Another GT "Gem"... I agree 100%!

[matrix]

and thats exactly what i mean....
i aint biting

[markp]

You don't come here to discuss, you come here to troll, to inflame.

Why?

It somehow amuses you.... evidently to an unhealthy extent.

You probably enjoy imagining your place high above all the 'cretins and morons'...

And let's not forget the liars.

Did someone lie to to you and break your little heart once?

How does this, in any way, shape or form, relate to football?

It's full of air and I'm kicking it around?

[stinger]

Thanks for finding this one.

It highlights how much of a liar WayneJudson is....

you're not as silly as some posters think now are you???

You're almost as silly as him

....oh well......add you....and we are three peas in a pod then mate.......it seems the real meaning of my post flew by you to the keeper....only to be expected of course.....


how you been....?

[meher baba]

The only thing that ever makes me want to respond to these sorts of silly threads is the sort of rubbish that others post along the lines of

"GT failed"

"GT took us in the wrong direction"

"GT destroyed our list"

"We would have won the flag in 2004 or 2005 except for GT"

etc, etc.

Sorry, but it's all utter, utter crap.

Ask any neutral/objective AFL person: try the likes of Leigh Matthews, or Mike Sheahan, or Terry Wallace or whoever you like. And ask some of the past/present senior players like Riewoldt, Lenny, Hamill, etc.

Most of them would probably admit to not liking GT very much, because he is undoubtedly a highly abrasive character. Most would also agree that he was a dodgy choice of coach for the Saints, given his lack of experience.

But most of them would also admit that he did rather well. He took a team of regular losers that had been coached extremely poorly by Watson, capitalised on the wave of early draft picks (unless, like some on here, you believe that we picked the wrong guys), and got himself some pretty good help in the form of Bundy, T Dahaner, etc.

He then took the club from absolute rock bottom in 2002 to being one kick away from a GF in 2004 and then took us to the finals in the next two seasons. No other coach of a club that has bounced along the bottom picking up early draft picks has managed this sort of rapid turnaround (although to be fair, none of the other coaches already had Hamill, Gehrig, Kosi and Riewoldt on their books when they arrived at the club).

Look at Carlton and Richmond and Melbourne and other clubs that have appear to have kept on tanking to get early draft picks (of course, thanks to Demetriou's reassurances, we know that they weren't tanking, and neither were we in 2000-02). They didn't bounce back up like we did: Richmond has never even looked like getting close.

It's a bloody good record for a coach, and one that Lyon hasn't bettered yet (although we all hope/expect he will do so over the next few weeks).

I don't know why some on here are so obsessed with endlessly bagging GT and his record. Some of them have almost made it into a sort of personal religion.

And, as is the case with most religions, keeping the faith requires a continual reinvention of history. So where posters used to go on and on like a broken recored about how GT ruined the list (sometimes moving on to a discussion of how we ought to trade Dal and Kosi, get rid of McQualter and Raph, etc.), they now stop talking about that (not surprising when you consider that 15 of the 22 guys who played so well for us on Sunday - including all the top performers - were already on the list when GT was sacked).

Or, as I have seen on this thread, our 2005 PF loss is somehow remembered as being a last quarter collapse after we were set to win - and this was somehow lost in the coach's box - whereas in reality it was a dour struggle for three quarters after which we went into the last quarter battered and bruised with a slender lead and were blown away (ie, not dissimilar to the 1997 GF).

Or, as I have read again in this thread, memories of how all our most serious injuries which ruined our chances were all due to lack of proper conditioning and injury management. The reality is that the really crippling ones for our team were contact injuries: Riewoldt twice in 2005, Kosi in late 2005 and then Gia's dog act in 2006, Sam Fisher late in 2005, Hamill in 2005 and then terminally against the Cats in 2006, Lenny and Goose in 2006.

That some of you keep churning these memories over and over in their heads in highly distorted forms, and can't let them go, suggests to me that this really is a sort of a religion: perhaps almost a cult.

