Thought he looked pretty good, got up the ground for some strong marks, broke packs, layed a couple fearsome tackles, troubled the scoreboard and shot a few nice passes...not bad for an ordinary night!Bernard Shakey wrote:Last night Kosi was ordinary along with half a dozen others. If he plays to his abilities next week, we are premiers. End of argument.
st**** you Akker
Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators
- degruch
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- Milton66
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LOL, Kosi could kick 6 next and BS would still trade him because we could now get a better trade for him.degruch wrote:Thought he looked pretty good, got up the ground for some strong marks, broke packs, layed a couple fearsome tackles, troubled the scoreboard and shot a few nice passes...not bad for an ordinary night!Bernard Shakey wrote:Last night Kosi was ordinary along with half a dozen others. If he plays to his abilities next week, we are premiers. End of argument.
Hotel De Los Muertos: Your room is ready... Care to step inside?
saint patrick wrote:[
The bulldogs were brave but don't blame the umpires...
And for you to support this slur on our magnificant captain...
you are a deadset worry...
he's certainly a deadset something...but worry is not the word i would use.....
.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will
"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"
However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"
However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
But you accuse me of having a mental illnessplugger66 wrote: i do wonder about posters who just swear at people without reading the who thread. Do you want a number to get your anger management checked out.
Hypocrite much???
Lance or James??
There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
I was just worried about your anger. I am concerned for you. Its probably because i care about you.joffaboy wrote:But you accuse me of having a mental illnessplugger66 wrote: i do wonder about posters who just swear at people without reading the who thread. Do you want a number to get your anger management checked out.
Hypocrite much???
- Bernard Shakey
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I would never seek to trade a player who is contracted for another year.Milton66 wrote:LOL, Kosi could kick 6 next and BS would still trade him because we could now get a better trade for him. :roll:degruch wrote:Thought he looked pretty good, got up the ground for some strong marks, broke packs, layed a couple fearsome tackles, troubled the scoreboard and shot a few nice passes...not bad for an ordinary night!Bernard Shakey wrote:Last night Kosi was ordinary along with half a dozen others. If he plays to his abilities next week, we are premiers. End of argument.
Kosi is contracted till the end of 2010.
Old enough to repaint, but young enough to sell
But thats actually when you can get more value for them. If they are uncontracted they can just leave for nothing.Bernard Shakey wrote:I would never seek to trade a player who is contracted for another year.Milton66 wrote:LOL, Kosi could kick 6 next and BS would still trade him because we could now get a better trade for him.degruch wrote:Thought he looked pretty good, got up the ground for some strong marks, broke packs, layed a couple fearsome tackles, troubled the scoreboard and shot a few nice passes...not bad for an ordinary night!Bernard Shakey wrote:Last night Kosi was ordinary along with half a dozen others. If he plays to his abilities next week, we are premiers. End of argument.
Kosi is contracted till the end of 2010.
Who asked you anyway?Bernard Shakey wrote:I would never seek to trade a player who is contracted for another year.Milton66 wrote:LOL, Kosi could kick 6 next and BS would still trade him because we could now get a better trade for him.degruch wrote:Thought he looked pretty good, got up the ground for some strong marks, broke packs, layed a couple fearsome tackles, troubled the scoreboard and shot a few nice passes...not bad for an ordinary night!Bernard Shakey wrote:Last night Kosi was ordinary along with half a dozen others. If he plays to his abilities next week, we are premiers. End of argument.
Kosi is contracted till the end of 2010.
What anger P66.plugger66 wrote:I was just worried about your anger. I am concerned for you. Its probably because i care about you.joffaboy wrote:But you accuse me of having a mental illnessplugger66 wrote: i do wonder about posters who just swear at people without reading the who thread. Do you want a number to get your anger management checked out.
Hypocrite much???
I just outlined your modis opperandi and you got very upset and abused me by saying the very serious and very dissapointing accusation of me having a debilitating mental illness.
There was no anger from me. But there was terrible and very hurtful accusations from you. Very hurtful they were as I have family members who have suffered from mental illnesses.
You then try to take the moral ground on some posters who swore at you.
I find your attitude very hypocritical. I am sure you will come back with a sarcastic reply like the one above (you cannot care for me as you dont know me so dont play innocent) - however your holier than thou attitude has been exposed and you dont like it.
Suck it up P66 - you have been shown to be wrong and hypocritical - live with it mate.
Lance or James??
