Good run with injury in '09 no accident

[Moods]

I do think Gt can take some blame for that, how many coaches in the AFL do you know that insist on taking care of the injury/player management side of things?

I must admit I love the way this myth has evolved over the years.


Just for those who are interested in fact....

GT believed that the head coach should sit at the top of the footy dept. Meaning that 'training services' and pretty much everything fell under 'his control'.

This doesn't mean he took players' recovery sessions or mapped out their fitness programs or injury recovery.

He hired and fired the people responsible for this, and they were accountable to him (he set them KPIs in regards to available players and their fitness levels) but he didn't get involved in their space.
He didn't decide if a player was fit to play, he didn't decide if a player on the bench was ready physically to come back on, he didn't get involved in that at all.

He asked the quacks and 'fitness dudes' and 100% took their word.

How do you know that's fact? Were you at the club at the time? I'm not necessarily doubting you, but anyone who is so positive about this must know someone personally or have been there. If that's the case what's wrong with saying you were involved or that you know someone. Most ppl on here don't know each other so why they take what you say as fact.



Now sorry mythologists - but that's fact.

[saintsRrising]

I do think Gt can take some blame for that, how many coaches in the AFL do you know that insist on taking care of the injury/player management side of things?

I must admit I love the way this myth has evolved over the years.


Just for those who are interested in fact....

GT believed that the head coach should sit at the top of the footy dept. Meaning that 'training services' and pretty much everything fell under 'his control'.

This doesn't mean he took players' recovery sessions or mapped out their fitness programs or injury recovery.

He hired and fired the people responsible for this, and they were accountable to him (he set them KPIs in regards to available players and their fitness levels) but he didn't get involved in their space.
He didn't decide if a player was fit to play, he didn't decide if a player on the bench was ready physically to come back on, he didn't get involved in that at all.

He asked the quacks and 'fitness dudes' and 100% took their word.

Now sorry mythologists - but that's fact.

I see Violent Stool the neutral football supporter is twisting the story again.

Posters are not saying that GT individually conducted player conditioning sessions BUT RATHER that he demanded responsibility for it and set-up the department as he wanted it.

In this he clearly failed and that is the only FACT that matters no matter Violent Stool tries to rewrite things.

GT took ownership of player conditioning and FAILED.

Note your own wording..fell under his control.

Well his control of this was a dismal failure and incompetence.

You can attempt to twist the words of other forumites as much as you want, but history shows that our player conditioning in that era was dismal and GT was the person responsible for it...or as you have written the person in control (though out of control would be more apt!!) of it.

[saintsRrising]

He hired and fired the people responsible for this, and they were accountable to him (he set them KPIs in regards to available players and their fitness levels) but he didn't get involved in their space.

Ok so VS acknowledges that the "training Services" staff were all placed there by GT.

So the blind leading the blind eh as according to you GT set the KPIs....

He asked the quacks and 'fitness dudes' and 100% took their word.

- but that's fact.

Oh now they are quacks and "fitness" dudes.

Not saying they were not, but you have just acknowledged that that GT hired and fired them, set the KPI's etc....so that means GT as you have acknowledged hired and fired people that he had no expertise in doing so....and established their required performance again without expertise in doing so.

No wonder that "Training Services" was such a mess in that period.

[rodgerfox]

He hired and fired the people responsible for this, and they were accountable to him (he set them KPIs in regards to available players and their fitness levels) but he didn't get involved in their space.

Ok so VS acknowledges that the "training Services" staff were all placed there by GT.

So the blind leading the blind eh as according to you GT set the KPIs....

He asked the quacks and 'fitness dudes' and 100% took their word.

- but that's fact.

Oh now they are quacks and "fitness" dudes.

Not saying they were not, but you have just acknowledged that that GT hired and fired them, set the KPI's etc....so that means GT as you have acknowledged hired and fired people that he had no expertise in doing so....and established their required performance again without expertise in doing so.

No wonder that "Training Services" was such a mess in that period.

??

GT set KPIs such as '90% of players at 90% fitness before Rd1'.

As a an AFL football coach, I don't think that's too far fetched or requires a degree in sports science to set such targets. Do you?


I do find your views odd though - because you've been pretty vocal in how wonderful Ross Lyon was for hiring Misson.

Why is Lyon better credentialed to hire fitness dudes?

Or did Lyon have nothing to do with it? If so, why is he getting so much credit for it?

Seems strange to me.



The other thing I find odd, is your strong words about GT having control over the Training Services area.
And the fact it didn't work out, meant he 'failed miserably'.

