Ross cant do much more than this???

[I Love Peter Kiel]

Good points, dartos.

It's obvious that not all trades can work to every clubs' advantage! Each club tries to trade for something better than they have. They are taking a calculated risk to change their playing list..they don't care if it adversely affects the other club's playing list. Logic dictates that someone has to "lose out". Of course no club will deal knowing they will lose out...this happens when their calculated risk doesn't come through. It's like winning at the race track. At least one punter has to lose in order for you to win money!

I'll say it again...did you know that Ge%long in the wake of the '08 defeat were desperate to get AL? Unfortunately/fortunately they couldn't swing the deal.

[I Love Peter Kiel]

For the pedants out there: I meant "every club's advantage".

[SydneySainter]

I'll say it again...did you know that Ge%long in the wake of the '08 defeat were desperate to get AL? Unfortunately/fortunately they couldn't swing the deal.

That's right. When Lovett was in red hot form earlier in the season, Sheanan declared that if the Cat's had gotten Lovett, they would have had the best midfield in the comp (if they didn't already). Sydney were also keen as mustard and isn't Paul Roos the one who wrote the book on the 'no dick head' policy?

So for those who keep flogging these 'it was 1000/1 chance he was ever going to work out' or 'I could have told you it was going to end in tears' or 'it wasn't a risk, it was plain stupidity', it's nothing more than hypocritical crap.

[rodgerfox]

PS I was not trying to trivialise the charge, just pointing out something none of you have thought of. That's killing two birds with one stone: getting one back at someone you hate and removing an obstacle to your team (C&ll*ngwo&d) winning a flag.

None of us thought of it as it simply way way too ridiculous.

Concur.

[plugger66]

"allegedly raped a woman as she slept".

The dictionary describes rape as the act forcing a woman to have sexual intercourse against her will.

Call me sexist or whatever (which I am not) but I am one of those in our community who has trouble with what is being described here.

As a more mature male (in age anyway), and with 3 sons (and 2 daughters), I have counselled my sons that "No is no - no matter when no is said because if you do not respect the word no whenever it is said and immediately it is said you will find yourself in the deepest of trouble - trouble which will haunt you for the rest of your life. So be warned".

For my daughters the message has always been more simple. "Do not put yourself in a compromised position because your reputation is everything. If you get the wrong reputation that reputation will precede you to your continuing detriment because people being people, they talk".

I would not think that the education I have given my children in these matters differs from what is given in most homes in our Country.

My daughters and my wife have commented on what is being reported.

And their comments go straight to "a woman was allegedly raped as she slept".

They want to know how a woman can be awoken by a single man in the act of having sexual intercourse with her.

And they have aroused my curosity.

To my sons I have just repeated the lesson.

"No" is "no" the instant it is said - no matter anything else.

Maybe the story isnt quite right or just maybe it is true. Maybe she was very pissed or had some drugs or maybe her drink was spiked and just maybe it is completely true. Unless you were there and involved you wouldnt know but my guess is the reporter has an in with either the club or the cops so i will go with their story rather than you who know no facts what so ever. And yes it was a sexist statement. No wonder it is hard to prove rape with people like yourself on juries.

[Hurricane]

I hate to play devils advocate here but what happens if Andrew Lovett is innocent?

We all remember the saga for 2004 and the damage it did to the club and players reputations and the alleged victims were proven to be nothing but money chasing liars.

Andrew Lovett had been in the media constantly for bad behaviour and I wouldnt put it beyond someone to attempt to take advantage of that.

Before I get flamed out of existance im not saying the alleged victim in this case is a liar or was not raped and anyone that knows me will know that I hold the crime of rape and rapists in the highest contempt and honestly belive rapists should be relived of their tackle in the most painful way possible so they will never do what they did again.

The man himself is a dead set fool for getting himself into strife time after time and even after he had a precious second chance that virtually none of us get but I personalluy wont sharpen the castration knife until the allegation is proven one way or another.

BANG BANG

[markp]

To me when the club starts leaking what was said/shown to the playing group regarding expected behaviour (and lets face it this came from the club) its tantamount to preparing media/fans for the obvious next step - to show the world the clubs culture wont be compromised regardless of player skill/requirements.

