best 22 for 2010 if fully fit

[DWOODROW]

The rest of the competition will be working on ways to pick our structures apart so we may benefit from becoming a little less predictable; particularly in attack.

How about trying something a like this...
B: Armitage Dawson Baker
HB: Gram Blake Gilbert
C: Montagna Hayes Lovett
HF: Fisher Riewoldt Clarke
F: Schneider Kosi Steven

R: Gardiner Goddard Dal Santo

Int: McEvoy Milne Jones Ray


Makes Armo accountable as atm he seems to just drift in and out of games.
Throwing Sam Fisher up forward may give us that quality third tall we've been searching for.

Raph plays high on the forward line giving you extra run and allowing him to use his creative flair.

Gram and Gilbert provide run off the backline and
Lovett and Montagna give us pace across the centre.

Imo we should also to start rotating a few players to give Lynch, Steven, Heyne, McEvoy and Miles some experience and freshen up a few of the older guys throughout the course of the season.
I thought some of our blokes looked a bit flat in the finals against the Maggots and the Doggies and Geelong seemed to time their run into the finals a just a little better.

Your idea isn't that far fetched. Armitage was a defender in his juniour career and can play there. whoever gets the ball he is going to make earn it anyway. The rest isn't too bad.

[samoht]

We went in with 3 genuine small forwards into the Grand final (McQualter, Milne, Schneider).
So half our forward line were smalls and were easy pickings for the stronger
Cat defenders.

We need to change the old forward structure and bring in 2 quick medium sized players and inject more muscle - so lose 2 smalls and just keep 1 small.

So we need to work out who our best 2 medium sized forwards are and start playing them.

Lovett is only slightly built himself (about 75 kgs) so I prefer not to see him on the half forward flank - unless he is our only small in the forward line.

1 small only in the forward line please Mr Lyon !

[PJ]

That i post 10 paragraphs per post or whatever you were on about.

I think if you go back and have a look all I said was we're all not experts. I didn't mention any of the above at all.

[Saintersss]

Just cause you write 10 paragraphs each post doesn't mean you know what you are talking about.

I suggest you take a bit of a look at your own posts. I'm pretty sure that none of us here are on the St.Kilda selection commitee or perhaps you can enlighten me as to your football pedigree.

???

[spert]

It will be interesting in the pre-season lead up to Round 1. I want to see who busts their gut for a game. I reckon it will many positions thrown open in the forward line and those who put their hands up in pre season games will get the gig.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

We went in with 3 genuine small forwards into the Grand final (McQualter, Milne, Schneider).
So half our forward line were smalls and were easy pickings for the stronger
Cat defenders.

...

1 small only in the forward line please Mr Lyon !

Nonsense. Had the smalls kicked straight, Saints win in a canter. All 3 had shockers kicking for goal, missing shots they would have hit 99 times out of 100.

Forward structure was not only fine, it was an area of advantage we simply didn't capitalise on.

[saintnick12]

We went in with 3 genuine small forwards into the Grand final (McQualter, Milne, Schneider).
So half our forward line were smalls and were easy pickings for the stronger
Cat defenders.

...

1 small only in the forward line please Mr Lyon !

Nonsense. Had the smalls kicked straight, Saints win in a canter. All 3 had shockers kicking for goal, missing shots they would have hit 99 times out of 100.

Forward structure was not only fine, it was an area of advantage we simply didn't capitalise on.

Agreed. Have debated this issue with samoht before, so won't do it again now, but agree with you Bam that we had the right structure, but not enough finishing skills on the day.

[samoht]

I'm sorry but having 3 forward smalls wasn't the right structure in the grand final

Maybe we should have gone in with just Schneider as the small ?

As it turned out we went in with 2 smalls too many in the grand final and even against the Dogs really.

That's 3 out of 6 forward players that can get pushed around in a tough game and can't apply enough forward line tackling pressure.
I couldn't believe how easily Milburne kept rebounding the ball under little physical pressure.

We dominated the inside 50's but the Cat defenders dominated our small brigade.

we clearly need to inject more muscle in the finals and I reckon 2 more medium sized forward players or we can expect more of the same come the tough finals.

[Saintersss]

I'm sorry but having 3 forward smalls wasn't the right structure in the grand final

Maybe we should have gone in with just Schneider as the small ?