So let me ask you a question....

On match day, let's say Grand Final Day, The head coach naturally assumes full control over the goings on?
So what if things that happen don't go to plan?

What if the team is in front in the final quarter, then a decision by the coach leads to a loss - does this mean the coach has failed miserably?

Does this mean because the players that he 'hired and fired' on the ground didn't kick straight (or get a kick), that he failed miserably in the area of Head Coach?

Surely based on your logic, if you're honest (which frankly you're not that often) this means Ross Lyon has failed miserably as coach?

[SainterK]

Are we talking about RL and his performance as a coach at the GF, what an original discussion...can I join in?

[Milton66]

RL admitted after that he may have done things differently. GT still hasn't. In fact, he stated that training services were over rated.

All I can say it that there appeared to be a greater "revolving door" under GT when it came to hiring and firing staff.

Good bad or indifferent... if the coach takes responsibility for these decisions then the buck stops with them IMO.

Why is it so hard for people to just accept that things have gone right and are improving... regardless of what the previous regime did?

BTW, anyone can set KPI's, but you need the right people in your team to make them a reality.

[rodgerfox]

Are we talking about RL and his performance as a coach at the GF, what an original discussion...can I join in?

I'm just trying to get some perspective as I find this baffling.

GT 'controls' an area and it doesn't result in success = miserable failure.

Lyon 'controls' an area and it doesn't result in success = best coach in the comp and seemingly the 2nd coming of Christ.


Strange world is Saintsational.

[rodgerfox]

BTW, anyone can set KPI's, but you need the right people in your team to make them a reality.

So I guess the excuse of 'if we had have kicked straight none of the boggling coaching decisions would have mattered anyway' line is void?

Lyon set the KPIs, and his men didn't produce.

He's responsible. Accountable. And therefore failed miserably.

Based on this apparent mindset of the forum majority, due to this miserable failure he should be hog-tied and thrown in the Yarra.

[saintsRrising]

Why is Lyon better credentialed to hire fitness dudes?

Who said he was?

You know full well that Lyon did not hire Misson. You are again just playing your petter RF/VS games.

You know full well that a HUGE reason to ditch GT was to cast off the GT system of "management" (or rather mismanagement).

Misson was appointed after the then Board had Ross Smith (who is you know a sport scientist) & others review what was required for our player Conditioning Department.

So rather than the blind leading the blind the Club had those that understood what was require investigate it and to make recommendations.

Or did Lyon have nothing to do with it? If so, why is he getting so much credit for it?

Seems strange to me.


?

Again you know full well that Lyon:

1/ Demanded of the previous Board to fix the "meat & potatoes". This led to Ross Smith being appointed as step 1. and ultimately to Misson, the new club Doc and others being appointed.
2/ Had the good sense to stick to coaching.

No doubt that Misson knew he could work well with Lyon was factor as well.

[joffaboy]

Lyon 'controls' an area and it doesn't result in success = best coach in the comp and seemingly the 2nd coming of Christ.


Strange world is Saintsational.

Hyperbole and fatuous nonsense.

Please post the link where this was stated by anyone here.

Fair Dinkum - stop your hysterical BS Violent Stood/Rodger Fox, it makes your baiting and trolling look even sillier than usual.

[saintsRrising]

I do find your views odd though - because you've been pretty vocal in how wonderful Ross Lyon was for hiring Misson.

Have I now?

When and where?

Please post these.

I do realise that you are once again just making things up.

[saintsRrising]

So Rodgerfox/Stool...did you LIE about being a neutral support...or did you lie about being a St Kilda Supporter?

You have claimed to be both..so you have to be lie-ing about at least one.

Stop avoiding the question. Which one was the lie?

[rodgerfox]

Hmmm, this is getting stranger and stranger.


So Lyon has no responsiblity for the fitness of the availability of the list.

He doesn't do recruitment either.


So what exactly is it that Ross Lyon has done that makes him so wonderful?

[joffaboy]

You know full well that a HUGE reason to ditch GT was to cast off the GT system of "management" (or rather mismanagement).

The mismanagement was appalling, especially his mismanagement of training services. Caused terrible problems with the list fitness

1/ Demanded of the previous Board to fix the "meat & potatoes". This led to Ross Smith being appointed as step 1. and ultimately to Misson, the new club Doc and others being appointed.

Wasn't this after the fitness and conditioning staff (pretty sure it was Mission) found there was NO data on any of the players regarding conditioning under the Grant Thomas regime?

