He is gone...rumour

[IluvHarvey]

THere's such a thing as a risk and a calculated risk. Ppl comparing the recruiting of Gardiner with Lovett are kidding themselves. What did we risk? We got him for nothing and pay him virtually base rate. How's that a risk? All our other gems that we got off other clubs (Dawson, Schneider, King, Ray) we also got for virtually nothing. How's that a risk? Same could be said for Jesse Smith.

TRading your top pick in a weak draft (it could be argued that this was our best chance of getting a decent young player) for a player like Lovett, who had a history of indiscretions and laziness, was verging on reckless and possibly even smacking of desperation. Desperation for that quality missing from our team - pace and a bit of magic.

I agree with Joffa, Lyon takes the credit for the good gets from most of us(and rightly so) and needs to wear this stuff up. It wasn't a smart risk, or a calculated risk. It was an outright gamble.

Some good points but I was comparing the risk factor of taking both Gardiner and Lovett. Not what we gave for them.

At the end of last season we were two kicks away from ultimate glory. The way I see it, our coaching department identified our needs to make up those 2 kicks. PACE. So i have no regrets or complaints that we effectively used our first pick to gain a proven quick player (off-field problems aside). Yes we could have used that pick to develop a kid that may take longer and by that time our chances have past.

[Richter]

It wasn't a smart risk, or a calculated risk. It was an outright gamble.

I totally disagree with this.

IMO you are markedly OVER-rating the likely quality of player we would have picked up with the pick 16. TO illustrate my point, the last 10 years of pick 16s....

1999 - David Haynes
2000 - Scott Thompson
2001 - Rick Ladson
2002 - Stephen Gilham
2003 - Josh Willoughby
2004 - Adam Pattison
2005 - Richard Douglas
2006 - Mitchell Brown
2007 - Matthew Lobbe
2008 - Ryan Schoenmakers

Whereas on-field Lovett is a proven GUN with a few years left in the tank - to coincide with our window. In retrospect he is certainly in the top 10 if not top 5 of the players to come out of the 2003 draft. Obviously his off-field stuff was the negative and was the reason we were able to pick him up with only a low 1st round pick.

[joffaboy]

I agree with Joffa, Lyon takes the credit for the good gets from most of us(and rightly so) and needs to wear this stuff up. It wasn't a smart risk, or a calculated risk. It was an outright gamble.

In hindsight, I tend to agree.

We were so circumspect in not taking Cousins and I think we made the correct decision.

With Lovett we seemed to have let that caution slide because he was exactly what we needed, and the frustration was so great after just failing in the Grand Final.

It was a fair enough gamble. but Lyon has stuffed up this time.

Why is this so hard to fathom?

Whty cant lyon be critisised when he stuffs up?

He has made a mistake on this one. So what? Every one cocks up occasionally, he is not perfect.

[Moods]

Proven gun?

Not in my book. A bloke who can't finish in his clubs top 10 of their B&F? Not even once. THis same player was playing in a bottom 8 team for much of that time. Your definition of a gun is different to mine.

Kosi has been crucified around here on occasions. Some have justified this by the fact that he can't finish in our top 10 players each year. I would argue that Kosi has the same X factor as Lovett - ie marking power as opposed to pace. Proven gun though? Both onfield are inconsistent and poss a little lazy. Both are about the same age. Both are capable of being excitement machines and have been exactly that on occasions, but both haven't been this enough for my liking to label as a gun.

If lovett had Kosi's off field record I probably would have said it was a calculated risk, and just one of those things that didn't work out ie a good player who suited our needs who could poss take himself and our team to the next level once at a different club.

For mine a gun is Brendan Fevola. If he was what we needed I wouldn't have blamed the club BECAUSE he is a proven gun.

[sainterinsydney]

Don't forget the Bulldogs would have given up Everitt for pick 16. So in my opinion, we missed out on Everitt if Lovett is sacked.

