Another GT "Gem"... I agree 100%!

This unofficial St Kilda Saints fan forum is for people of all ages to chat Saints Footy and all posts must be respectful.

Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
barks4eva
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 10748
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 12:39pm
Has thanked: 190 times
Been thanked: 92 times

Post: # 820280Post barks4eva »

saintsRrising wrote:

Why would I deny it??

Can you name one coach in the entire history of AFL/VFL that has not changed and evolved their gameplan as they have gone along???

Indeed one of my criticisms of GT was that he was too slow to change as the game changed around him.

Why is Lyon expected to have had everything locked in on his first day on the job?

I find it amusing that the Lyon knockers expect Lyon to not change things....and who for some strange reason see Lyon changing things as a weakness rather than as a strength.

For example had Clarkson perfected his rolling zone then? = no.

Have teams now worked out how to combat the rolling zone? = yes

2007 saw the Cats re-invent themselves with a new game style. Was Lyon meant to have had a crystal ball to have predicted this?


Lyon clearly had vision on how he wanted the team to play.
He said early on that he wanted :

* ruckman
* more run thru the middle
* more forward pressure.
* the team to be competent at all three phases of the game: ie when you have the ball, when the opposition have the ball (previously the Saints were poor in this regard) & when the ball is in dispute


He has clearly delivered on all of these.

That he has evolved this vision is to be expected. ie corralling being tried...but with the game having moved on it was found wanting, or even perhaps that it was always flawed.

But that is what a good coach does..has a vision, tries things, and then adapts, rejects and improves...and not just the gameplan but players too

That the GT bashers pain Lyon as incompetent in 2007 is farcical...

There were many flaws that needed to be rectified....in player personnel, player commitment, gameplan...player conditioning.

Lyon has patience too....you can look at the list and see players being developed for every niche....short-term and long-term.

You may remember that Misson stated when he started that he would take years to undo the damage that had been done. The Lyon bashers trotted this out as an excuse of Lyon's...but time has instead demonstrated the incompetence of player conditioning under GT and that the high incidence of soft tissue injuries under GT's "management" were not due to "bad luck" but rather was due to incompetence.
sRs, seriously u r 100% right, but I'm afraid your intelligence is wasted on these nuffies and goofballs, they'll never wake up so why bother.

When Lyon arrived he read the riot at to the recruiting department and wanted to know who was responsible for the shambolic mess of recent times, of course this was Thomas and Rendell.

He also was also very annoyed and concerned in relation to how unfit and poorly conditioned our players were, again a direct result of Thomas who controlled the entire football department and in his own words Thomas said "fitness and conditioning staff are overrated".

This naive and incompetent approach to the fitness levels and conditioning of our players by Thomas who was ultimately responsible for this, probably cost us one if not two premierships!

Ross Lyon immediately set out to clean up this mess by raising our players fitness levels and bringing in Misson to address these areas of concern.

The players themselves said that their first pre season under Lyon was the toughest they'd experienced, as they'd never had proper conditioning prior to this.

2007 was a direct result of the mess that Lyon inherited and that we missed the finals had really not much to do with him, the decline had already set in,

What is truly remarkable is how quickly this has been turned around with astute recruiting, increased fitness and conditioning and a professionally run football department, not the dominion of one man.

Robert Harvey after one season when we'd finished 9th in 2007 said that Lyon is the best coach he's ever had!

Now this will be way too hard for the laterally challenged numbnuts on here to grasp, but Lyon was a brilliant coach from day one.

The only difference is now he's had a chance to clean up the mess he said at the time, would take at least two years to clean up!

Robert Harvey knows his football, the numbnuts on here know SFA!

sRs save your energy, what's the point?, the dumbed down dingbat drivel from these laterally challenged goofballs is way too nauseating, they'll never get it, wouldn't get the drum even with a brass band up them!

Any chance we can let this thread disappear so we can all focus on one of the most important games in our club's history.

This thread is a disgrace!


