Lyon, not Grant Thomas!

[IluvHarvey]

The thing that stood out for mine reviwing the grand final in my head plus sat nights game,is lyon's inability to make quick re-active changes to adjust the line up during games. The best tactics and moves seem to come via long term game play practice (lyon cage etc.) or pregame tactics (BJ as a forward against the eagles, roo to start on the wing on saturday night).

So my question is, can lyon learn the tricks to be able to change up a line up during the game to plug holes or create a mis-match. Say BJ is being tagged by a short tagger, could be make the move of playing him one out in the goal square and open up the 50? Could he move mini down back in a shut down role and perhaps move raph forward to use the open space.

Thoughts?

"Bomb it to Roo!!"


Sorry, but that appears to be the only card up his sleeve.

Do you honestly believe this?
Because our last coaches game plan was kick it long and quick and hope Fraser can outsmart his oponent.

[rodgerfox]

The thing that stood out for mine reviwing the grand final in my head plus sat nights game,is lyon's inability to make quick re-active changes to adjust the line up during games. The best tactics and moves seem to come via long term game play practice (lyon cage etc.) or pregame tactics (BJ as a forward against the eagles, roo to start on the wing on saturday night).

So my question is, can lyon learn the tricks to be able to change up a line up during the game to plug holes or create a mis-match. Say BJ is being tagged by a short tagger, could be make the move of playing him one out in the goal square and open up the 50? Could he move mini down back in a shut down role and perhaps move raph forward to use the open space.

Thoughts?

"Bomb it to Roo!!"


Sorry, but that appears to be the only card up his sleeve.

Do you honestly believe this?

What did we do in the final against Collingwood when it got tough?

Bombed it to Roo.

What did we do in the Prelim against the Dogs when it got tough?

Bombed it to Roo.

What did Lyon direct the team to do in the last 15 minutes of the GF?

Bomb it to Roo.


It's the only card he has.

It worked against poor matchups for Roo throughout the year, but to try it in the wet, against Geelong was football suicide.

What did we do to get Lenny back into the game once Bartel negated him?

What did we do to stop Mooney's impact?

What did we do to get Kosi into the game?


We bombed it to Roo.



So yes, I do believe this is the only card up the sleeve.

[SainterK]

Yes, yes....I understand the point you are trying to make.

I just want to know how do you know Ross is directing this, and it's not players instinctive behaviour?

[rodgerfox]

Do you honestly believe this?
Because our last coaches game plan was kick it long and quick and hope Fraser can outsmart his oponent.

I have no idea why you want to talk about previous coaches in this context, but seeing as you've raised it....

We were never going to win a flag with only 1 or 2 people kicking the goals.

Never.

When we had Guerra, Milne, Kosi, Hamill and Roo kicking goals we were very hard to contain.

When we just had Roo and Gehrig kicking the goals - we'd win games sure, but were never going to win the flag.

We didn't build solely around Gehrig at all. We had Roo, Hamill, Milne, Guerra (for a year), Kosi all as goal kickers.
When Hamill went down, even Voss was tried as an extra target. It was injuries that left us with few targets up forward.


Modern flags are never won by 1 or 2 guys kicking all your goals.

Modern flags are never won off one person's boot.

Ross Lyon tried to do this. And it failed. He should have known better - and frankly he panicked.

[IluvHarvey]

What did we do in the final against Collingwood when it got tough?

Bombed it to Roo.

Why wouldn't you the man was on fire that day everything he did turned to gold...........but my question is how do you know that was the game plan?

What did we do in the Prelim against the Dogs when it got tough?

Bombed it to Roo.

Disagree here yes Roo pretty much won the game for us but maybe you should watch the game again if you think we were too Roo focused at the end.

What did Lyon direct the team to do in the last 15 minutes of the GF?

Bomb it to Roo.

Did he? Where is this stated? The last 15 minutes were pretty frantic. Imagine you are a St Kilda mid and you have the ball with 5 mins to go in GF. You see Roo (who was the best player in the AFL all season) calling for it. What would you do? At that stage the game was desperate it wouldn't have made a difference what the game plan was you would want the ball in your best players hands whether the Coach insisted on it or not.

