Good run with injury in '09 no accident

[rodgerfox]

Will it help you find some peace if we replace GOT with COACHED?

Don't know about me finding some peace, but it will gives your's and others' comments a skerrick of sense.

[rodgerfox]

Sometimes the best thing you can do is get out of the way.

Wu Wei... action through non action.

How'd GT fair in that dept?

My understanding is that that is exactly what he did. Hence my original post correcting another poster in relation to this comment.....

"I do think Gt can take some blame for that, how many coaches in the AFL do you know that insist on taking care of the injury/player management side of things?"

If RL does not deliver a flag, regardless of excuses, he will be deemed a failure... just like GT.

I disagree entirely.

Was Robert Harvey a failure?

[SainterK]

Will it help you find some peace if we replace GOT with COACHED?

Don't know about me finding some peace, but it will gives your's and others' comments a skerrick of sense.

I have a question for you then, and it will give your comments a skerrick of sense.

Why are you so ashamed to admit that you care about the Saints, and much?

[markp]

Sometimes the best thing you can do is get out of the way.

Wu Wei... action through non action.

How'd GT fair in that dept?

My understanding is that that is exactly what he did.

Then your understanding does not align with most.

If RL does not deliver a flag, regardless of excuses, he will be deemed a failure... just like GT.

I disagree entirely.

Was Robert Harvey a failure?

Robert Harvey was not our coach, coaches and players are evaluated differently... do people ever talk about Harvey's win/loss ratio?

[joffaboy]

Robert Harvey was not our coach, coaches and players are evaluated differently... do people ever talk about Harvey's win/loss ratio?

RF seems to always want to argue things that are total unrelated to each other.

We are posting about coaches of St.kilda and he brings up a player

Very strange indeed.

[Dr Spaceman]

RL is coach and the Saints got to the GF therefore he got us there.

MT is coach and the Cats got to the GF therefore he got them there.

End of story.

So you don't rate recruitment, list management, fitness, injury management etc. either?

You think in the end, the coach, ahead of the players and all the areas listed above is the one who is in control and overall responsible?

Well using your argument, when Roo kicks a goal it’s not actually Roo kicking it but the guys who recruited him, his management, the fitness guys and injury management team that allows him to get out on the field, his junior coaches, his boot manufacturer, the boot-studder, his folks who fed & sheltered him, the guy who services his car so he can get to the ground……………………..

Silly me, I thought it was the guy wearing #12. They'd better increase the size of the footy record so we can mark the scores accurately

Oops, I said I was going. Now!

[plugger66]

Went to work for a change today and came home and this thread is 7 pages longer. Is it worth reading or should I go and get a Brazillian insead.

[meher baba]

Went to work for a change today and came home and this thread is 7 pages longer. Is it worth reading or should I go and get a Brazillian insead.

Why not do both at the same time?

[White Winmar]

I repeat, in your opinions, what sort of influence has Dave Misson and his fitness staff had on our performance? Why the pessimism about injuries and if you are pessimistic, what evidence do you produce to support your argument? This thread was never meant to be about GT vs. RL. It seems that a few people on here are like the bitter divorcees who just can't get on with their lives. I genuinely respect the opinions of many posters on here and I actively seek your opinions to give me a better understanding of what our fans and members are thinking. The most I can glean from this current kerfuffle is that we are still divided into the RL v. GT camps. Spelling out the bleeding obvious, please move on. At the risk of getting all Churchillian on you, "Never have so many, with so much knowledge and passion, said so much, about so few, who don't matter any more". RIP GT (hopefully, and not in a nasty way. Only as far as St.Kilda FC is concerned). Long live the king, RL and his merry band of premiership bringers. Bring on the 2010 season!

[asiu]

Sometimes the best thing you can do is get out of the way.

Wu Wei... action through non action.

How'd GT fair in that dept?