DO THE MATHS AND THE SQUARES ARE ALL ROOTED.
asiu

Post: # 820283Post asiu »

just a bigger picture type of guy :) milt

may as well concentrate on the important stuff


User avatar
matrix
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 21475
Joined: Mon 21 May 2007 1:55pm
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post: # 820287Post matrix »

barks4eva wrote:
and in his own words Thomas said "fitness and conditioning staff are overrated".

This naive and incompetent approach to the fitness levels and conditioning of our players by Thomas who was ultimately responsible for this, probably cost us one if not two premierships!
i still cannot believe he actually said the first quote...crazyness!!
decent coaches wouldnt have that attitude or way of thinking

and ours doesnt 8-)


User avatar
SENsei
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7129
Joined: Mon 05 Jun 2006 8:25pm
Been thanked: 2 times

Post: # 820290Post SENsei »

This thread is a win.


Poster formerly known as SENsaintsational. More wisdom. More knowledge. Less name.
User avatar
rodgerfox
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 9059
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 9:10am
Has thanked: 425 times
Been thanked: 327 times

Post: # 820294Post rodgerfox »

barks4eva wrote:
Now this will be way too hard for the laterally challenged numbnuts on here to grasp, but Lyon was a brilliant coach from day one.
That is simply incorrect.

The Preseident publicly criticised our style of play.

Lyon obviously posesses the ability to be agile and change tact - but he pushed into doing so. What he brought to the table was a failure, and wasn't working.

I'm sorry to say, but those who saw brilliance in Ross Lyon from day 1 - were plain and simply wrong.

He wasn't brilliant. He wasn't getting the players heads right. His game plan reeked.

He is now, sure. And he deserves full credit for doing so. But he wasn't good from the start.

That is simply wrong.


User avatar
rodgerfox
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 9059
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 9:10am
Has thanked: 425 times
Been thanked: 327 times

Post: # 820297Post rodgerfox »

Milton66 wrote: Given your views toady, and with the benefit of hindsight, do you still think it was the wrong call to sack GT in 07.. one year too soon? And do you honestly believe that given the injuries in 07 that GT would have done any better?
Yes, GT would have done better in 07. Of course he would have. He had the runs on the board with being competitive with injuries.

But we wouldn't have won the flag.

An injury stricken list following a game style that is second nature to them would have far exceeded an injury stricken team playing a flawed game style that is new to them.

Had we not sacked the coach in 07 we would have performed far better in 07 than we did under a new coach.


It has nothing to do with GT, it never has - I've said this the entire time. It was changing coaches at a time when our list due to the AFL system was about to go through an imbalance in age brackets.


User avatar
rodgerfox
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 9059
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 9:10am
Has thanked: 425 times
Been thanked: 327 times

Post: # 820298Post rodgerfox »

saintsRrising wrote:
rodgerfox wrote:

He needed to change it, and I believe was directed to do so by the Board.
I do not believe that Westaway is stupid enough to get involved with trying to make coaching decisions.

That RF and MB are trying to paint Westaway as the puppet master of Lyon pulling the coaching strings is a ridiculous concept.


What Westaway & the FF Board quite rightly has done is provide a very good environment for the coach to coach in..and to support him as the coach.


The Full Field Press will have come from the Football Department...and not from the Boardroom,
Huh??

Not sure what you're reading, but I noticed you've referred to me.

Better read my posts again because you're quite clearly confused.


User avatar
bozza1980
Club Player
Posts: 1688
Joined: Thu 27 Jan 2005 3:42pm
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 6 times

Post: # 820305Post bozza1980 »

barks4eva wrote: Now this will be way too hard for the laterally challenged numbnuts on here to grasp, but Lyon was a brilliant coach from day one.
I must be one of those numbnuts.

I don't believe Lyon was a brilliant coach from day one, I don't think any coach can be.

Mind you, I think he now is or is becoming so.


User avatar
Milton66
SS Life Member
Posts: 3521
Joined: Tue 19 May 2009 9:53pm
Location: None of your goddam business

Post: # 820310Post Milton66 »

Milton has left the building. Thank you all and sundry.