As it turned out we went in with 2 smalls too many in the grand final and even against the Dogs really.

That's 3 out of 6 forward players that can get pushed around in a tough game and can't apply enough forward line tackling pressure.
I couldn't believe how easily Milburne kept rebounding the ball under little physical pressure.

We dominated the inside 50's but the Cat defenders dominated our small brigade.

we clearly need to inject more muscle in the finals and I reckon 2 more medium sized forward players or we can expect more of the same come the tough finals.

Sure that would be great, but the fact is we don't have any decent mid sized forwards, the only real options are Dempster and Gwilt and both showed they weren't up to it. And unless Lynch steps up quickly we still don't have one. And putting Goddard, Gilbert or Fisher there is just robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[skeptic]

And putting Goddard, Gilbert or Fisher there is just robbing Peter to pay Paul.

debatable IMO

we can cover HBF easier than the flank on the other side of the ground

Goddard and/or Fisher should switch given the occassion IMO

[Saintersss]

And putting Goddard, Gilbert or Fisher there is just robbing Peter to pay Paul.

debatable IMO

we can cover HBF easier than the flank on the other side of the ground

Goddard and/or Fisher should switch given the occassion IMO

I guess that is true. And the club looks to be thinking about it as they have tried Fisher there in the Essendon game as well as Goddard on a few occasions. Maybe that is why we wanted Everitt so badly and ended up taking Smith instead to fill whoevers position.

But I'd rather not mess with our defence seeing as it was so good this year.

[samoht]

I'd be playing Heyne even at this stage as a half forward flanker and as a mid sized forward - we all know he still needs to build up his body, put on some kilos but so does Robert Murphy of the Bulldogs and that hasn't stopped him from being a good half forward flanker.

We need to try anything to get away from the 3 small forwards structure that doesn't work in the finals - and at least Heyne will have the height to compete in the air and take marks until he builds up.

In the grand final we could have played Heyne and Armitage and just kept Schneider as the small.

[bigcarl]

We need to try anything to get away from the 3 small forwards structure that doesn't work in the finals.

none of our forwards, riewoldt aside, would be overly proud of their finals series. however the three smalls that you mentioned, plus kosi and riewoldt, all had pretty respectable seasons when taken as a whole.

the spot i'd be looking at first is the one held by gwilt early in the season and by dempster in the grand final ... the troublesome third tall spot, where we need a marking target who can kick goals as well as defend.

that said, if someone like heyne or steven can put pressure on milne or schneider or macqualter for their position it will be healthy for us. pressure has to come on all spots.

[PJ]

Saintersss where have I said anything about 10 parapgraphs blah blah blah - I was quoting you. As you have highlighted I've just suggested you check out what you have said to others - it's really not that deep.


????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? - see I can use a key too

[samoht]

We need to try anything to get away from the 3 small forwards structure that doesn't work in the finals.

none of our forwards, riewoldt aside, would be overly proud of their finals series. however the three smalls that you mentioned, plus kosi and riewoldt, all had pretty respectable seasons when taken as a whole.

the spot i'd be looking at first is the one held by gwilt early in the season and by dempster in the grand final ... the troublesome third tall spot, where we need someone who can kick goals as well as defend.

that said, if someone like heyne or steven can put pressure on milne or schneider or macqualter for their position it will be healthy for us. pressure has to come on all spots.

The 3 small forwards continue to play their normal "keepings off" style (which works in the H&A) in the finals , but the problem is come the finals the (bigger/stronger) opposition is now playing for "keeps".

[bigcarl]

We need to try anything to get away from the 3 small forwards structure that doesn't work in the finals.

none of our forwards, riewoldt aside, would be overly proud of their finals series. however the three smalls that you mentioned, plus kosi and riewoldt, all had pretty respectable seasons when taken as a whole.

the spot i'd be looking at first is the one held by gwilt early in the season and by dempster in the grand final ... the troublesome third tall spot, where we need someone who can kick goals as well as defend.

that said, if someone like heyne or steven can put pressure on milne or schneider or macqualter for their position it will be healthy for us. pressure has to come on all spots.

The 3 small forwards continue to play their normal "keepings off" style (which works in the H&A) in the finals , but the problem is come the finals the (bigger/stronger) opposition is now playing for "keeps".

maybe so, but i think finding someone who works as a third tall is more pressing.