My understanding is that that is exactly what he did.


theres an interesting point ...gt was always banging on about letting 'others' get on with their jobs

[Dr Spaceman]

Went to work for a change today and came home and this thread is 7 pages longer. Is it worth reading or should I go and get a Brazillian insead.

This thread needs a Brazilian to remove all the fluff

[joffaboy]

Went to work for a change today and came home and this thread is 7 pages longer. Is it worth reading or should I go and get a Brazillian insead.

This thread needs a Brazilian to remove all the fluff

14 pages - lol

RF would be very proud.

Yes P66, read every single page and reap the whirlwind.

[rodgerfox]

Well using your argument, when Roo kicks a goal it’s not actually Roo kicking it but the guys who recruited him, his management, the fitness guys and injury management team that allows him to get out on the field, his junior coaches, his boot manufacturer, the boot-studder, his folks who fed & sheltered him, the guy who services his car so he can get to the ground……………………..

Silly me, I thought it was the guy wearing #12. They'd better increase the size of the footy record so we can mark the scores accurately

Oops, I said I was going. Now!

Nah, I think you've misinterpreted my argument entirely.

Interestingly though, it seems some are arguing that when Roo kicks a goal it is because of Ross Lyon.

[SydneySainter]

Does anyone on here think that we wouldn't have beaten the Swans in the 2005 PF if Sam Fisher, Aaron Hamill and Kosi had been fully fit?

We quite possibly would have. But that's not to say we would have won the flag.

Who's to say that the injuries may not have occured in the prelim if they did play?

If we didn't injuries during the year, would we have finished top 2 and therefore have totally different finals series.

This is why it's a dumb argument.

Too many subjective variables at play.

Even with our injuries leading to the 05 preliminary final, we still had a much classier squad on the paddock than the Swans and in the final quarter they made us look like pretenders.

After frequent suggestions from rogerfox that the 09 playing squad was largely self-coached and that Roo is practically our captain and coach, he never stops reminding us of Lyon's instruction to bomb the ball to the forward line in the final quarter and what a pivotal failure it was. He mentions it so much so that it gets me remembering one moment in the 05 preliminary final. The infamous tummy-punch Hall laid on Goose was followed by one of the worst knee-jerk reactions in the coaching box I have ever witnessed. Goose was taken off Hall immediately and traded places with the G-Train. It was only for a short time, but could we have possibly broadcasted a better sign of intimidation and mental softness?

I'm not saying that cost us the 05 preliminary, but if all RF is doing is drawing 'comparisons' between Thomas and Lyon, then I think that is quite a pivotal one.

[Milton66]

Does anyone on here think that we wouldn't have beaten the Swans in the 2005 PF if Sam Fisher, Aaron Hamill and Kosi had been fully fit?

We quite possibly would have. But that's not to say we would have won the flag.

Who's to say that the injuries may not have occured in the prelim if they did play?

If we didn't injuries during the year, would we have finished top 2 and therefore have totally different finals series.

This is why it's a dumb argument.

Too many subjective variables at play.

Even with our injuries leading to the 05 preliminary final, we still had a much classier squad on the paddock than the Swans and in the final quarter they made us look like pretenders.

After frequent suggestions from rogerfox that the 09 playing squad was largely self-coached and that Roo is practically our captain and coach, he never stops reminding us of Lyon's instruction to bomb the ball to the forward line in the final quarter and what a pivotal failure it was. He mentions it so much so that it gets me remembering one moment in the 05 preliminary final. The infamous tummy-punch Hall laid on Goose was followed by one of the worst knee-jerk reactions in the coaching box I have ever witnessed. Goose was taken off Hall immediately and traded places with the G-Train. It was only for a short time, but could we have possibly broadcasted a better sign of intimidation and mental softness?

I'm not saying that cost us the 05 preliminary, but if all RF is doing is drawing 'comparisons' between Thomas and Lyon, then I think that is quite a pivotal one.