Interesting to read some players wanted him banished to magoo's till mid year....thatd be those playing at Sandy I imagine....

I reckon hes stuffed.

Reassuring for sponsors also...

Snap... it seems as if they are slowly and deliberately feeding the media pieces of the puzzle, and we don't really need more to figure out what the picture is....

He's expected to be charged, may get off, gawn regardless.

As for pick 16... pffft.

[Zed]

To me when the club starts leaking what was said/shown to the playing group regarding expected behaviour (and lets face it this came from the club) its tantamount to preparing media/fans for the obvious next step - to show the world the clubs culture wont be compromised regardless of player skill/requirements.

Interesting to read some players wanted him banished to magoo's till mid year....thatd be those playing at Sandy I imagine....

I reckon hes stuffed.

Reassuring for sponsors also...

Yep .. the club has started the process of managing our expectations - he's gone.

Good point about the sponsors too - they would have had some concern about getting dragged into this mess.

[degruch]

I just meant that there are many factors in a case. Conflicting versions of events, lack of proof etc can have a huge effect.
I'm not being coy, I'm censoring myself because I don't want to slander anyone involved. But you can be sure detectives will thoroughly investigate this.

You're right to some extent, we've had two guys in the team accused of rape in the past and the club stuck by them until it was finished (and not proven, no charges laid). The club would be right not to take action other than the suspension already handed out, until the whole issue has been seen through.

However, having said that, the circumstances surrounding the previous case seemed vastly different, in that neither player had a shocking record of trouble, neither seemed to pay so little respect to their team-mates, coach, club or the general public either. Those guys had the support of the team too, but the current matter seems different. Lets face it, would you fire a handball off to a team-mate who'd raped a chick in your bed? If it was true, I'd only handball it into their head.

The fact is, at this point, no-one's been charged, nothing's been proven, it's all hearsay and the circumstances surrounding the report of the incident, whilst not totally odd, do seem a bit fishy to me (i.e. opposition player reporting the issue). The club has to see it through, and any calls to sack Lovett would be premature until this has happened. The guy's an idiot, no doubt, if he's guilty he's gawn...until then, have fun in the magoos mate.

[degruch]

Yep .. the club has started the process of managing our expectations - he's gone.

Regardless of the outcome, he may be the first player to be booed by the fans on debut for the club!

[chook23]

direct from article

It's believed some players have asked whether Lovett could be sent to play for VFL affiliate Sandringham as punishment until mid-year, but the majority of the squad no longer want to play alongside the former Bomber.

I doubt the journo did a survey............

players I would think would have been instructed if approached by media

The journo starts........ it is believed

as I have mentioned in previous posts HE HAS not been charged with anything or found guilty at this stage.......

+ the media often fluff up articles...

if I recall correctly 1 of our 2 players in a previous alleged incident.......

the media spruked 1 one very likely/expected to be charged.



If charged and found guilty throw the book at him...

at the moment many have hung him without the information

[Moods]

"allegedly raped a woman as she slept".

The dictionary describes rape as the act forcing a woman to have sexual intercourse against her will.

Call me sexist or whatever (which I am not) but I am one of those in our community who has trouble with what is being described here.

As a more mature male (in age anyway), and with 3 sons (and 2 daughters), I have counselled my sons that "No is no - no matter when no is said because if you do not respect the word no whenever it is said and immediately it is said you will find yourself in the deepest of trouble - trouble which will haunt you for the rest of your life. So be warned".

For my daughters the message has always been more simple. "Do not put yourself in a compromised position because your reputation is everything. If you get the wrong reputation that reputation will precede you to your continuing detriment because people being people, they talk".

I would not think that the education I have given my children in these matters differs from what is given in most homes in our Country.

My daughters and my wife have commented on what is being reported.

And their comments go straight to "a woman was allegedly raped as she slept".

They want to know how a woman can be awoken by a single man in the act of having sexual intercourse with her.And they have aroused my curosity.

To my sons I have just repeated the lesson.

"No" is "no" the instant it is said - no matter anything else.