[stinger]

Don't forget the Bulldogs would have given up Everitt for pick 16. So in my opinion, we missed out on Everitt if Lovett is sacked.

yep...makes me want to cry actually....

[Dal_Santos_Gal]

Let's get one thing straight here, if we had KICKED straight in that GF we would have pretty much had the cup in our hands by half time, with or without cousins....
To say cousins could have been the difference in the GF is a little out there, he could have easily sitting in the grand stands with that dodgy hamstring of his.

I don't thing compering cousins to lovett is fair, they are two totally different cases, not even close to being similar IMO

As for lovett, he is a cancer and I hope this rumor that he is gone, is true.
He has only been at the club for 5 minutes, yet made the headlines twice already for being a little s***.

Don't care what different he "could" have made, the club does not need a walking time bomb at the club.

The club took a gamble, like every club does with some players, sometimes you win some, sometimes you lose some.... We lost out this time, but considering what Ross has managed with this group of players since coming to the club, you can't really go and hang him out to dry.
No one here and if you did think it your lying would have ever dreamed getting into a GF with only losing 2 games for the year. Not in our wildest dreams you could have seen 2009 play out like it did.


As for Lovett, There's the door and don't let it hit you in the ass on the way out..

[rodgerfox]

Proven gun?

Not in my book. A bloke who can't finish in his clubs top 10 of their B&F? Not even once. THis same player was playing in a bottom 8 team for much of that time. Your definition of a gun is different to mine.

Very much in agreeance with this.

[rodgerfox]

Let's get one thing straight here, if we had KICKED straight in that GF we would have pretty much had the cup in our hands by half time, with or without cousins....

The same could be said for Lovett.

[Milton66]

I agree with Joffa, Lyon takes the credit for the good gets from most of us(and rightly so) and needs to wear this stuff up. It wasn't a smart risk, or a calculated risk. It was an outright gamble.

In hindsight, I tend to agree.

We were so circumspect in not taking Cousins and I think we made the correct decision.

With Lovett we seemed to have let that caution slide because he was exactly what we needed, and the frustration was so great after just failing in the Grand Final.

It was a fair enough gamble. but Lyon has stuffed up this time.

Why is this so hard to fathom?

Whty cant lyon be critisised when he stuffs up?

He has made a mistake on this one. So what? Every one cocks up occasionally, he is not perfect.

Ah well, I seem to rcall many posts here condemming the club because it didn't take a risk with BC and how you need to take risks t win a flag, blah blah blah.

So now the club took a risk and it appears to have backfired.

In hindsight a poor decision. Lyon is not beyond criticism.

So, now we move on and look forward to 2010.

Just as no one expected current players to improve during the Cousins saga, let's remember that the current list can still get better. And it will!

Go Saints.

[ace]

i am only as good as what i was told but it was told directly to me.

Why would the source do that?

Because he took the lid off and tipped the bottle upside down.

[Milan Faletic]

It's still alleged, it's still pending, it's still rumour.

The OP may be right but until something official comes out, we as a forum have speculated for 30 plus pages about him.

If it's true then fair enough, but right now all we have, is rumour and speculation.

Yes, I am disappointed. Yes, where there is smoke there is fire. Yes, his past doesn't augur well for him. BUT he is innocent before proven guilty and I will bite my tongue until I hear the facts.

Good night.

[Moods]

[Ah well, I seem to rcall many posts here condemming the club because it didn't take a risk with BC and how you need to take risks t win a flag, blah blah blah.

So now the club took a risk and it appears to have backfired.

In hindsight a poor decision. Lyon is not beyond criticism.

So, now we move on and look forward to 2010.

Just as no one expected current players to improve during the Cousins saga, let's remember that the current list can still get better. And it will!

Go Saints.

I agree with this. However I wasn't keen on takin on Cousins either so maybe I'm just naturally cautious with these matters.

I would argue though that Cousins was a far better risk for numerous reasons.
i) Better player and PROVEN player
ii) Far more likely to work hard as has a history of being a maniac on the track
iii) Wouldn't have had to give up anything to get him, and could have paid him peanuts.

