Another GT "Gem"... I agree 100%!

[SENsei]

I saw an old friend last night who knows GT well.

Funnily enough, it appears GT is aware of this thread. Cannot comment if he's actually read it.

Maybe he doesn't want to comment on it......

[SENsei]

Phil - 47
GT - 0

[meher baba]

Outcoached..bah humbug....

While a week off is good for the body...IMO it is not so good for footballers minds.

We came out of the blocks slow last week and took half a game to get going.


As to all Eades moves...what were they?? As mentioned by another already he largely just aped Lyon's strategies.

How did Eade get Ray when the ball was kicked to him in space to double back and then kick sideways to a Dog when he should have just marked and run on to have an easy ping from 30 m out?

While much has been made of the dogs missing shots on the run the saints bungled a lot of scoring opportunities in the first half to extent that they did not even score.

then the saints settled, got there mojo back and ground out a win against a very good opponent.

It is notable that both Jonathon Brown and Simon Black both separately stated on Brownlow night that the StKilda v Dogs was one of greatest pressure games that they have ever seen....and that Black stated that he found the game fascinating.

Those that reckon the dogs were easybeats are grossly under-estimating how the Dogs played.

I have already withdrawn my use of the phrase "Eade outcoached Lyon" and replaced it with "Eade delivered a terrific coaching performance which was almost, but not quite, successful on the night".

I now realise that the word "outcoached" means something different to most people than it formerly did to me. I thought it meant that a coach came to a particular game with a better match day strategy and/or made better decisions from the box than did his opponent, regardless of the result. However, I now realise that, for most posters on here (presumably a reasonable cross-section of AFL fans), a coach can only be considered to have outcoached his opponent if he not only has a better strategy and makes better calls during the game, but his team also wins.

Fair enough, language means what most people think it means. So I was wrong (as I often am: eg, as I was in relation to my negative assessments of Lyon and to CJ and, although I seem to find myself in a minority on here ATM, Robert Eddy as well: I really reckon Eddy should be selected for the GF, but that's a matter for another thread).

However, because it's a bit of a slow day, I will take the opportunity to take issue with your version of what happened on Friday night, which I don't agree with.

I do believe we are a far more talented team overall than the Dogs. I reckon the coaching has a lot to do with why the Dogs are as successful as they are. They are an extremely well-drilled outfit: better than us (as they should be: they have been playing more or less the same style for 4 1/2 seasons now). Moreover, Eade has a high level of strategic nous, and is able to adjust his match day tactics to neutralise the far greater talent possessed by some opposing teams: in particular, Geelong and ourselves.

IMO, Eade almost brought it off on Friday night. I think our players were primed for the game and I don't think the week off was a factor at all: our players and coaching staff are too professional for that to happen.

I do think that the team went out feeling the pressure of expectation: as in 2005, they had had 2 weeks to think about the prospect of being favourites in a match which, if they won, would mean that they would play in (for most of them) their first GF. In that sort of situation, the last thing you want is for your opponents to come out at you like a bull at a gate.

And, of course, that's exactly what happened: the Dogs put enormous pressure on us from the opening bounce and threw our game into disarray. And we started to panic a bit, make mistakes, and put ourselves under even more pressure in a vicious circle.

I'm still not sure if I think the free kick against Lake at the start of the second half was justified or not (I am sure most on here wouldn't have been too approving if a similar kick in a similar situation had been played to Johnson on Dawson). But I am certain it was a massive turning point in the game: the Dogs were set to turn on the pressure again and try to set us into even more panic. Instead, we got the most amazing release of pressure possible.

After this, the Dogs bowed their heads for a bit and we got it together a bit more. But, to the credit of the Dogs and Eade, they stepped up big time and we were still down with a few minutes to go when Gia just missed with a shot on the run that would have put them more than a goal ahead.

IMO it was a tremendous coaching performance by Eade: he didn't do anything amazingly tricky, he just arranged ings to put maximum stress on some of our pressure points and let our nervousness and the weight of expectations create something of a vicious circle.

What exactly were these pressure points?

All game plans have a weakness in them, which is often the flipside of their greatest strength. In our case, the pressure point is what some journos have called our "midget army" of frontline defenders: McQualter, Eddy, Schneider, Ball (when he goes forward) and (when his tackling is on song) Milne.

When these guys are working together well, they make lots of effective tackles, win the ball through turnovers, etc. However, when a team is successful in bypassing them, some of them (particularly Eddy and Schneider on Friday) end up in a bit of a no man's land in which they have to drop back and try to play as midfielders: a role in which they have varying competencies. What gets exposed is that we have a bit of an undermanned midfield relative to other teams, and that an out and out midfield battle - particularly against a team with a lot of quick players across the middle - is not to our advantage.

The Dogs managed to create this situation - through pinpoint passing and the linebreaking runs of Lake and Harbrow and others - and we struggled big time. As we did against the Bombers after quarter time in our two matches this season: although the more skilled Dogs didn't have to take anything like as many risks as the Bombers did.

The Cats also did something similar to us after half time n Rd 14, and will no doubt try it again on Saturday.