A point of comparison. If I were a Carlton supporter (perish the thought), I'd probably have a pretty negative memory of Pagan's term at the club. All those draft picks, all that promise and the team never even got to the finals: quite a contrast to GT's performances. But I would not expect - if I went onto the Blues fan forum right now - to find even one thread about Pagan. I think the Carlton fans have totally moved on from Pagan.

Come on guys, get over it, move on: admit that GT was quite a reasonable coach and took us to some reasonable destinations, but not the ultimate goal. Perhaps Lyon will now: I sure hope he will. But if he doesn't, I'm certainly not going to bag him, because I think he has done some excellent things at the club as well.

Anyway, enough already.

[stinger]

whilst on the subject of former officialsi see that that sleaze buttarse is going to sail to some desert island so as not to watch us at all......loser....

[SENsei]

whilst on the subject of former officialsi see that that sleaze buttarse is going to sail to some desert island so as not to watch us at all......loser....

I see also that poor Rodney has split from his second wife, Susie, after leaving Evelyn for her. Thought I hadn't seen Rodney in the social pages much lately!

Susie was a real heroin for sticking it out with Rodney for so long. Rodney is a true hero of the St Kilda Football Club.

[stinger]

Susie was a real heroin .

i thought that was our rod....

[Milton66]

Can we get this back on topic?

Matrix... POPCORN PLEASE!!

Rodger... you are the one I'm infatuated with in case you haven't noticed. I thought that if I was to start a thread by making a controversial statement... and it dragged out to 5+ pages, and the usuals hijacked the thread and turned it into a GT hate thread... you'd be impressed by my ability to emulate your success.

Alas, it appears to have ended in tears, Rodger. Rejection is hard to take.

You call me Wayne. you call me a liar, when I've done nothing to you. Why oh why do you treat me this way? Oh Rodgerfox Rodgerfox... wherefore art thou my Rodgerfox.

I Love you!

BTW, as far as 3rd party sniping comments are concerned, too bad you can't directly respond, isn't it?

So can all the sanctimonious posters here explain why this has now sidetracked into a slagging of RB?

How ironic... how hypocritical.

Meher Baba, you are simply incorrect if you are referring to me. We discussed this on the PMB.

If people disagree with my OP, then that's cool. But why does everyone take it as "having a go at GT".

GT puts his opinions out there, so surely we are entitled to discuss them?

[matrix]

[SENsei]

Can we get this back on topic?

Matrix... POPCORN PLEASE!!

Rodger... you are the one I'm infatuated with in case you haven't noticed. I thought that if I was to start a thread by making a controversial statement... and it dragged out to 5+ pages, and the usuals hijacked the thread and turned it into a GT hate thread... you'd be impressed by my ability to emulate your success.

Alas, it appears to have ended in tears, Rodger. Rejection is hard to take.

You call me Wayne. you call me a liar, when I've done nothing to you. Why oh why do you treat me this way? Oh Rodgerfox Rodgerfox... wherefore art thou my Rodgerfox.

I Love you!

BTW, as far as 3rd party sniping comments are concerned, too bad you can't directly respond, isn't it?

So can all the sanctimonious posters here explain why this has now sidetracked into a slagging of RB?

How ironic... how hypocritical.

Meher Baba, you are simply incorrect if you are referring to me. We discussed this on the PMB.

If people disagree with my OP, then that's cool. But why does everyone take it as "having a go at GT".

GT puts his opinions out there, so surely we are entitled to discuss them?

He's gone.

Move on.

[SENsei]

Susie was a real heroin .

i thought that was our rod....

Did I make a typo?

[saintsRrising]

"GT failed"
.

Er sorry I missed the Silverware in the Trophy Cabinet. Can you please point me tow here it is?

As far as I am aware one Mr Jeans is the only St Kilda coach that has not failed.

Some such as Alves went close, but still failed.

"GT destroyed our list"
.

