Why I left not wanting to come again....

[saint75]

Racism is one thing and player criticism is another.

Poor Raph gets both.

His game hasn't been up to the level that can negate criticism of a player quite yet.

His game against Adelaide was one of the best I've seen him play, and will go a long way to cancel that criticism out.

However racism is more deeply ingrained.

Racism is born out of ignorance and stupidity. Sad to see that some Saints supporters fall into this category.

To be honest though, I have never heard a racial slur against Raph in the areas I have been sitting in. It is more very 'heated' concern over his use of the ball and decision making at times. If I was to hear a racial slur against Raph, it would get ugly fairly quickly as I have no tolerance for either stupidity or ignorance.

[Sainter_Dad]

. . . as I have no tolerance for either stupidity or ignorance.

And yet you come to this forum!

[saint75]

. . . as I have no tolerance for either stupidity or ignorance.

And yet you come to this forum!

It is called 'selective' reading........

[plugger66]

Ive been going to the footy for 40 years now and for the last 5-10 years i have never heard a Saints fan racially abuse one our aboriginal players. i dont get raph cops more than most. blake has got as many bad threads and he has played 150 games and at the moment is a far better player than Raph. raph cops criticism because he looks laconic and makes seemingly basic errors. Apart from people abusing Raph for making mistakes as Milney gets every weeks has anyone ever heard him being racially abused because i certainly havent.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Personally, I think Raph cops far more than his mistakes warrant. Before throwing out the racism card though, I suggest people remember:

This is the club of Nicky Winmar, and anyone who followed the Saints through the 90s was a Winmar fan.

Personally, I think AFL football is still a racist workplace. I find indiginous round, with it's racial profiling (newsflash, Liam Jurrah is not a small forward!) and condescending admiration of "freakish" skills built up as a result of lack of schooling and jobs to be sickening... but, I reckon St Kilda is ahead of the curve. The Clarke's came through St Mary's, an example of fotty as a positive force, and especially in Raph's case, IMO they don't fit the profile.

Neither did Winmar, who was embraced.

For mine, any Saints supporter spraying any player based on race isn't really a Sainter... we do ride our whipping boys though, and this time round, the whipping boy is black.

Fair post BAM!

Winmar was loved by Saints fans but we didn't have the internet in the 8-s and 90's and I would suspect there would have been some overtly racial threads about Nicky's misdemeaners at the Saints. I can imagine the haters out there drawing a correlation between Nicky's walk out of the club in 93 and his aborigality.

I heard Winmar racially abused on many occasions - i heard other indegineous players racially abused in that time as well. in 95 I was next to a Saints fan that kept up a chant of "get back to Wogland" toward Carlton - because - obviously being a "wog" meant they were inferior to the white Saints fans

Racists are much more cunning nowdays because of the terrific racial discrimination laws we have in this country.

I firmly believe there is an agenda toward Raph not based on his football ability. However I must stress that this is a small minority who ring radio stations and post on Facebook.

The vast majority of critisism toward Raph by supporters is objective. I have critisised his football, so have many others with some justification.

The issue is the cowards who come on here and Facebook and subjectively abuse Raph to an intolerable level. They deserve to be called out and asked to explain their agenda.

If that makes them uncomfortable - bad luck. Racism makes the victim more than just uncomfortable and it is to be attacked at every opportunity.

You are correct BAM. STKFC as an organisation, the AFL as an organisation, and the VAST majority of fans, are ahead of the game on racism.

The AFL has done a great job, so has the STKFC. But the fight is never ended. Race and hatred will always rear its head, and when it does it needs to be called and attacked in kind.

All good points Joffa, and I really should be clear - while I hold up Winmar as the example of why I default to greater progress from the St Kilda fold, Winmar definately copped it himself, and the progress was in the love he came to engender - and probably more after the fact - rather than in winning acceptance.

In fact, while it may not be flattering to ourselves, I would imagine that the "skin" incident ended up being watershed for many Saints supporters because of the jumper he was wearing.