Off field he had about the same record as Lovett, but he was older and more injury prone.

How far have we come though since mid way through 08 though? How many ppl would have said back then that Lyon appears immune from criticism?

[bigred]

lols.

The guy is obviously a complete and total half wit.

better off without him.

Dont let the door hit you on the way out...

[Zed]

The saints wouldn't choose Cousins because of his off field difficulties.

Seems like the Saints hierarachy have been blinded by the GF loss and took Lovett in a knee jerk reaction to our greatest weakness - speed, or lack thereof.

The buck stops with Lyon. he cops kudo's for most of his recruiting, but has stuffed the trading period up big time in 2009. Overall, Lyon has been excellent, this time however he has been very poor.

Agreed RL was seduced into a knee jerk reaction by "what if "thinking ..If we had been spanked in the GF by 10 goals then I dont think RL would have thought that AL was the missing link.

[saint66au]

Lyon takes the credit for the good gets from most of us

That sentence actually doesnt make much sense, unless we all email RL directly after one of his recruits plays well.

If you meant that RL takes the credit for our recruiting sucesses so he must wear the failures, well Ive never heard him say "see I wanted to choose him arent I good" lol

If you meant that we pump up RL's tyres when picks go well, so we are allowed to sledge him when they dont..well not sure of the logic in that to be honest.

[SydneySainter]

I agree with Joffa, Lyon takes the credit for the good gets from most of us(and rightly so) and needs to wear this stuff up. It wasn't a smart risk, or a calculated risk. It was an outright gamble.

In hindsight, I tend to agree.

We were so circumspect in not taking Cousins and I think we made the correct decision.

With Lovett we seemed to have let that caution slide because he was exactly what we needed, and the frustration was so great after just failing in the Grand Final.

It was a fair enough gamble. but Lyon has stuffed up this time.

Why is this so hard to fathom?

Whty cant lyon be critisised when he stuffs up?

He has made a mistake on this one. So what? Every one cocks up occasionally, he is not perfect.

Ah well, I seem to rcall many posts here condemming the club because it didn't take a risk with BC and how you need to take risks t win a flag, blah blah blah.

So now the club took a risk and it appears to have backfired.

In hindsight a poor decision. Lyon is not beyond criticism.

So, now we move on and look forward to 2010.

Just as no one expected current players to improve during the Cousins saga, let's remember that the current list can still get better. And it will!

Go Saints.

Yes, I remember the 'risks have to be taken to win a flag' getting quite a workout on this forum after the decision to not go for Cousins was announced and particularly after the grand final.

I actually agree, risks have to be taken, but the point about a risk is that it may or may not work. The problem is that when a club takes a risk that seems to pay off, the recruitment is praised as genius. When it fails, it's perceived as an act of stupidity and all of sudden, everyone 'saw that coming a mile away'.

Lyon is senior coach and at the end of the day, the buck stops with him and so it should and he will accept his required due of the responsibility.

[Milton66]

I agree with Joffa, Lyon takes the credit for the good gets from most of us(and rightly so) and needs to wear this stuff up. It wasn't a smart risk, or a calculated risk. It was an outright gamble.

In hindsight, I tend to agree.

We were so circumspect in not taking Cousins and I think we made the correct decision.

With Lovett we seemed to have let that caution slide because he was exactly what we needed, and the frustration was so great after just failing in the Grand Final.

It was a fair enough gamble. but Lyon has stuffed up this time.

Why is this so hard to fathom?

Whty cant lyon be critisised when he stuffs up?

He has made a mistake on this one. So what? Every one cocks up occasionally, he is not perfect.

Ah well, I seem to rcall many posts here condemming the club because it didn't take a risk with BC and how you need to take risks t win a flag, blah blah blah.

So now the club took a risk and it appears to have backfired.

In hindsight a poor decision. Lyon is not beyond criticism.

So, now we move on and look forward to 2010.

Just as no one expected current players to improve during the Cousins saga, let's remember that the current list can still get better. And it will!