There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
- saintbrat
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No video up so here is rough transcript of what got me upset and just confirmed his BIG mouth status -
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
talking to Dale after game and said He was told " if you bump him and he falls over I'll free kick you
" they St kilda guys bump you or hit you in the chest or hit you from behind- we never got any free kicks, I can't talk about it ( then referral to Roo by Hughes) none of our guys dived I can't talk about it ( trying to back pedal.)
Q- they were punching you?- A: that's part of the game they blufff you and then whack you, heavily scragged of the footy- I'm spewing Mos told me after the game - that's what happens
then claimed Loo break.
and wondered where his protection was....
...................................................................................................
His implication by failing to clarify that it happens WITH ALL TEAMS - was that the saints do it More
But as stated earlier on reflection his view of the Saints is heavily based on being tagged By Bakes..............
But he still implied that the Whole team do it.
Now which game was it that Kosi had his hand held for most of the game
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
talking to Dale after game and said He was told " if you bump him and he falls over I'll free kick you
" they St kilda guys bump you or hit you in the chest or hit you from behind- we never got any free kicks, I can't talk about it ( then referral to Roo by Hughes) none of our guys dived I can't talk about it ( trying to back pedal.)
Q- they were punching you?- A: that's part of the game they blufff you and then whack you, heavily scragged of the footy- I'm spewing Mos told me after the game - that's what happens
then claimed Loo break.
and wondered where his protection was....
...................................................................................................
His implication by failing to clarify that it happens WITH ALL TEAMS - was that the saints do it More
But as stated earlier on reflection his view of the Saints is heavily based on being tagged By Bakes..............
But he still implied that the Whole team do it.
Now which game was it that Kosi had his hand held for most of the game
StReNgTh ThRoUgH LoYaLtY
Rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly..!!
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Rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly..!!
MEMBERSHIP 2014 31,134 Membership 2015 32,746 MEMBERSHIP 2016 - 38,101
MEMBERSHIP 2017 42,095 , Membership 2018 46,998
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lol - they dont dive
Johnson is the biggest diver in the League.
Seemed very happy did Aker. I suppose when you play for yourself as he has done his whole career - that 3 flags will do him and he doesn't care or hurt about last night.
Johnson is the biggest diver in the League.
Seemed very happy did Aker. I suppose when you play for yourself as he has done his whole career - that 3 flags will do him and he doesn't care or hurt about last night.
Lance or James??
There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
Do you really think i was upset By St pat having a go at me. 90% of stuff I write on here is just to get some good discussions going. having a go at his anger management was just to get some nice heated discussion. i dont care what people say about me as i dont know anyone. maybe if i did it might upset me. Hypocritical yes but only because i made some sarcastic comments to the poster. Anyway i like all this stuff. To me anyway it is all in good fun. To others obviously not.joffaboy wrote:What anger P66.plugger66 wrote:I was just worried about your anger. I am concerned for you. Its probably because i care about you.joffaboy wrote:But you accuse me of having a mental illnessplugger66 wrote: i do wonder about posters who just swear at people without reading the who thread. Do you want a number to get your anger management checked out.
Hypocrite much???
I just outlined your modis opperandi and you got very upset and abused me by saying the very serious and very dissapointing accusation of me having a debilitating mental illness.
There was no anger from me. But there was terrible and very hurtful accusations from you. Very hurtful they were as I have family members who have suffered from mental illnesses.
You then try to take the moral ground on some posters who swore at you.
I find your attitude very hypocritical. I am sure you will come back with a sarcastic reply like the one above (you cannot care for me as you dont know me so dont play innocent) - however your holier than thou attitude has been exposed and you dont like it.
Suck it up P66 - you have been shown to be wrong and hypocritical - live with it mate.
- saint patrick
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Hey plugger...takes better people than you make me angry ...I just find your apologist/devils avocate attitude toward our club pathetic...seem to toe the AFL line just to shyte everyone.plugger66 wrote:Do you really think i was upset By St pat having a go at me. 90% of stuff I write on here is just to get some good discussions going. having a go at his anger management was just to get some nice heated discussion. i dont care what people say about me as i dont know anyone. maybe if i did it might upset me. Hypocritical yes but only because i made some sarcastic comments to the poster. Anyway i like all this stuff. To me anyway it is all in good fun. To others obviously not.joffaboy wrote:What anger P66.plugger66 wrote:I was just worried about your anger. I am concerned for you. Its probably because i care about you.joffaboy wrote:But you accuse me of having a mental illnessplugger66 wrote: i do wonder about posters who just swear at people without reading the who thread. Do you want a number to get your anger management checked out.