Please turn out the lights.

Time to focus on Friday nite!

:)


Hotel De Los Muertos: Your room is ready... Care to step inside?
User avatar
SENsei
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7129
Joined: Mon 05 Jun 2006 8:25pm
Been thanked: 2 times

Post: # 820315Post SENsei »

Milton66 wrote:Milton has left the building. Thank you all and sundry.

Please turn out the lights.

Time to focus on Friday nite!

:)
Say it ain't so Milt! Say it ain't so.


Poster formerly known as SENsaintsational. More wisdom. More knowledge. Less name.
asiu

Post: # 820317Post asiu »

the lights were already out

thats what we are trying to do ....get em back on , so u people stop hitt'n your shins on the furniture

:)






although barks will need glass coke bottles strapped to his head ....he wouldn't see a globe with a strobe kit up him


User avatar
Milton66
SS Life Member
Posts: 3521
Joined: Tue 19 May 2009 9:53pm
Location: None of your goddam business

Post: # 820335Post Milton66 »

Sorry, I forgot my car keys... :lol:


Hotel De Los Muertos: Your room is ready... Care to step inside?
bob__71
Club Player
Posts: 1008
Joined: Thu 06 Jan 2005 3:40pm

Post: # 820343Post bob__71 »

I dont think it was lack of conditioning staff which caused StKildas injuries. I think it was the game plan.


User avatar
Beekay
SS Life Member
Posts: 3336
Joined: Mon 22 Nov 2004 1:35pm

Post: # 820347Post Beekay »

better things to talk about


User avatar
SENsei
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7129
Joined: Mon 05 Jun 2006 8:25pm
Been thanked: 2 times

Post: # 820350Post SENsei »

Beekay wrote:better things to talk about
Like Ugg Boots.


Poster formerly known as SENsaintsational. More wisdom. More knowledge. Less name.
joffaboy
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 20200
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 1:57pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post: # 820356Post joffaboy »

saintsRrising wrote:

You may remember that Misson stated when he started that he would take years to undo the damage that had been done. The Lyon bashers trotted this out as an excuse of Lyon's...but time has instead demonstrated the incompetence of player conditioning under GT and that the high incidence of soft tissue injuries under GT's "management" were not due to "bad luck" but rather was due to incompetence.
This is all that needs to be said.

It is a fact - it is not supposition - it is not hypothetical - it is plain unaldulterated fact.

GT and his regime cruelled us of winning a flag because of incompetent "training services".

2007 was a write off because Lyon couldn't get a team on the field and he still managed ninth.

2008 big heads like Dal Santo and Milne wouldn't buy in and got dropped.

Dal Santo acknowledged this as his wake up call last night while being named AA. (Milne was also nominated as AA but missed out).

Now we have a AFL level fit team, playing for the team (not for the messiah coach) and looking to team achievements (not the usual St.Kilda cult of personality, indivisual achievements).

Lyon has melded the raw material gifted to Thomas into a team capable of winning the flag - our best opportunity since god knows when - and at the same time changed the club ethos and culture from individual to team.

If there was an AA coach - Lyon would be it easily.

Oh and GT was sacked in 2006 not 2007.


Lance or James??

There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
User avatar
SENsei
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7129
Joined: Mon 05 Jun 2006 8:25pm
Been thanked: 2 times

Post: # 820365Post SENsei »

joffaboy wrote:Oh and GT was sacked in 2006 not 2007.
In fact, was it this week three years ago?

Doesn't time fly!!


Poster formerly known as SENsaintsational. More wisdom. More knowledge. Less name.
plugger66
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 50626
Joined: Mon 26 Feb 2007 8:15pm
Location: oakleigh

Post: # 820367Post plugger66 »

I think GT should be able to comment on other coaches.


User avatar
marksnsparks
Club Player
Posts: 506
Joined: Sat 28 Jul 2007 8:09pm
Location: Mentone

Post: # 820368Post marksnsparks »

Seriously folks, are the initials GT, Saintsational code for "add an extra 18 pages of drivel to a thread"?