Maybe the story isnt quite right or just maybe it is true. Maybe she was very pissed or had some drugs or maybe her drink was spiked and just maybe it is completely true. Unless you were there and involved you wouldnt know but my guess is the reporter has an in with either the club or the cops so i will go with their story rather than you who know no facts what so ever. And yes it was a sexist statement. No wonder it is hard to prove rape with people like yourself on juries.

Not sure what it is about the story that ppl find strange. Yes the girl found herself in a compromising position. Does this mean she is open slather? She made a poor decision (in hindsight) if the allegations are correct of course. Was the woman expected to sleep through the whole ordeal?

Of course she could have been asleep and then awoke to being raped. How is that unusual? So what if Jack Anthony reported it? How does that make it fishy? Have any of you ppl dealt with a person who has just been a victim of a serious crime? Some are surprisingly rational and calm, others are an absolute mess. I have found NOTHING about the woman's story that suggests anything is fishy. That doesn't mean it is true, but I can't understand the immediate cynicism. I would suggest that a few ppl actually need to familiarise themselves with what rape actually is and not what they believe it to be.

[older saint]

[We all remember the saga for 2004 and the damage it did to the club and players reputations and the alleged victims were proven to be nothing but money chasing liars. ]

careful here not sure there is any proof of that what so ever. Due to the evidence presented by all parties there was insufficient evidence for any charges to be laid.
There was also a civil matter so to assume because no charges were laid that those involved were "money chasing liars" is a long bow to draw

[Moods]

[We all remember the saga for 2004 and the damage it did to the club and players reputations and the alleged victims were proven to be nothing but money chasing liars. ]

careful here not sure there is any proof of that what so ever. Due to the evidence presented by all parties there was insufficient evidence for any charges to be laid.
There was also a civil matter so to assume because no charges were laid that those involved were "money chasing liars" is a long bow to draw

Beat me to it older saint. Exactly right. And I thought there was an out of court settlement last year as well.

[asiu]

no , no , no .....


whilst i understand the teaching , to our sons ...(and agree absolutely with the intent)


most (experienced / elder) blokes will know that there (can be ) a game within a game with those words



no , no , no , .... dont stop .... yes , yes , yes

(i experienced it as a young fella ...and it really rattled me ...didnt know whether i was coming or going ) (no pun intended )

[degruch]

So what if Jack Anthony reported it? How does that make it fishy? Have any of you ppl dealt with a person who has just been a victim of a serious crime? Some are surprisingly rational and calm, others are an absolute mess. I have found NOTHING about the woman's story that suggests anything is fishy. That doesn't mean it is true, but I can't understand the immediate cynicism. I would suggest that a few ppl actually need to familiarise themselves with what rape actually is and not what they believe it to be.

It is possibly 'fishy', and by stating that I am by no means discounting the woman's story at all, I'm just being rational, not emotional. The authorities would have to take into account that essentially a 'rival' has taken action, not the person involved, leaving open the possibility that this is a vendetta, or simply emliminating a dangerous opposition player. You have to take everything into account until the facts are proven. Rationality and cool heads are what's required.

[Moods]

So what if Jack Anthony reported it? How does that make it fishy? Have any of you ppl dealt with a person who has just been a victim of a serious crime? Some are surprisingly rational and calm, others are an absolute mess. I have found NOTHING about the woman's story that suggests anything is fishy. That doesn't mean it is true, but I can't understand the immediate cynicism. I would suggest that a few ppl actually need to familiarise themselves with what rape actually is and not what they believe it to be.

It is possibly 'fishy', and by stating that I am by no means discounting the woman's story at all, I'm just being rational, not emotional. The authorities would have to take into account that essentially a 'rival' has taken action, not the person involved, leaving open the possibility that this is a vendetta, or simply emliminating a dangerous opposition player. You have to take everything into account until the facts are proven. Rationality and cool heads are what's required.

Surely your taking the urine? Let's accuse a player of rape so as to elliminate him as a threat??????? I'm incredulous.

Firstly Lovett's not that good, not as if it's Riewoldt. You're also assuming that Anthony has absolutely no morals/ethics/standards. I forgot these qualities are exclusive to saints players. I just can't believe that you think like that, and I'm pretty sure the Vic POlice aren't thinking that.