Mate i have no idea who you are... male or female, but I really feel the urge tobuy you abeer when you'r in town.

You post all too infrequently, but gee I admire your work, truly.

[Milton66]

All I can say is that RL gave us a better shot at winning a flag than GT on the basis that we made the GF under RL.

Glad you brought that up again, because I'm yet to get an answer on a question I posed in relation to that very point....

Why did Lyon give us a better shot at it?


We've confirmed that GT controlled everything which made him a monster.

And that Lyon is a hero because he can just focus on coaching.

We've confirmed that he doesn't do the recruiting - just briefs his recruiters as to the type of player he wants.

He doesn't have anything to do with their fitness cause a coach isn't qualified to get involved in this area (although it seems Joffaboy thinks GT should have been keeping records on players' fitness).

So basically he is a match day coach. He has no input into the fitness of players (because this is clearly an area where the coach should butt out of) and he has no influence over the availability of the list.

He just coaches them.


So based on that, why are we saying 'Lyon got us to the GF'?

Why was it so important to hire a boss for him (Drain) if Lyon is responsible for 'getting us to a GF'?


So back to the core of the discussion, please can someone answer these questions for me?

Start with you Joffaboy, you were quite vocal but then managed to sidetrack the discussion just as you were going to answer the above questions that I'd previously asked of you......

Did we make the GF? Yes. Was RL coach? Yes.

On that basis RL got us to the GF, just as Mark Thompson got Geelong to the GF.

It's really quite simply and shouldn't take 13 pages

I guess we can't blame RL for losing the GF then, can we?

After all, he was only a "bit" player.

He told them to kick it to Roo, but it was Roo's fault for not taking a mark.

Correct RF?

Of course you can't solely blame the coach for losing the GF.

You can't solely blame a coach for much at all.


Why do you ask such a stupid question?

Sorry, it just appears that you did with your constant criticism of his game day coaching.

Kindly enlighten me who else was responsible in your opinion... it seems to have slipped my mind.

[Milton66]

Sometimes the best thing you can do is get out of the way.

Wu Wei... action through non action.

How'd GT fair in that dept?

My understanding is that that is exactly what he did.


theres an interesting point ...gt was always banging on about letting 'others' get on with their jobs

Is that the same white GT that some people detest?

Funny tho... some ex players I ahve spoken to say that this wasn't the case.

The words tyrant and dictator came up often.

Perhaps you should chat to Burkie.

[mbogo]

Well we would NOT have won the flag had we had no injuries in the PF in 2005 coz Harves and Gehrig would BOTH have done knees in the GF and GT would have coached like sh!t, the ORACLE just told me.
So it doesn't matter.

[matrix]

14 pages?
14 bloody pages!!??

piss weak....i was expecting at least nearly 20.

[joffaboy]

[ He mentions it so much so that it gets me remembering one moment in the 05 preliminary final. The infamous tummy-punch Hall laid on Goose was followed by one of the worst knee-jerk reactions in the coaching box I have ever witnessed. Goose was taken off Hall immediately and traded places with the G-Train. It was only for a short time, but could we have possibly broadcasted a better sign of intimidation and mental softness?

I'm not saying that cost us the 05 preliminary, but if all RF is doing is drawing 'comparisons' between Thomas and Lyon, then I think that is quite a pivotal one.

O.U.C.H

[Saints43]

The infamous tummy-punch Hall laid on Goose was followed by one of the worst knee-jerk reactions in the coaching box I have ever witnessed. Goose was taken off Hall immediately and traded places with the G-Train. It was only for a short time, but could we have possibly broadcasted a better sign of intimidation and mental softness?

I'm not saying that cost us the 05 preliminary, but if all RF is doing is drawing 'comparisons' between Thomas and Lyon, then I think that is quite a pivotal one.

So assuming that you don't leave Goose lying on the turf (Hall had just kicked a goal unopposed) as Halls' opponent. And Max is playing on O'Loughlin. Gehrig was a proven tall/fast full-back. Who do you put on Hall while Goose recovers?