Go Saints.

Yes, I remember the 'risks have to be taken to win a flag' getting quite a workout on this forum after the decision to not go for Cousins was announced and particularly after the grand final.

I actually agree, risks have to be taken, but the point about a risk is that it may or may not work. The problem is that when a club takes a risk that seems to pay off, the recruitment is praised as genius. When it fails, it's perceived as an act of stupidity and all of sudden, everyone 'saw that coming a mile away'.

Lyon is senior coach and at the end of the day, the buck stops with him and so it should and he will accept his required due of the responsibility.

Exactamundo!

[cwrcyn]

A fool and his draft picks soon go separate ways????????????.


I hope A.L. is gone, beacause if he stays he will be
a storm cloud hanging over the Saints - an eternal distraction to the good work that others are trying to do.




.

[Badlands]

Sad that my first post of 2010 is on a thread of this nature... but them's the breaks.

I don't really get the "Lyon didn't stuff up - he took a gamble that didn't come off" argument being peddled on this thread. Isn't a gamble that doesn't come off by its very nature, a stuff up? Anyway, don't want to get too hung up on that, I like Lyon a lot, but by any measure the impact of some of the decisions taken in this off season could be considerable, and to be fair, we will never really know.

To those people dragging out the past draft history of pick no. 16s to support their argument that 'all we've lost out on is a GOP at best', that's rubbish unless you also post the names of every player taken at those drafts from pick 17 and beyond and can demonstrate that they also were never better than GOPs.

All that posting the recent past history of pick 16s shows is that there is far from a guarantee we would have picked up a young gun who would have 'made it'. From my reading, no one has argued anywhere that there was ever a guarantee. But you've got to be in it to win it, and if Lovett does exit without playing a game, well it's not a deliberate attempt to sound repetitive, but we will never really know.

[satchmo]

If you meant that we pump up RL's tyres when picks go well, so we are allowed to sledge him when they dont..well not sure of the logic in that to be honest.

spot.on.

[Moods]

Lyon takes the credit for the good gets from most of us

That sentence actually doesnt make much sense, unless we all email RL directly after one of his recruits plays well.

If you meant that RL takes the credit for our recruiting sucesses so he must wear the failures, well Ive never heard him say "see I wanted to choose him arent I good" lol

If you meant that we pump up RL's tyres when picks go well, so we are allowed to sledge him when they dont..well not sure of the logic in that to be honest.

I didn't mean RL literally takes credit for the recruiting. What I meant is as a group of supporters if we are going to marvel at some of his recruiting genius, then we should also have both eyes open and be able to express when he has stuffed one of them up.

[borderbarry]

You cant blame Lyon for this debacle. The whole recruiting team is at fault. What the club has in fact done is swap Xavier Clarke and Pick 16 for Lovett and Pick 60.

[Con Gorozidis]

Essendon are laughing their arses off over this.

Offloaded this idiot to us for #16, and the clown is so uinhinged that he wont even play a game with us.

Ross Lyon has completely stuffed up.

Completely.

It wasn't a "Stuff UP" at the time, it was a "GAMBLE". I'm pretty sure that there would have been quite a few in the heirachy of the club who contributed to the decision to gamble on him.

If a decision has in fact been made on his future (and I'm convinced it was made on Christmas Eve) we need to be mindful that it was/is NOT football related meaning the "GAMBLE" has gone sour through NO FAULT of anyone a the club !!

well whatever. we spent/lost pick 16 AND Luke Ball for Zilch during trade week!

thats crap management/trading/gambling/foresight. call it what u will. i know hindsight is a wonderful thing but its a piss poor result no matter how u spin/dice/cut it.

[I Love Peter Kiel]

Someone said Ess#ndon will be laughing. Some people there may be laughing, but they'll be laughing wHile occupying (again) the lower rungs of the ladder!
They are the new R^chmond....all they can look forwrd to each season is beating Carlt*n and maybe beating Collingw*od. Forget about finals.