Can't beleive it's got to 20 pages. It's got more of a mind of it's own than Banger's hair.


joffaboy
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 20200
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 1:57pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post: # 820401Post joffaboy »

marksnsparks wrote:Seriously folks, are the initials GT, Saintsational code for "add an extra 18 pages of drivel to a thread"?

Can't beleive it's got to 20 pages. It's got more of a mind of it's own than Banger's hair.
GT rivals JLH's arse for number of pages on threads.

Disturbing isn't it??? :? :?


Lance or James??

There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
asiu

Post: # 820402Post asiu »

I think it was the game plan.
if you mean young minds and bodies playing a mature mind and body style , then i agree

we should have run around em , not through em


but that was bundys gig as i understand it


User avatar
SENsei
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7129
Joined: Mon 05 Jun 2006 8:25pm
Been thanked: 2 times

Post: # 820406Post SENsei »

joffaboy wrote:
marksnsparks wrote:Seriously folks, are the initials GT, Saintsational code for "add an extra 18 pages of drivel to a thread"?

Can't beleive it's got to 20 pages. It's got more of a mind of it's own than Banger's hair.
GT rivals JLH's arse for number of pages on threads.

Disturbing isn't it??? :? :?
I'd prefer JLH's rear to GT's rear any day.

However, I think GT has a very nice rack......


Poster formerly known as SENsaintsational. More wisdom. More knowledge. Less name.
User avatar
meher baba
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7223
Joined: Mon 14 Aug 2006 6:49am
Location: Tasmania
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 516 times

Post: # 820407Post meher baba »

joffaboy wrote:
saintsRrising wrote:

You may remember that Misson stated when he started that he would take years to undo the damage that had been done. The Lyon bashers trotted this out as an excuse of Lyon's...but time has instead demonstrated the incompetence of player conditioning under GT and that the high incidence of soft tissue injuries under GT's "management" were not due to "bad luck" but rather was due to incompetence.
This is all that needs to be said.

It is a fact - it is not supposition - it is not hypothetical - it is plain unaldulterated fact.
No, it is not a fact. Not even close to one IMO.

Misson's statement was just an opinion: and a rather self-serving one. If I wanted to be unkind, I could translate it as "if there is a rapid improvement here, I'm a genius, but if there isn't, then blame my predecessors, not me."

Our problems with soft tissue injuries were most marked among a few players: Harvey, X, Raph, Kosi and perhaps a couple more who I don't recall right now. I've always assumed that Max's proneness to injury was more about the sorts of contact situations he put himself into, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Then there's ball, but is OP a "soft tissue" injury? I'm not a medical expert, but I thought it was a sort of overuse syndrome.

Did Riewoldt, Dal, Lenny, Joey, BJ, Milne, Gehrig, Blake, Baker or Sam Fisher (to name but a few) have a lot of soft tissue injuries under GT? I dont' remember it that way, but maybe I'm wrong.

Anyway, unless we see a player's hamstring go during a game, how do we know whether or not it was a soft tissue injury? The club is always pretty evasive in what information it puts out about injuries.

Players like Gllbert, Gardi, Milne, Kosi and Lenny have all missed games through injury this season, for minor injuries I'm not entirely certain about, but could have involved soft tissues. Of these, only Kosi was a regular absentee under GT (and more often for contact injuries than soft tissue problems: although he had his share of the latter).

Harvey and X haven't been playing this season, so their lack of problems with soft tissue injuries can't be seen as a credit to Lyon or Misson.

Another thing to note is that a lot of work has been put into improving the playing surface at Docklands and my impression is that players from all clubs are experiencing fewer injuries on average there than was the case in previous years.

As with most things in life, the situation with injuries isn't quite as clear cut as the black and white thinkers on this forum wish to portray it.