[Moods]

I have to agree with saints43. Not only did Hall kick a goal straight after belting goose. If memory serves me correct, goose was incapacitated for a short time afterward (and poss kicked another goal shortly after this as well??) In any event Goose had to be moved in my opinion, if only for a short period of time.

Whilst Gehrig is big, strong and fast and a good match up for hall he certainly was no intimidating presence. In fact in terms of physicality during a game, there were few that were softer than the G-Train. That being the case i'm pretty sure he wasn't moved onto Hall to negate Hall's physical presence more the danger he posed left unguarded up forward.

[SydneySainter]

The infamous tummy-punch Hall laid on Goose was followed by one of the worst knee-jerk reactions in the coaching box I have ever witnessed. Goose was taken off Hall immediately and traded places with the G-Train. It was only for a short time, but could we have possibly broadcasted a better sign of intimidation and mental softness?

I'm not saying that cost us the 05 preliminary, but if all RF is doing is drawing 'comparisons' between Thomas and Lyon, then I think that is quite a pivotal one.

So assuming that you don't leave Goose lying on the turf (Hall had just kicked a goal unopposed) as Halls' opponent. And Max is playing on O'Loughlin. Gehrig was a proven tall/fast full-back. Who do you put on Hall while Goose recovers?

Goose recovered quickly enough to pounce on Hall and have a typical push-and-shove with him before he ran to the forward line. You leave Goose on him and show that you are not scared by his dog tactics.

[rodgerfox]

Sorry, it just appears that you did with your constant criticism of his game day coaching.

Kindly enlighten me who else was responsible in your opinion... it seems to have slipped my mind.

Anyone reading my posts with an open mind could not possibly draw that conclusion.

[rodgerfox]

Even with our injuries leading to the 05 preliminary final, we still had a much classier squad on the paddock than the Swans and in the final quarter they made us look like pretenders.

*sigh*

With all due respect, but this comment shows an incredible amount of football naivety.

Ask anyone, especially Ross Lyon, and they will tell you that in a final, your team on paper being 'classier' than your opponent does not matter.

Having an unchanged unit that has played together for 10 weeks against a team that has over the previous month had about 10 changes (including several since that last time they played together) plus several guys carrying serious injuries is a far, far greater advantage than having a 'classier' team on paper.

And I disagree we were classier. Another footy myth that the ignorant footy public swallowed. Sydney had a very, very talented team. Goodes, O'Loughlin, Kirk, O'Keefe, Hall, Ball, Barry etc. etc.

A very, very talented group of players. Roos designed the 'un-talented bunch of battlers' myth the slip under the radar. It worked.

However strangely earlier in the year when they couldn't keep these guys on the park, they couldn't get within 10 goals of us and were a bottom 4 side. Funny that isn't it?

After frequent suggestions from rogerfox that the 09 playing squad was largely self-coached and that Roo is practically our captain and coach, he never stops reminding us of Lyon's instruction to bomb the ball to the forward line in the final quarter and what a pivotal failure it was. He mentions it so much so that it gets me remembering one moment in the 05 preliminary final. The infamous tummy-punch Hall laid on Goose was followed by one of the worst knee-jerk reactions in the coaching box I have ever witnessed. Goose was taken off Hall immediately and traded places with the G-Train. It was only for a short time, but could we have possibly broadcasted a better sign of intimidation and mental softness?

I'm not saying that cost us the 05 preliminary, but if all RF is doing is drawing 'comparisons' between Thomas and Lyon, then I think that is quite a pivotal one.

So you're saying that Thomas may or may not have made an error in the coaches box??

OH MY GOD!!

Stop the press!!!!

WOW!! Keep posting SydneySainter, you're a real newsbreaker!!!



He made plenty of errors in the coaches box. I could name dozens.

I don't understand your point at all?