Well I would not go that far..but yes GT sent our list backwards during his reaign as coach.

A coaches first tak is to add value to his list...and GT wasa gross undercahiever in this.

As a group his trades were poor and represented a net loss to the quality of the St Kilda list.

As as to player development...the fact that not one rookie became a regular player during GT's time speaks for itself.

"We would have won the flag in 2004 or 2005 except for GT"

.

Yes IMO that is correct if you say except for GT being appointed coach (his work prior to that was fine)...without GT we would have IMO.

IMO in those years given the list we had available and where opposition teams were at (ie Lions past their prime, as were PA) the 2004/2005 flags were amongst the easiest to win and we should have had at least one flag in this period.

Roos took an inferior Swans's list to a flag.

[meher baba]

"We would have won the flag in 2004 or 2005 except for GT"

.

Yes IMO that is correct if you say except for GT being appointed coach (his work prior to that was fine)...without GT we would have IMO.

IMO in those years given the list we had available and where opposition teams were at (ie Lions past their prime, as were PA) the 2004/2005 flags were amongst the easiest to win and we should have had at least one flag in this period.

Roos took an inferior Swans's list to a flag.

Despite writing very long posts with an authoratitive tone, you don't really know very much about footy, do you?

Port were an extremely good team in 2004. Looking back, I'm astonished that our relatively inexperienced list took them to the brink in the PF that year. The Lions were also an excellent team: they absolutely crushed us at home twice in a matter of weeks that year.

As we almost beat Port and the Lions seemed to have a bit of an off day in the GF, we might possibly have won a flag in 2004. But to say we "should" have is a huge call. I don't think you'd find too many neutral pundits would agree with you.

2005 was an incredibly tough year for us. It was when Hamill started to fall to bits. It was a year when Gehrig didn't deliver as much as he had the year before. It was a year in which Riewoldt was badly injured in the first game, missed plenty and came back at less than 100%, got injured again and then probably played through the last part of the season at considerably less than full fitness (both collision injuries BTW). Half way through the season we looked like missing the 8. We lifted wonderfully, thanks to terrific form from the likes of Kosi and Sam Fisher. And then, on the verge of the finals, both Kosi and Sam were injured and effectively cactus for the year and Hamill, who looked like he was getting it back together, got injured again.

We did very well to beat the Crows in the QF and then limped into the PF where we put up a brave show for the first 3/4 and then collapsed through lack of firepower (both in terms of the walking wounded on the field and the quality players sitting in the stands). Perhaps we could have won a GF in that year - you might like to share with us some of the brilliant coaching moves that you would have used to get us over the line in that game against the Swans - but the idea that we "should" is a load of nonsense. But I'll tell you what, if 2 out of Sam Fisher, Kosi and Hamill had been at full fitness at the first bounce of the PF, we certainly would have beaten the Swans.

No team is ever even close to a certainty to win a flag, in any season. Ask the Cats about 2008. Ask Essendon about most of the 1990s. Ask the Lions about how they almost stuffed it up in 2002.

About 75% of the posters on here (including, it would seem, the despised rodgerfox) seem to think we are dead set certainties to win this season. Those of us who have been around a bit longer and/or know a bit more about what can go wrong see it a bit differently. Most likely we will still have to knock over the Bulldogs and the Cats to win. Neither of these games are going to be anything like a stroll in the park for us.

And if, say, we do lose against the Dogs next week, will that mean Lyon will have "failed" as a coach and should be sacked?

Ironically, given that I seriously did think he should be sacked in mid-2008, I certainly won't be suggesting that he will have failed in any way, nor that he should be sacked.

However, I also suspect that I will be in a minority group on this forum.

[rodgerfox]

About 75% of the posters on here (including, it would seem, the despised rodgerfox) seem to think we are dead set certainties to win this season.

Maybe not dead certainties. But with the position we've put ourselves in, the players we having up and about and available, and with the rub of the greem going our way this year - we'd have to stuff up monumentally to lose it, or have some chronic bad luck.