"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."
- Jonathan Swift
asiu

Post: # 820409Post asiu »

In fact, was it this week three years ago?
was the 12th i thought , it was always under the 'Who is online ' section of our forum index ...with the ......most users ever online at 414 odd


now for some weird reason it says
Most users ever online was 313 on Tue 01 Sep 9:56 am
what happened on the 1-9 ?



hmmm, talk about rewriting history :roll:


joffaboy
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 20200
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 1:57pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post: # 820423Post joffaboy »

meher baba wrote:
joffaboy wrote:
saintsRrising wrote:

You may remember that Misson stated when he started that he would take years to undo the damage that had been done. The Lyon bashers trotted this out as an excuse of Lyon's...but time has instead demonstrated the incompetence of player conditioning under GT and that the high incidence of soft tissue injuries under GT's "management" were not due to "bad luck" but rather was due to incompetence.
This is all that needs to be said.

It is a fact - it is not supposition - it is not hypothetical - it is plain unaldulterated fact.
No, it is not a fact. Not even close to one IMO.

Misson's statement was just an opinion: and a rather self-serving one. If I wanted to be unkind, I could translate it as "if there is a rapid improvement here, I'm a genius, but if there isn't, then blame my predecessors, not me."

Our problems with soft tissue injuries were most marked among a few players: Harvey, X, Raph, Kosi and perhaps a couple more who I don't recall right now. I've always assumed that Max's proneness to injury was more about the sorts of contact situations he put himself into, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Then there's ball, but is OP a "soft tissue" injury? I'm not a medical expert, but I thought it was a sort of overuse syndrome.

Did Riewoldt, Dal, Lenny, Joey, BJ, Milne, Gehrig, Blake, Baker or Sam Fisher (to name but a few) have a lot of soft tissue injuries under GT? I dont' remember it that way, but maybe I'm wrong.

Anyway, unless we see a player's hamstring go during a game, how do we know whether or not it was a soft tissue injury? The club is always pretty evasive in what information it puts out about injuries.

Players like Gllbert, Gardi, Milne, Kosi and Lenny have all missed games through injury this season, for minor injuries I'm not entirely certain about, but could have involved soft tissues. Of these, only Kosi was a regular absentee under GT (and more often for contact injuries than soft tissue problems: although he had his share of the latter).

Harvey and X haven't been playing this season, so their lack of problems with soft tissue injuries can't be seen as a credit to Lyon or Misson.

Another thing to note is that a lot of work has been put into improving the playing surface at Docklands and my impression is that players from all clubs are experiencing fewer injuries on average there than was the case in previous years.

As with most things in life, the situation with injuries isn't quite as clear cut as the black and white thinkers on this forum wish to portray it.
Most incredible load of revisionism I have ever read.

ITIS A KNOWN FACT THAT WE HAD HUGE SOFT TISSUE INJURY PROBLEMS DURING THE INCOMPETANT RULE OF THOMAS.

I find it incredible that acolytes of the former coach would even begin to try to defend the huge injury toll we had under Thomas.

And to add to this total pile of steaming excretia, you try to attack Mission (self serving my fat arse - there was no a skerrick of fitness data on any of the players FFS :roll: ).

It is a known fact that RL was appalled at the fitness level of the players. After coming from a preofessional, premiership winning club, to one where, every second player was breaking down with injury.

And many injuries that are not just soft tissue can be traced back to poor and incompetent training practices. Many stress fractures and other skeletal issues can be associated with poor fitness practices..

It is an absolute fact that Lyon remarked that the training and fitness regime at the club was so poor that they had to go back to basics - some meat and potatoes, as he put it - to get a sembalence of fitness into the team.

He also recruited Misson because he saw the results in Sydney.

For you to deny this - and then to try and attack Misson (likely because he is making your hero look incompetent and the unprofessional insider he was) just shown how deluded you are, and how far you will go to protect your hero's legacy, and your pitiful ego.

Go back to peddling your SACK LYON mantra. You will never live that piece of idiocy down, even if you do try to change history to suit your own agenda.

Fair Dinkum, some people are incredibly into factual denial. :roll:


Lance or James??

There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
Post Reply