Similarly, while the amount of hate, and passion for it that's directed to Clarke may be suspicious, it is unfortunate progrees, but progress nonetheless, than it is notp/i] overt. Imagine the impact it has if he does put it together, and become a quality 200+ gamer running off the half back flank. By defying the stereotype, any who are won over who are unrealisingly living out a bias are won over... much as I believe Mickey O has done in Sydney.

If Jason Blake has won over fans (and I had sitting behind me a Clarke basher specifically looking for Blake - "Where's Blake" he said... Blake was holding the ball at the time...), then anything is possible, and I'm more and more coming to believe that all Raph needs is to sustain some form without getting hurt, and he'll mirror Gilbert for us. If he can do that, he'll win over fans, and then we just have to hope the unthinking bias that dissapears exceeds the number who credit freakish skills to his skin.

I don't believe most racists are cunning. I believe the majority are well meaning but ignorant, or subconscious. As society becomes more multicultural, a few visionaries lead the way, the majority follows slowly while trying to ensure the benefits outweigh the drawbacks, and a very few "cunning" individuals actively oppose out of either fear, or creating fear in others for their own benefit.

FWIW, between Jurrah, the rise of the Bombers list, and the retirement of Mickey O, the current level of dialogue about the culture that many of the so-called "freakish" players come from - and why some teams have been so much better at handling them than others - is incredibly positive. For most, learning about the drivers to the difference they see on the field will help remove well meant but divisive labels such as "freakish". Not all need pay attention either, only enough that the tipping point becomes understanding instead of surprise - in the same manner that (I too remember events like this) sings about wogs are no longer sung at carlton games... and most would never even think of doing so.

I agree with you that unfortunately, Raphael Clarke is an unwitting player in the course of racial tolerance... however I also think he's doing so at a place where his race is less important than the footy he plays, which for all the microscope, is also an opportunity.

Because he's following in the footsteps of Winmar.

[Solar]

just thought I would drop in and say something

when I posted it I was still very very upset. During games OUR players are who I ride the rollercoaster with. I will them on, want them to succeed. I love it when a player makes a mistake and jumps back in to get the ball back. I love seeing roo run and run and run and not get hi up for the lead. I love seeing zac hand it off then shepard. I love the guts it takes to leave your man and attack the ball like raph did.

the boys all make mistakes, I have never seen a match that was perfect. I have groaned along with the 35k other saints supporters when raph makes mistakes... but I do that for ALL the players. As guess what, I yell encouragement to the player to make up for the mistake. If they play bad, happy to discuss where they went wrong AFTER the match but why dig at our players while the battle is still on.....

Perhaps I did play the racist card when I shouldn't have. Perhaps it's because I was watching gilbert, chips et al all turning it over and only hearing raph getting caned (ok yes they thought CJ was a terrible footballer and hated handball).....

I guess I just want the kid to do his best. I have seen him play some rippers for casey, playing against CHF's twice his size. He has guts, a football brain and good skills. Just needs to get his confidence up and a run of games in the higher grade.

You know what was the worst thing, and perhap had me rethinking supporting this wonderful club. And that was the groupd of people, saints people, all happy to have their own rip into one of THEIR PLAYERS.... and to actually be hostile at the person defending the saints player.

I guess I was sick in the stomach, "strength through loyality"? When the boys go to battle on the footy field I hope we all get behind them.

So I guess in conclusion, perhaps this has been building up after 4 months of crap coming out of saints supporters mouths. I am going saturday, going to yell my lungs out and support the 22 players wearing the red white and black.

[fonz_#15]

my mum was near there, and says she heard it, and said it was very poor, i couldn't make it to the game.

hopefully they dont come back

[BigMart]

Only read the first page......that was enough for me...

I can get frustrated as anyone when we are disappointing, however I give credit where it is due and respect the fact that I support and the players have more ability, courage and desire yo succeed than I can only dream of.....

D***HEADS LIKE THAT NEED TO BE TOLD TO F*** OFF and watch the game at home if they are going to carry on like MORONS...