Hypocrite much???
I just outlined your modis opperandi and you got very upset and abused me by saying the very serious and very dissapointing accusation of me having a debilitating mental illness.
There was no anger from me. But there was terrible and very hurtful accusations from you. Very hurtful they were as I have family members who have suffered from mental illnesses.
You then try to take the moral ground on some posters who swore at you.
I find your attitude very hypocritical. I am sure you will come back with a sarcastic reply like the one above (you cannot care for me as you dont know me so dont play innocent) - however your holier than thou attitude has been exposed and you dont like it.
Suck it up P66 - you have been shown to be wrong and hypocritical - live with it mate.
I don't need any anger management...I don't get angry very often...I tend to get even.
You just don't warrant such a significant reaction.
Never take a backward step even to gain momentum.....
'It's OK to have the capabilities and abilities, but you've got to get it done." Terry Daniher 05
"We have beauty in our captain and we have a true leader in our coach. Our time will come"
Thinline.Post 09 Grand final.
'It's OK to have the capabilities and abilities, but you've got to get it done." Terry Daniher 05
"We have beauty in our captain and we have a true leader in our coach. Our time will come"
Thinline.Post 09 Grand final.
P66 - of course it is good fun and my post above was a little tongue in cheek - just as my post about your posting style was.plugger66 wrote:Do you really think i was upset By St pat having a go at me. 90% of stuff I write on here is just to get some good discussions going. having a go at his anger management was just to get some nice heated discussion. i dont care what people say about me as i dont know anyone. maybe if i did it might upset me. Hypocritical yes but only because i made some sarcastic comments to the poster. Anyway i like all this stuff. To me anyway it is all in good fun. To others obviously not.joffaboy wrote:What anger P66.plugger66 wrote:I was just worried about your anger. I am concerned for you. Its probably because i care about you.joffaboy wrote:But you accuse me of having a mental illnessplugger66 wrote: i do wonder about posters who just swear at people without reading the who thread. Do you want a number to get your anger management checked out.
Hypocrite much???
I just outlined your modis opperandi and you got very upset and abused me by saying the very serious and very dissapointing accusation of me having a debilitating mental illness.
There was no anger from me. But there was terrible and very hurtful accusations from you. Very hurtful they were as I have family members who have suffered from mental illnesses.
You then try to take the moral ground on some posters who swore at you.
I find your attitude very hypocritical. I am sure you will come back with a sarcastic reply like the one above (you cannot care for me as you dont know me so dont play innocent) - however your holier than thou attitude has been exposed and you dont like it.
Suck it up P66 - you have been shown to be wrong and hypocritical - live with it mate.
Too many get too carried away with a football forum.
We have GF to play in.
YOu beauty
GO SAINTS.
Lance or James??
There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
- The Saintsational Man
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Mate i love our club. i am not going to say more than you because i dont know how much you love them but if it is more than me you must be a great supporter. i just choose to look at both sides of every issue. i dont automatically think the opposition is wrong or the AFL is wrong.saint patrick wrote:Hey plugger...takes better people than you make me angry ...I just find your apologist/devils avocate attitude toward our club pathetic...seem to toe the AFL line just to shyte everyone.plugger66 wrote:Do you really think i was upset By St pat having a go at me. 90% of stuff I write on here is just to get some good discussions going. having a go at his anger management was just to get some nice heated discussion. i dont care what people say about me as i dont know anyone. maybe if i did it might upset me. Hypocritical yes but only because i made some sarcastic comments to the poster. Anyway i like all this stuff. To me anyway it is all in good fun. To others obviously not.joffaboy wrote:What anger P66.plugger66 wrote:I was just worried about your anger. I am concerned for you. Its probably because i care about you.joffaboy wrote:But you accuse me of having a mental illnessplugger66 wrote: i do wonder about posters who just swear at people without reading the who thread. Do you want a number to get your anger management checked out.
Hypocrite much???
I just outlined your modis opperandi and you got very upset and abused me by saying the very serious and very dissapointing accusation of me having a debilitating mental illness.
There was no anger from me. But there was terrible and very hurtful accusations from you. Very hurtful they were as I have family members who have suffered from mental illnesses.
You then try to take the moral ground on some posters who swore at you.