[Saintersss]

Saintersss where have I said anything about 10 parapgraphs blah blah blah - I was quoting you. As you have highlighted I've just suggested you check out what you have said to others - it's really not that deep.


????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? - see I can use a key too

I have no idea what you are on about.

You quoted the bit where I said he writes 10 paragraphs and replied have a look at yourself, implying that I do the same thing. And now you are saying something completly different and using a lot of questions marks.

Are you okay?

[samoht]

bigcarl

I agree we do need a quality third mobile tall - that would be great and
hopefully Walsh will succeed, who knows ?

For me ..
The most pressing issue remains we need to get away from having half our forward line composed of smalls - it will not be ideal again come the next finals.
Otherwise our forward line is skewed and remains over -represented in the small/short/weak end - is not balanced right.

The ideal forward line structure-wise for me would be -

3 talls (CHF, FF and 1 roaming mobile/athletic tall someone better than Dempster).

2 quick mid sized forwards/flankers (Heyne could make one and should hit the gym right away - I reckon he should be played in round 1).

1 small only - from either Schneider, Mcqualter, Steven or Milne

[To the top]

So we need to find out where someone like Lynch, who was a first round Draft Pick in 2008, is at in 2010.

He is 192cm.

No doubt the loss of Allen has impacted.

From there, the pressure is on the mid-field and the ever increasing need to expand on our options to ensure we are rotating maximum pressure at all times.

The inclusion of Schnieder, Lovett and Steven as our support forwards gives us more mid field rotation options - an area where Milne and McQualter are deficient.

I do not have a problem with a forward 6 option (given we play 6) of Koschitzke, Riewoldt, Lynch, Lovett, Schnieder and Steven.

I think that covers all options.

And I think this 6 does away with the need to have a dedicated 'defensive small'.

To match our Forward 6 v our Defensive 6, which is interesting:-

Koschitzke v. Dawson
Riewoldt v. Fisher
Lynch v. Gilbert
Lovett v. Peake
Schnieder v. Miles
Steven v. Gram

In the reverse, you would be looking at Lynch to close down Gilbert's attack and Steven to keep tabs on Gram's rebounding.

Miles would have a height advantage over Schnieder, who can take grabs with good body work and Lovett v. Peake would be interesting.

Dawson and Fisher have the jobs ahead of them.

That said, each of the defensive 6 named have rebounding credentials so each of the attack 6 have responsibility.

Our mids of Hayes, Dal Santo, Montagna, Goddard, Jones, Ray, Armitage and Clarke have a touch of class about them.

And 2 pretty fair, if ageing, ruckmen.

[bigcarl]

bigcarl

I agree we do need a quality third mobile tall - that would be great and
hopefully Walsh will succeed, who knows ?

For me ..
The most pressing issue remains we need to get away from having half our forward line composed of smalls - it will not be ideal again come the next finals.
Otherwise our forward line is skewed and remains over -represented in the small/short/weak end - is not balanced right.

The ideal forward line structure-wise for me would be -

3 talls (CHF, FF and 1 roaming mobile/athletic tall someone better than Dempster).

2 quick mid sized forwards/flankers (Heyne could make one and should hit the gym right away - I reckon he should be played in round 1).

1 small only - from either Schneider, Mcqualter, Steven or Milne

Well, let's see what Ross and Leigh Tudor come up with. To be honest they didn't do a lot wrong last season and with just a bit of luck and perhaps some poise under pressure (kicking) we'd have been celebrating a flag.

I'm not certain that it calls for wholesale changes. There's a danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We just need to ensure that the tweaking we do is in the right places.

[elphie]

i see ARMO a straight swap for BALL.
and LOVETT is a shoe-in for whoever.....don't matter (re Dempster as per G.F team)


i like GEARY and MCEVOY (and even MILES/STEVEN) to be getting game time and suitable replacements for any injuries (esp. KING been 'sus') but will they be there in SEPTEMBER????
i think not.....you'll find their bodies may not hold up in second-half of season and in finals pressure!!! though i hope i'm proven wrong.
just look at our NO.1 FINALS TEAM selected this year.

so, besides the obvious above two changes mentioned above i can only see PEAKE in for say RAY/CLARKE as any further change to our starting line-up!

any comments?