[degruch]

So what if Jack Anthony reported it? How does that make it fishy? Have any of you ppl dealt with a person who has just been a victim of a serious crime? Some are surprisingly rational and calm, others are an absolute mess. I have found NOTHING about the woman's story that suggests anything is fishy. That doesn't mean it is true, but I can't understand the immediate cynicism. I would suggest that a few ppl actually need to familiarise themselves with what rape actually is and not what they believe it to be.

It is possibly 'fishy', and by stating that I am by no means discounting the woman's story at all, I'm just being rational, not emotional. The authorities would have to take into account that essentially a 'rival' has taken action, not the person involved, leaving open the possibility that this is a vendetta, or simply emliminating a dangerous opposition player. You have to take everything into account until the facts are proven. Rationality and cool heads are what's required.

Surely your taking the urine? Let's accuse a player of rape so as to elliminate him as a threat??????? I'm incredulous.

Firstly Lovett's not that good, not as if it's Riewoldt. You're also assuming that Anthony has absolutely no morals/ethics/standards. I forgot these qualities are exclusive to saints players. I just can't believe that you think like that, and I'm pretty sure the Vic POlice aren't thinking that.

Calm down Moods, I'm just saying the cops couldn't eliminate anything, no matter how ridiculous. If the police weren't thinking like that, they wouldn't be doing their job. Lets face it, having another male involved, who could also be a rival either romantically or professionally is an interesting twist. Do we know if this is opportunistic, or has it been building up for some time? None of us know. As you've pointed out, she could have been simply falling on a trusted friend who did the right thing and calmly reported the incident to police. Seems far more likely to me too.

There seems to be a lot of speculation here, but there's a hell of a lot of factors to consider before anyone declares Andrew Lovett guilty of anything...least of all a bunch of forum flogs like us.

[SainterK]

I am not going to comment on the serious allegations, haven't done and will not.

However, I believe if we were to look at the fact Lovett was out drinking again in isolation, he may have already done enough to justify the clubs letting him go?

Especially given the warning from Ross that went unheeded, and the fact that this would be the second time that he has been involved in an alcohol related incident.

Is it to much to assume that he would have been advised to keep away from the pub?

[dals_da_bomb]

Given that this forum is public and that we all dont know the personal experiences of others, could everyone please take care in what they are putting forward.


we all have friends, daughters, wifes, family members. Unfortunatly far to many people have experienced this terrible crime.

i will clarify rape does happen to a sleeping victim.
i will clarify rape is not just penetration of a penis.

if a rape was reported to the police shortly after the crime, a medical screening would of been preformed. also bedding and clothes collected.

no good can come out of this. Doubt it just as evil as confirmation.

[saintlee]

Lovett is trouble, the sooner he is gone the better....what a waste

[degruch]

However, I believe if we were to look at the fact Lovett was out drinking again in isolation, he may have already done enough to justify the clubs letting him go?

I would have thought guilty of being a drunken idiot and trying it on with the coach, say hello to the magoos. Guilty of rape, say goodbye to your career.

I'll sit back and wait, I'm not gonna hang anyone just yet, there's a few people on here willing to go out on a limb already, which I think is pretty dangerous (not the least legally, as point out by dals_da_bomb).

[chook23]

Given that this forum is public and that we all dont know the personal experiences of others, could everyone please take care in what they are putting forward.


we all have friends, daughters, wifes, family members. Unfortunatly far to many people have experienced this terrible crime.

i will clarify rape does happen to a sleeping victim.
i will clarify rape is not just penetration of a penis.

if a rape was reported to the police shortly after the crime, a medical screening would of been preformed. also bedding and clothes collected.

no good can come out of this. Doubt it just as evil as confirmation.

I think your 2nd clarify needs clarification........

[dals_da_bomb]

any object or body apart that is inserted and/or penetrated against the will of any other person any where in their body can be deemed as rape.

that clear all cleared up now?

[chook23]

any object or body apart that is inserted and/or penetrated against the will of any other person any where in their body can be deemed as rape.

that clear all cleared up now?

I was just making a slight dig at the use of the word ...of a ..rather than... by

but you must of not re read what you typed.