I find your attitude very hypocritical. I am sure you will come back with a sarcastic reply like the one above (you cannot care for me as you dont know me so dont play innocent) - however your holier than thou attitude has been exposed and you dont like it.
Suck it up P66 - you have been shown to be wrong and hypocritical - live with it mate.
I don't need any anger management...I don't get angry very often...I tend to get even.
You just don't warrant such a significant reaction.
People were saying the game has become soft because Zac got a couple of weeks for ironing out a player but then we want Rooy to get a free for soft crap like what happened. It was a free and the umpire was right but it is football and those things happen all the time. i just dont like players getting frees for that but not once was it Rooy fault. matter of fact today i had an arguement with a dogs supporter for saying Rooy acted. i dont agree with that at all
But that's the whole point, the free kick was not for the soft hit itself, it was because he blatantly did it when warned not to...plugger66 wrote:Mate i love our club. i am not going to say more than you because i dont know how much you love them but if it is more than me you must be a great supporter. i just choose to look at both sides of every issue. i dont automatically think the opposition is wrong or the AFL is wrong.saint patrick wrote:Hey plugger...takes better people than you make me angry ...I just find your apologist/devils avocate attitude toward our club pathetic...seem to toe the AFL line just to shyte everyone.plugger66 wrote:Do you really think i was upset By St pat having a go at me. 90% of stuff I write on here is just to get some good discussions going. having a go at his anger management was just to get some nice heated discussion. i dont care what people say about me as i dont know anyone. maybe if i did it might upset me. Hypocritical yes but only because i made some sarcastic comments to the poster. Anyway i like all this stuff. To me anyway it is all in good fun. To others obviously not.joffaboy wrote:What anger P66.plugger66 wrote:I was just worried about your anger. I am concerned for you. Its probably because i care about you.joffaboy wrote:But you accuse me of having a mental illnessplugger66 wrote: i do wonder about posters who just swear at people without reading the who thread. Do you want a number to get your anger management checked out.
Hypocrite much???
I just outlined your modis opperandi and you got very upset and abused me by saying the very serious and very dissapointing accusation of me having a debilitating mental illness.
There was no anger from me. But there was terrible and very hurtful accusations from you. Very hurtful they were as I have family members who have suffered from mental illnesses.
You then try to take the moral ground on some posters who swore at you.
I find your attitude very hypocritical. I am sure you will come back with a sarcastic reply like the one above (you cannot care for me as you dont know me so dont play innocent) - however your holier than thou attitude has been exposed and you dont like it.
Suck it up P66 - you have been shown to be wrong and hypocritical - live with it mate.
I don't need any anger management...I don't get angry very often...I tend to get even.
You just don't warrant such a significant reaction.
People were saying the game has become soft because Zac got a couple of weeks for ironing out a player but then we want Rooy to get a free for soft crap like what happened. It was a free and the umpire was right but it is football and those things happen all the time. i just dont like players getting frees for that but not once was it Rooy fault. matter of fact today i had an arguement with a dogs supporter for saying Rooy acted. i dont agree with that at all
I know that but we arent in a classroom and the umpires arent teachers. The rule is a bit soft IMO. It is footy afterall so players are expecting pushing and shoving. And if Rooys was a free and it was to the letter of the law why was it reversed or not given at all after kosi did the same thing to Lake.
- degruch
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It doesn't matter how soft the rule is...if it is a rule, and it is being watched, and indiscressions happen several times before action is taken, it is deserved. The Dogs were lucky 5 frees and 5 goals weren't kicked because of their off-the-ball roughing up. Since when is football about playing the man?plugger66 wrote:I know that but we arent in a classroom and the umpires arent teachers. The rule is a bit soft IMO. It is footy afterall so players are expecting pushing and shoving. And if Rooys was a free and it was to the letter of the law why was it reversed or not given at all after kosi did the same thing to Lake.
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[
i just choose to look at both sides of every issue. i dont automatically think the opposition is wrong or the AFL is wrong.
Plugger the trouble is you automatically say the opposition is RIGHT. I suggest most would enjoy some of your comments to be positive rather than EVERYTIME taking the contrary view - pity because you probably would have some valid comments. We just see the cr#p ones all the time. Can't you get an argument at home
i just choose to look at both sides of every issue. i dont automatically think the opposition is wrong or the AFL is wrong.