What did we do to get Lenny back into the game once Bartel negated him?

What did we do to stop Mooney's impact?

What did we do to get Kosi into the game?


We bombed it to Roo.

Now that doesn't even makes sense!

You're better than that!!

[rodgerfox]

Yes, yes....I understand the point you are trying to make.

I just want to know how do you know Ross is directing this, and it's not players instinctive behaviour?

Two things....

Firstly, he said after the GF that he instructed the team to bomb it long midway through the last quarter. To 'put them under pressure'.
What happened?
Naturally it opened the game up and they scored and won.

Geelong thrive on this. They protect the 'hot spot' like no other team ever has. They have 4 men up, and their running defenders down. Harley, and Milburn both contest the pack along with the key defenders which means they very, very rarely give up a pack mark in their defensive 50m.
Then Bartel, Enright, Corey and co. get the nut.

Everyone knows this. You do not bomb it in against Geelong. You just don't.


And secondly, Lyon has been coach for 3 years now. If he hasn't taught the players to do what he wants them to do by now - then he should resign immediately.
3 years and the players still can't do what the coach wants them to do?? Come on.

[SainterK]

Sadly this is were I bow out Rodger, I just can't keep up with you.

If you keep reverting back to the last 15 minutes of the grand final, then we can't have a conversation.

I would like to see our reliance on Roo rectified in 2010, wouldn't you?

Which is why I was trying to discuss Friday night, and offered my opinion that perhaps Roo is guilty a little of trying to dominate the play sometimes, that perhaps our mids need to take more shots.

Come on, at least try to offer some alternatives.

[SydneySainter]

I'm not going to attack or defend Lyon at this stage.

The man is far from perfect, far from a genius and regardless of what ultimately cost us last years, whether it be speed, kicking accuracy or coaching tactics, the game was practically served up on a platter for us during the first half and being senior coach, the buck stops with him.

But, the man has also served a long enough apprenticeship and I think most of us would agree that he has proven himself enough to show that he at least knows enough of his footy that he's worth persisting with at this stage.

Even if this year turns out to be a big disappointment and we don't even make the finals, I'd say he will still remain as senior coach, as I think the board have made it clear enough that they want to put a cease to the revolving door of senior coaches. Love him or hate him, he'll be around for a least a few more years.

[Solar]

Sadly this is were I bow out Rodger, I just can't keep up with you.

If you keep reverting back to the last 15 minutes of the grand final, then we can't have a conversation.

I would like to see our reliance on Roo rectified in 2010, wouldn't you?

Which is why I was trying to discuss Friday night, and offered my opinion that perhaps Roo is guilty a little of trying to dominate the play sometimes, that perhaps our mids need to take more shots.

Come on, at least try to offer some alternatives.

Doesn't this come down to lyons ability on the night/day to adjust the line up to gain some match-ups that will go our way and lead to different avenues to goal? I have enjoyed the use of joey down forward this pre-season and BJ is always an option. But an example I use was shifting raph forward (where he played well in the qualifying final) and move a small back (mini). This would have allowed us to shut down their small forwards a little better and gain another hit up player on a day where the long kick was not working. This is hindsight but lyon s getting paid the big bucks to make these calls. Perhaps tag chapman with lenny for a quarter? Move kosi into the ruck for a period and open up the forward line? We had so much ball and so many inside 50's that we needed to spice it up a little....

Do you trust lyon to gamble during a game?

[rodgerfox]

Sadly this is were I bow out Rodger, I just can't keep up with you.

If you keep reverting back to the last 15 minutes of the grand final, then we can't have a conversation.

I would like to see our reliance on Roo rectified in 2010, wouldn't you?

Which is why I was trying to discuss Friday night, and offered my opinion that perhaps Roo is guilty a little of trying to dominate the play sometimes, that perhaps our mids need to take more shots.

Come on, at least try to offer some alternatives.

The reliance on Roo has to be rectified. But if Lyon can't find ways to win without relying on him - then it won't.

He should be played in the backline in the pre-season or even at Sandy and other methods to goal tried.
Kosi is not a forward. Never has been - never will be. So we're in the shiit until something happens.