Can we counter it? I bloody well hope so.

Perhaps we could adjust the team balance a bit by bringing in one or two more genuine midfielders for Eddy or Milne or both. But that's a big, and enormously risky, call to make at this stage. I wouldn't do it, and I'm pretty sure Lyon wouldn't. We have to go with the game plan we have played all season and play it as well as we can and hope it's good enough. If Kosi and Riewoldt can both kick straight from go to woe, that alone might just do it!!

[Milton66]

Drop Milne? Not as silly as it sounds IMO.

Big finals fail so far.

But I doubt it will happen.

Hope he proves me wrong. I'll take 2 goals from him.

[reincarnated]

I saw an old friend last night who knows GT well.

Funnily enough, it appears GT is aware of this thread. Cannot comment if he's actually read it.

Maybe he doesn't want to comment on it......

Of course GT is aware of this thread.

Hi Grant I love your work keep it up

Signed Grant

[meher baba]

I saw an old friend last night who knows GT well.

Funnily enough, it appears GT is aware of this thread. Cannot comment if he's actually read it.

Maybe he doesn't want to comment on it......

More importantly, does JLH know about it and the serious threat it poses to her long-term status as the hottest topic on SS?

[SENsei]

JLH is the surprise guest at the GF this Saturday, so you guys in attendance can ask her.

She is apparently sharing motorcade with GT....sponsored by Saintsational......

Hopefully the vehicle doesn't run out of petrol halfway around the ground.

.LIAR

[st.byron]

JLH is the surprise guest at the GF this Saturday, so you guys in attendance can ask her.

She is apparently sharing motorcade with GT....sponsored by Saintsational......

Hopefully the vehicle doesn't run out of petrol halfway around the ground.

.LIAR

Apparently they're going lingerie shopping together in Chapel St before the motorcade.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Outcoached..bah humbug....

While a week off is good for the body...IMO it is not so good for footballers minds.

We came out of the blocks slow last week and took half a game to get going.


As to all Eades moves...what were they?? As mentioned by another already he largely just aped Lyon's strategies.

On one hand, I know the above question isn't meant seriously. Anyone who can't give Eade credit for last week isn't likely to be turned around by a post on a message board.

But while IMO, Lyon trumped the league hands down over the course of 2009 for gameplan and tactics, the work or Rodney Eade to shift a team that hadn't come within 25 points in 2 attempts previously to a position where they only lost due to innacuracy is one of the finest single match efforts I've seen from a coach.

As to specific tactics and strategy:
- The Dogs forward zone was anything but an aping of the St Kilda 16,17&18 man versions. They threw 3-4 players at the contest, and were then happy to leave a paddock between that contest and their main spread. On the rare occasions we were able to run and carry past the initial line, we were able to create clear opportunities like the Ray snafu, but watching us spend the 1st quarter hemmed into our own zone (and the game in general trying to use the man-on-man cluster to break a zone) until the coaches were able to explain at qtr time what was happening was frightening.

Better shooting in the 1st quarter and we never recover. For most of the rest of the game, we did an excellent job of ensuring low % shots that mock the scoring shots record, but I credit a lot of our slow start to some very innovative work from Eade.

- Their work defending the wings to deny Reiwoldt space to run into was instrumental in the performance of Morris, which in spite of Roo's 4 goals, is worth of admiration. Denied his usual space, Reiwoldt played a much mroe typical CHF - which brought Lake into the contests and had our two KPP on top of each other. I credit that wing defense to Eade.

- I'd love to see some sort of graphic of who won the clearances where. It seemed to me that in the open spaces, the Dogs had excellent planning for both winning the ball and getting away from opponents. On the boundary line and close to goals, we were able to play "if we don't win the ball, nobody will" to great success.

I thought that was one of the most tactical games I've ever witnessed, as well as one of the most physical, and made sweet by the Saints winning. shifting matchups, players rolled forward and back, and both teams willing to die by the sword - we wanted to get the ball to our keys, and they wanted to use their long kicking, be it at goal or over the top of the Saints' zone.

It was an inspired way to attack the Saints that deserves credit. While I'm sure some will look at the scoreline and say bad kicking is bad football, IMO few teams could have taken that approach, because it required very good kicking to even try - and in the end just wasn't quite good enough.

[saintsRrising]

Outcoached..bah humbug....

While a week off is good for the body...IMO it is not so good for footballers minds.

We came out of the blocks slow last week and took half a game to get going.


As to all Eades moves...what were they?? As mentioned by another already he largely just aped Lyon's strategies.

On one hand, I know the above question isn't meant seriously. Anyone who can't give Eade credit for last week isn't likely to be turned around by a post on a message board.

.

Well yes my post was a bit tongue in cheek ( & I actually rate Eeade as a coach)..as is much of this thread...but in the post referred to I actually do give credit to the Dogs.

then the saints settled, got there mojo back and ground out a win against a very good opponent.

It is notable that both Jonathon Brown and Simon Black both separately stated on Brownlow night that the StKilda v Dogs was one of greatest pressure games that they have ever seen....and that Black stated that he found the game fascinating.