Plugger the trouble is you automatically say the opposition is RIGHT. I suggest most would enjoy some of your comments to be positive rather than EVERYTIME taking the contrary view - pity because you probably would have some valid comments. We just see the cr#p ones all the time. Can't you get an argument at home
And Brian isn't a naughty boy? He was warned, it didn't come from nowhere...plugger66 wrote:I know that but we arent in a classroom and the umpires arent teachers. The rule is a bit soft IMO. It is footy afterall so players are expecting pushing and shoving. And if Rooys was a free and it was to the letter of the law why was it reversed or not given at all after kosi did the same thing to Lake.
Players bump all the time. why pay that then not reverse it for Kosi. bringing in that rule just means more players are breaking the rules but only a few are penalised. People have a go at me for agreeing with everyting the AFL does. i disagree with an AFL rule but still i am wrong. it is only my opinion that the rule is silly but even more stupid was lake. that i do agree with.degruch wrote:It doesn't matter how soft the rule is...if it is a rule, and it is being watched, and indiscressions happen several times before action is taken, it is deserved. The Dogs were lucky 5 frees and 5 goals weren't kicked because of their off-the-ball roughing up. Since when is football about playing the man?plugger66 wrote:I know that but we arent in a classroom and the umpires arent teachers. The rule is a bit soft IMO. It is footy afterall so players are expecting pushing and shoving. And if Rooys was a free and it was to the letter of the law why was it reversed or not given at all after kosi did the same thing to Lake.
f*** ME DEAD!!plugger66 wrote:Look i agree he is stupid to do it 3 times but i would hate us to lose the Gf next week because of something that soft.Saintschampions08 wrote:Did he do it at least 3 times before that?plugger66 wrote:Because he is stupid obviously. He shouldnt have done it but i dont like frees for that sort of thing especially since Kosi then did the same thing to lake.Teflon wrote:the only ridicilous thing about the free was that a supposed AA fullback would do a stupid thing AFTER being warned by an umpire that a free would be paid..........why would you do it?plugger66 wrote:They lost by 7 points and the free was ridiculous. Im pretty sure most of us wouldnt be in a great mood.
Where do you draw the line?
I'm pretty sure it stopped him doing it again didn't it?
FINALLY AFTER ALL THESE BLOODY YEARS THE SAINTS FINALLY GET THE GOOD END OF THE STICK AND YOU STICK YOUR BOOT IN. YOUR THE ONE THAT TELLS US WEEK IN WEEK OUT THAT WE SHOULD NEVER COMPLAIGN ABOUT THE UMPIRES AND NOW YOU SAY THEY WERE STIFFED BY THE UMPIRES.
PLUGGER66 YOUR THE BIGGEST WANKER THIS FORUM HAS EVER SEEN!
(if you keep physcially getting into a player after a crack down on this and been warned a few times already you deserve everything you get. Aker your a moron!)
btw mods I don't care if I get a warning for this, plugger66 is everything I have said and more.
GO SAINTs!
FQF
loyal in the good times and bad
In richo I trust
2013 trade/draft best ever?
Billings - future brownlow medallist Longer - future best ruck
Dunstan - future captain Eli - future cult hero
Acres - future norm smith
loyal in the good times and bad
In richo I trust
2013 trade/draft best ever?
Billings - future brownlow medallist Longer - future best ruck
Dunstan - future captain Eli - future cult hero
Acres - future norm smith
- degruch
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Kosi did it in isolation...Lake and Harbrow (?) did it all night until the free was paid. The hypocricy in your argument comes with the crud you spewed about Zac's report earlier this year...it's wrong to go the man if you're a Saints player, it's OK if you're a Bulldogs player. Are you sure you support St Kilda, or are you just on here to s***-stir?plugger66 wrote:Players bump all the time. why pay that then not reverse it for Kosi. bringing in that rule just means more players are breaking the rules but only a few are penalised. People have a go at me for agreeing with everyting the AFL does. i disagree with an AFL rule but still i am wrong. it is only my opinion that the rule is silly but even more stupid was lake. that i do agree with.degruch wrote:It doesn't matter how soft the rule is...if it is a rule, and it is being watched, and indiscressions happen several times before action is taken, it is deserved. The Dogs were lucky 5 frees and 5 goals weren't kicked because of their off-the-ball roughing up. Since when is football about playing the man?plugger66 wrote:I know that but we arent in a classroom and the umpires arent teachers. The rule is a bit soft IMO. It is footy afterall so players are expecting pushing and shoving. And if Rooys was a free and it was to the letter of the law why was it reversed or not given at all after kosi did the same thing to Lake.