What appalling mismanagement by Thomas. Absolutely incompetent and appalling. He should have been dismissed for that alone, let alone the plethora of other issues that caused his demise.

No doubt that Misson knew he could work well with Lyon was factor as well.

And what a challenge at the Saints. The list in appalling physical shape, soft tissues injuies in plague proportions, no data on the players conditioning management.

With this patetic amateur, and incompetent position at the start, Misson and co have done an extraordinary job.

Well done Misson and co, bringing a professional approach to the job of keeping the players fit.

[joffaboy]

So what exactly is it that Ross Lyon has done that makes him so wonderful?

Gave us a shot at a flag, something your hero Thomas couldn't NEVER do.

Lyon has achieved more at the Saints in the last two years that Thomas EVER did.

F.A.C.T.

[saintsRrising]

Hmmm, this is getting stranger and stranger.

Only to you. To everyone else it is how a football club should be run.

So Lyon has no responsiblity for the fitness of the availability of the list.

He doesn't do recruitment either.


So what exactly is it that Ross Lyon has done that makes him so wonderful?

Well to you this will be a mystery.

It is called coaching.

You know working out tactics, game plans, developing your players...

Briefing your Recruitment Staff on the type of players you require etc etc...



Rather than dabbling in player contracts, conditioning, media and all the other no-coaching matters that GT as a part-time coach dabbled in....

Best thing that happened to Bomber Thompson was being narrowed back to a just being a coach. As per his TV interview he was dead against it at the time, but in hindsight it he agreed that it was the best move.

[rodgerfox]

So what exactly is it that Ross Lyon has done that makes him so wonderful?

Gave us a shot at a flag, something your hero Thomas couldn't NEVER do.

Lyon has achieved more at the Saints in the last two years that Thomas EVER did.

F.A.C.T.

How did Lyon give us a shot at a flag?

[rodgerfox]

Again you know full well that Lyon:

1/ Demanded of the previous Board to fix the "meat & potatoes". This led to Ross Smith being appointed as step 1. and ultimately to Misson, the new club Doc and others being appointed.
2/ Had the good sense to stick to coaching.

No doubt that Misson knew he could work well with Lyon was factor as well.

Don't point 1 and point 2 kind of contradict each other??

[rodgerfox]

Wasn't this after the fitness and conditioning staff (pretty sure it was Mission) found there was NO data on any of the players regarding conditioning under the Grant Thomas regime?

What appalling mismanagement by Thomas. Absolutely incompetent and appalling. He should have been dismissed for that alone, let alone the plethora of other issues that caused his demise.

Do you think Thomas should have been keeping records on players' fitness?

Sounds odd to me for a senior coach to be involved in that space at all. Surely that's the responsibility of the fitness dudes?

[saintsRrising]

So Rodgerfox/Stool...did you LIE about being a neutral support...or did you lie about being a St Kilda Supporter?

You have claimed to be both..so you have to be lie-ing about at least one.

Stop avoiding the question. Which one was the lie?

We are waiting...

[rodgerfox]

It is called coaching.

You know working out tactics, game plans, developing your players...

Hmmm.

So if tactics fail, and you lose a match does that mean he has failed at his one and only job?

Interesting.

Briefing your Recruitment Staff on the type of players you require etc etc...

Briefing them? So you don't have any control over the players themselves? Just a briefing as to type of player that you want?

So recruiting guys like Jones, King, Gardiner etc. had nothing to do with Lyon? He just 'briefed' his recruiting guys and they went and picked up these players?


I'm starting to think we don't really need a head coach at all. They don't seem to do much - and what they do, when they don't do it well, no one seems to be too bothered by it!

[rodgerfox]

So Rodgerfox/Stool...did you LIE about being a neutral support...or did you lie about being a St Kilda Supporter?

You have claimed to be both..so you have to be lie-ing about at least one.

Stop avoiding the question. Which one was the lie?

We are waiting...

Waiting for what?

I thought you were talking to this Violent Stool guy.

[SainterK]

Hmmm, this is getting stranger and stranger.


So Lyon has no responsiblity for the fitness of the availability of the list.

He doesn't do recruitment either.


So what exactly is it that Ross Lyon has done that makes him so wonderful?

Because thinking Ross Lyon is a good coach is an exclusive view only held by St Kilda supporters?

[Milton66]

Ross Lyon was unlucky on GF day.

[Con Gorozidis]

Maybe if we kicked 14.9 instead of 9.14, we would be raving about the great year. From memory, I don't think RL had those shots at goal.

no doubt we could have won with those friggin shots! but our last quarter was still very weary...