[rodgerfox]

And if, say, we do lose against the Dogs next week, will that mean Lyon will have "failed" as a coach and should be sacked?

If we lose to the Dogs, due to being outplayed and not due to injury - then we're in deep shiit.

If a coach allows this team to get beaten fairly, then he's failed horribly. Absolutely horribly.

But, you cannot sack a coach after making a prelim. You cannot sack a coach after a good season.
We're stuck with Lyon, and pending the results this September that may or may not be a good thing.

[plugger66]

And if, say, we do lose against the Dogs next week, will that mean Lyon will have "failed" as a coach and should be sacked?

If we lose to the Dogs, due to being outplayed and not due to injury - then we're in deep shiit.

If a coach allows this team to get beaten fairly, then he's failed horribly. Absolutely horribly.

But, you cannot sack a coach after making a prelim. You cannot sack a coach after a good season.
We're stuck with Lyon, and pending the results this September that may or may not be a good thing.

You really are boring.

[rodgerfox]

And if, say, we do lose against the Dogs next week, will that mean Lyon will have "failed" as a coach and should be sacked?

If we lose to the Dogs, due to being outplayed and not due to injury - then we're in deep shiit.

If a coach allows this team to get beaten fairly, then he's failed horribly. Absolutely horribly.

But, you cannot sack a coach after making a prelim. You cannot sack a coach after a good season.
We're stuck with Lyon, and pending the results this September that may or may not be a good thing.

You really are boring.

You don't think that's a fair and reasonable comment?

[markp]

If a coach allows this team to get beaten fairly, then he's failed horribly. Absolutely horribly.

But, you cannot sack a coach after making a prelim. You cannot sack a coach after a good season.
We're stuck with Lyon, and pending the results this September that may or may not be a good thing.

Stop taking the p1ss and trolling dodgy stool.

If it was a one off it would be boring... the fact that it is so relentless makes it creepy.

[rodgerfox]

If a coach allows this team to get beaten fairly, then he's failed horribly. Absolutely horribly.

But, you cannot sack a coach after making a prelim. You cannot sack a coach after a good season.
We're stuck with Lyon, and pending the results this September that may or may not be a good thing.

Stop taking the p1ss and trolling dodgy stool.

If it was a one off it would be boring... the fact that it is so relentless makes it creepy.

May I suggest you stay out of it MarkP?

I was responding directly to a post that included my name in it.

In isolation I could maybe understand your requirement to jump in and have a sook again, but in context it was a completely reasonable post.

[markp]

If a coach allows this team to get beaten fairly, then he's failed horribly. Absolutely horribly.

But, you cannot sack a coach after making a prelim. You cannot sack a coach after a good season.
We're stuck with Lyon, and pending the results this September that may or may not be a good thing.

Stop taking the p1ss and trolling dodgy stool.

If it was a one off it would be boring... the fact that it is so relentless makes it creepy.

May I suggest you stay out of it MarkP?

I was responding directly to a post that included my name in it.

In isolation I could maybe understand your requirement to jump in and have a sook again, but in context it was a completely reasonable post.

You can suggest whatever you like...

I was responding to a post that contained a blatant troll.

If you post on an open forum dont cry when people respond as they see fit.

[Milton66]

And if, say, we do lose against the Dogs next week, will that mean Lyon will have "failed" as a coach and should be sacked?

If we lose to the Dogs, due to being outplayed and not due to injury - then we're in deep shiit.

If a coach allows this team to get beaten fairly, then he's failed horribly. Absolutely horribly.

But, you cannot sack a coach after making a prelim. You cannot sack a coach after a good season.
We're stuck with Lyon, and pending the results this September that may or may not be a good thing.

OK, I'll bite, although this has gone way off topic...

How can you make a comment like that with a straight face? I smell mischief.

So you honestly think that if we lose a final this year, then that's a bad thing that RL will coach next year?