Those that reckon the dogs were easybeats are grossly under-estimating how the Dogs played.

Specifically coaching wise I thought Eade started strongly giving the Dogs the advantage.

But that Lyon then adjusted to things to get the Saints back into the game.

So if you will Eade takes the points for pre-match planning...but Lyon takes the points for match day coaching.

And while Eades first quarter set-ups were very good...I think also that the Saints were full of rust and that many of the stuff-ups had little to do with the set-ups. Their extra numbers further afield certainly caused a number of turnovers...but a large number were due I believe just sloppyness by our players.

Was this due to Preliminary Final Nerves, the week off...the Dogs good tactics.....or a bit of each who knows?

[meher baba]

Here's a nice red, white and black image

[meher baba]

Here's one that's not so nice

[meher baba]

And here's a book

[saintly]

Outcoached..bah humbug....

While a week off is good for the body...IMO it is not so good for footballers minds.

We came out of the blocks slow last week and took half a game to get going.


As to all Eades moves...what were they?? As mentioned by another already he largely just aped Lyon's strategies.

On one hand, I know the above question isn't meant seriously. Anyone who can't give Eade credit for last week isn't likely to be turned around by a post on a message board.

.

Well yes my post was a bit tongue in cheek ( & I actually rate Eeade as a coach)..as is much of this thread...but in the post referred to I actually do give credit to the Dogs.

then the saints settled, got there mojo back and ground out a win against a very good opponent.

It is notable that both Jonathon Brown and Simon Black both separately stated on Brownlow night that the StKilda v Dogs was one of greatest pressure games that they have ever seen....and that Black stated that he found the game fascinating.

Those that reckon the dogs were easybeats are grossly under-estimating how the Dogs played.

Specifically coaching wise I thought Eade started strongly giving the Dogs the advantage.

But that Lyon then adjusted to things to get the Saints back into the game.

So if you will Eade takes the points for pre-match planning...but Lyon takes the points for match day coaching.

And while Eades first quarter set-ups were very good...I think also that the Saints were full of rust and that many of the stuff-ups had little to do with the set-ups. Their extra numbers further afield certainly caused a number of turnovers...but a large number were due I believe just sloppyness by our players.

Was this due to Preliminary Final Nerves, the week off...the Dogs good tactics.....or a bit of each who knows?

the only thing i i would add to this is where in the 1st quart the commentators and maybe Lyon all (i think) stated that it a while to get the match up right for dawson. and that it did take a quater for this to happen.

[Milton66]

Are we Premiers yet?

[desertsaint]

Are we Premiers yet?

don't you look so effin innocent!
this is all YOUR fault!

[BAM! (shhhh)]

then the saints settled, got there mojo back and ground out a win against a very good opponent.

It is notable that both Jonathon Brown and Simon Black both separately stated on Brownlow night that the StKilda v Dogs was one of greatest pressure games that they have ever seen....and that Black stated that he found the game fascinating.

Those that reckon the dogs were easybeats are grossly under-estimating how the Dogs played.

Specifically coaching wise I thought Eade started strongly giving the Dogs the advantage.

But that Lyon then adjusted to things to get the Saints back into the game.

So if you will Eade takes the points for pre-match planning...but Lyon takes the points for match day coaching.

Interesting idea.

As a general rule, I tend to think first qtr is the greatest opportunity a coach has to have an actual impact on the game. As with the dogs zone, it's your chance to roll something out that the opposition is unaware of, and the runners aren't allowed to carry whiteboards - I imagine watching the Saints play into that setup time after time must have been very frustrating for Lyon.

Qtr time, Lyon updates the team, and while it certainly didn't lose all effectiveness (in the 4th qtr once the run decreased it was very prominent again), for quarters 2 and 3, the Saints were certainly ascendant.

How much credit does Lyon get for this? I'm not sure that he did a lot else other than fiddle with Dawson in trying to (unsuccessfully) negate a good defensive setup on Reiwoldt... and that's not a criticism, that's - IMO - good coaching when you've got a side who's performed as well as St Kilda. Ensure the opposition hasn't snagged an advantage, and then let the players do their thing.

Again, not meaning to denegrate Lyon, just think that while Lyon kept on keepin on, Eade delivered as good a coachign performance as most of us lay folk are ever like to witness.

[Milton66]

Are we Premiers yet?

don't you look so effin innocent!
this is all YOUR fault!

Who me?

[joffaboy]

So I think GT was a better coach who was just unluck.

Thoughts?

[desertsaint]

Are we Premiers yet?

don't you look so effin innocent!
this is all YOUR fault!

Who me?

there you go again

[plugger66]

Would we be favourits this week if GT was coach?

[FullMonty]

JLH could share my motor cade anytime!

[Mr Magic]

Would we be favourits this week if GT was coach?

Only if he was allowed to comment on the opposition coach.

[Milton66]

Would we be favourits this week if GT was coach?

Only if he was allowed to comment on the opposition coach.

And he wasn't outcoached.

[markp]

Would we be favourits this week if GT was coach?

Only if he was allowed to comment on the opposition coach.

And he wasn't outcoached.

And with enough luck.