[samoht]

Well, let's see what Ross and Leigh Tudor come up with. To be honest they didn't do a lot wrong last season and with just a bit of luck and perhaps some poise under pressure (kicking) we'd have been celebrating a flag .

Our 3 short forwards became a problem for us against the stronger/ taller Cat defenders and even against the Dogs.

We know the Dogs lack quality talls, but in fact the Dogs forward 6 is probably bigger than our forward 6 overall if we consider and take into account our 3 smalls.

The Dogs are trying to address their problem with Hall.

We need to start addressing our structural problem too - you can't build a forward line for the finals with 3 genuine smalls !

It was more than poise under kicking .. we dominated the inside 50's and probably should have won by 6 goals - poise or no poise, if we had the right forward structure/ balance with a couple of bigger players in there who would not only stand up to the pressure better - they would have also put the Cat defenders under more severe tackling pressure too..

[bigcarl]

Well, let's see what Ross and Leigh Tudor come up with. To be honest they didn't do a lot wrong last season and with just a bit of luck and perhaps some poise under pressure (kicking) we'd have been celebrating a flag .

Our 3 short forwards became a problem for us against the stronger/ taller Cat defenders and even against the Dogs.

We know the Dogs lack quality talls, but in fact the Dogs forward 6 is probably bigger than our forward 6 overall if we consider and take into account our 3 smalls.

The Dogs are trying to address their problem with Hall.

We need to start addressing our structural problem too - you can't build a forward line for the finals with 3 genuine smalls !

It was more than poise under kicking .. we dominated the inside 50's and probably should have won by 6 goals - poise or no poise, if we had the right forward structure/ balance with a couple of bigger players in there who would not only stand up to the pressure better - they would have also put the Cat defenders under more severe tackling pressure too..

milne (46), schneider (34) and mini (22) kicked 102 goals between them for the season, a significant number. Not everyone can kick them and to a degree it is a skill that cannot be taught or learnt.

If a decision was made to replace two of the three with bigger, stronger bodies we'd want to ensure that they are natural goalkickers who can at least match that goals output over a season.

[Dr Spaceman]

Well, let's see what Ross and Leigh Tudor come up with. To be honest they didn't do a lot wrong last season and with just a bit of luck and perhaps some poise under pressure (kicking) we'd have been celebrating a flag .

Our 3 short forwards became a problem for us against the stronger/ taller Cat defenders and even against the Dogs.

We know the Dogs lack quality talls, but in fact the Dogs forward 6 is probably bigger than our forward 6 overall if we consider and take into account our 3 smalls.

The Dogs are trying to address their problem with Hall.

We need to start addressing our structural problem too - you can't build a forward line for the finals with 3 genuine smalls !

It was more than poise under kicking .. we dominated the inside 50's and probably should have won by 6 goals - poise or no poise, if we had the right forward structure/ balance with a couple of bigger players in there who would not only stand up to the pressure better - they would have also put the Cat defenders under more severe tackling pressure too..

milne (46), schneider (34) and mini (22) kicked 102 goals between them for the season, a significant number. Not everyone can kick them and to a degree it is a skill that cannot be taught or learnt.

If a decision was made to replace two of the three with bigger, stronger bodies we'd want to ensure that they are natural goalkickers who can at least match that goals output.

dempster, on the other hand, snagged three (granted from limited games). gwilt, who played most of the first half of the season, kicked eight. i quite like gwilt as a player and don't mind dempster, but i'm not convinced of their ability to impact on the scoreboard.

I also like Gwilt but he's been in the system for a while now so there must be questions about his ability to ever be more than a bit player. Of course it's very difficult in his position when you have Roo & Kosi in the same half and they naturally draw the ball. And when Gwilt does get the ball you sense that a lot of the time he doesn't have the confidence to have a shot. Whether that's due to the team plan or whether he just feels a bit intimidated by the big names around him I'm not sure.

I sometimes wish he'd just go for it however that may not be his role. And I for one am not going to question what Rossy is doing, coz whatever it is works for me

[CaptainRiewoldt]

We forget how good Geary is going to be in 2010. Gwilt has one more year to do something... he can be a great player if he gets some balls!!

Lynch will take him over this year I feel.