How many cracks did Pagan have, or Williams for that matter??

Besides, I recall you saying that the coach's role is over rated.. or something similar. So if the coach has prepared and the players fail to deliver, then surely most of the blame lays with the players.

It's not as if he tells them to go out and lose.

Your post is very funny, if not moronic.

But I still love you.

[SENsei]

Gotta say, I had a near laugh out loud guffaw when I read that comment from Rodger Fox about 'you can't sack him' and we are 'stuck with him'.

I will support your right to have an opinion, Rodger, until the cows come home, but that is just an absurd thing to say and think.

This season we are 21-2. One of the most successful home and away seasons in the history of the AFL.

Now that means diddlysquat now, but the facts remain, undisputed.

Potentially, Lyon will go down as one of the two greatest Saints coaches in a few weeks time, and you will be down in the dumps because 'we are still stuck with him'!!

You have to admit, that's rather amusing.

If I was in the trenches, Rodger, I'm not sure I'd be looking in your direction to join me!!

Have a great day.

Phil?

[rodgerfox]

Gotta say, I had a near laugh out loud guffaw when I read that comment from Rodger Fox about 'you can't sack him' and we are 'stuck with him'.

What would be your thoughts on a coach that has a team that has beaten every team in the comp, has a full list to choose from - then gets beaten by a team that they wallopped twice during the year?

If in this situation, with the comp in the state it is now, we don't win this year's premiership due to natural causes (ie. outplayed) then quite simply - you'd have to think that the recipe doesn't work.

Why would it work next year if it doesn't work this year? How would be any better next year? Could we possibly expect another injury free season? Could we possibly expect that all opposition coaches wouldn't 'work us out' to an extent over the pre-season?

If we don't win it this year, from this situation, I can't see how we could logically ever expect to be in a better position that we are now.

Lyon's method's are at work, and he has the perfect base for it to work.

Finish on top - get a month to get your players healthy - win your first final - have 2 weeks off to get everyone cherry ripe - then have a full list to choose from for a home prelim.

If his method doesn't work now, it simply doesn't work.

So that's why I say 'we're stuck with him' if we get rolled this year - because it would be clear that his methods don't work.

Hell, Ken Judge could surely win the flag from here in our position!!


Having said that, I tihnk we will win. Barring tragedy, I simply can't see who would beat us.

[SENsei]

We lose and it will be so disappointing, it will be unfathomable. But I reckon the sun will still come up the next day and I will put one foot in front of the other.

It's a football game. Two games to win.

You are contradicting yourself.....

One hand - we will be stuck with the coach regardless....as if that is the most unpalatable thing going.

Other hand - "Hell, Ken Judge could surely win the flag from here in our position!!"


So if we lose it's all on the coach and if we win, then Joe the Blind Miner could've done it.

So Lyon would get no praise from you with the premiership cup but would get the sack if we fall at one of the last hurdles?

Is that your position?

[rodgerfox]

We lose and it will be so disappointing, it will be unfathomable. But I reckon the sun will still come up the next day and I will put one foot in front of the other.

It's a football game. Two games to win.

You are contradicting yourself.....

One hand - we will be stuck with the coach regardless....as if that is the most unpalatable thing going.

Other hand - "Hell, Ken Judge could surely win the flag from here in our position!!"


So if we lose it's all on the coach and if we win, then Joe the Blind Miner could've done it.

So Lyon would get no praise from you with the premiership cup but would get the sack if we fall at one of the last hurdles?

Is that your position?

No, no, I think my point has been missed.

Lyon has put us in this point and will get absolute credit when/if we win it.

He is coaching very very well. I mean seriously, we are so far ahead of the pack that it isn't funny.


The point is, that if we don't win it - the same recipe that has got us here, will surely be deemed to have failed given the dream run we have had.

If it doesn't work now under the current circumstances, I can't imagine it will work if things don't go our way.

Why would you be happy to have a coach whose methods don't work?