The OP made reference to the GF - hence why I raised it.


As for the pre-season comp, I don't even know why people watch it. It holds absolutely no, zero, zilch, none, nada relevance to the real stuff whatsoever.

None.

It's the biggest waste of time in world sport.

[SainterK]

Solar. I think alot of our alternatives were simply young. Good news is that they have been sufficiently groomed, and we will be hopefully seeing much of them this year.

Tom Lynch is likely to play the third forward role IMO, which is a position we have struggled to fill. Won't be easy, and it's certainly not a glamourous position. He will need to work hard and present even when he is not likely to have his lead honoured much, but for those times when the game dictates that we need an alternative, at least we will have one.

Armitage is another addition, a mid that quite likes a goal. Hoping he can contribute a couple, and perhaps inspire the others to follow suit.

Also as a mentioned, we need to limit Roo impacting too close to goal.

Oh, and I do think Kosi will be perfectly capable of FF again this year.

And yep, I would trust Ross to take a gamble in a game, and expect to see more of that this year.

[ace]

You can criticise Lyon all you like but remember if you get rid of him you have to replace him with someone else.

May I suggest that any other coach who is also available will be worse than whatever you think of Lyon.

Just because you don't rate him as THE very best coach in existence does not mean he should be replaced.

We should simply be grateful that we have ONE OF the very best coaches in existence.

[SainterK]

Sadly this is were I bow out Rodger, I just can't keep up with you.

If you keep reverting back to the last 15 minutes of the grand final, then we can't have a conversation.

I would like to see our reliance on Roo rectified in 2010, wouldn't you?

Which is why I was trying to discuss Friday night, and offered my opinion that perhaps Roo is guilty a little of trying to dominate the play sometimes, that perhaps our mids need to take more shots.

Come on, at least try to offer some alternatives.

The reliance on Roo has to be rectified. But if Lyon can't find ways to win without relying on him - then it won't.

He should be played in the backline in the pre-season or even at Sandy and other methods to goal tried.
Kosi is not a forward. Never has been - never will be. So we're in the shiit until something happens.


The OP made reference to the GF - hence why I raised it.


As for the pre-season comp, I don't even know why people watch it. It holds absolutely no, zero, zilch, none, nada relevance to the real stuff whatsoever.

None.

It's the biggest waste of time in world sport.

There you go, you did it

[rodgerfox]

Also as a mentioned, we need to limit Roo impacting too close to goal.

You've got to be careful as clearly Roo is our most potent weapon.

You don't want to limit that potency or reduce it - you want to harness it but at the same time improve potency from other avenues.

The ironic thing is, that without the impact from Roo or Kosi on GF day we still managed plenty of shots at goal. We had actually achieved the perfect balance in finding avenues to goal.

And it resulted in us getting plenty of chances, and resulted in Geelong scratching their heads.......


....for 3 and a half quarters. It was working. We missed goals, but the plan was working and Geelong weren't able to stop it.

So what did we do? Reverted back to the 'bomb it long' plan!


Ok, I promise the forum that's the last I'll mention of it. I still wake up in cold sweats thinking about that coaching blunder and how it cost us a flag.

But I won't mention it again.

[rodgerfox]

You can criticise Lyon all you like but remember if you get rid of him you have to replace him with someone else.

May I suggest that any other coach who is also available will be worse than whatever you think of Lyon.

Just because you don't rate him as THE very best coach in existence does not mean he should be replaced.

We should simply be grateful that we have ONE OF the very best coaches in existence.

Sacking coaches is perilous.

Timing is everything. We are stuck with Lyon until Roo retires or leaves.

The club needs to see it out until it's time to start afresh again.


Hopefully they've made the right call because sacking a coach now is not an option.

[SainterK]

Also as a mentioned, we need to limit Roo impacting too close to goal.

Ok, I promise the forum that's the last I'll mention of it. I still wake up in cold sweats thinking about that coaching blunder and how it cost us a flag.

But I won't mention it again.

You realise, that I will hold you to that?

At least you are finally admitting that you still care, I never believed the 'casual observer' cover anyhow