I for one would like to sit next to these supporters alongside you solar and return FIRE....

[SainterK]

I am not justifying the behaviour, but this isn't limited to our club. At the Carlton game, I heard supporters nearby groan and shout abuse when Nick Stevens fumbled. Just comfort yourself with how many people are there fully supporting the boys, it far outweighs the few nuffies...

[The Fireman]

F@ck me...now there's a straw being grasped.

I never realised our supporters were divided on political lines.

You've got your $900, go ruin another dinner party.

If you haven't already given yours back..can I have it?

You already got part of it Fireman for that sensational Moorabbin piece. You can have the rest when you come up with another gem.

lol, didn't look at it that way

[stinger]

I happen to think Raph cops a raw deal and is never anywhere near as bad as people make out but I've got plenty of friends and family who take the opposing view. According to Stinger that makes them racist.

that's not what i said at all smartarse.....the opinions that i express on here are based on actual experiences.....as for your friends and family ...you judge.....

[avid]

Solar, you just need to change seats.

But I do think people with obnoxious attitudes like that need to be publicly shamed. Think of something, while you're getting more and more tightly wound up, that might spotlight their loathsome mind-set, and get up and say it to them. (Politely, as Stinger suggests). Guaranteed 90% of the people around you will back you up and be grateful you said it.

Then move away if you still have to.

[StPeter]

I believe there is every chance it is racist. I wasn't at the game this week

but there is a supporter on the Moorabbin wing I can regularly hear who

only makes negative comments against Raph and also Gwilt and definitely

feel its a racist issue there.

[plugger66]

I believe there is every chance it is racist. I wasn't at the game this week

but there is a supporter on the Moorabbin wing I can regularly hear who

only makes negative comments against Raph and also Gwilt and definitely

feel its a racist issue there.

Maybe he just doesnt like those 2 players.

[evertonfc]

It's not a good thing BUT I've given up trying to rationalise with idiots.

This is why they are idiots.

The radio has re-emerged as an essential for the footy. Drowns out those who know nothing about the game.

Also, I'm certain that any criticism of Raph is not racist. Why has this never been an issue with X?It's all down to the way Raph plays and his execution, fumbling at key moments, sloppy handling under pressure, etc. NOT the colour of his skin.

Time to put that rumour to bed. We've cheered players of all colours and sizes at St Kilda. Sadly, some frustrate us with their style - Troy Schwarze for example. It's a pretty cheap shot to pull the racist card when it isn't there.

[Solar]

It's not a good thing BUT I've given up trying to rationalise with idiots.

This is why they are idiots.

The radio has re-emerged as an essential for the footy. Drowns out those who know nothing about the game.

Also, I'm certain that any criticism of Raph is not racist. Why has this never been an issue with X?It's all down to the way Raph plays and his execution, fumbling at key moments, sloppy handling under pressure, etc. NOT the colour of his skin.

Time to put that rumour to bed. We've cheered players of all colours and sizes at St Kilda. Sadly, some frustrate us with their style - Troy Schwarze for example. It's a pretty cheap shot to pull the racist card when it isn't there.

ev I puled it only after siting there watching all our other players make just as many mistakes and only raph get bagged. Yes I saw red and it was a mistake on my part but I couldn't help put 2 and 2 together....

anyway I will just ignore them and keep cheering on the 22 that take te field

[GrumpyOne]

credit where credit is due.......good post g o ....no.........i take that back......it was a great post.....

I've got the room ready Sting.

[joffaboy]

It's not a good thing BUT I've given up trying to rationalise with idiots.

This is why they are idiots.

The radio has re-emerged as an essential for the footy. Drowns out those who know nothing about the game.

Also, I'm certain that any criticism of Raph is not racist. Why has this never been an issue with X?It's all down to the way Raph plays and his execution, fumbling at key moments, sloppy handling under pressure, etc. NOT the colour of his skin.

Time to put that rumour to bed. We've cheered players of all colours and sizes at St Kilda. Sadly, some frustrate us with their style - Troy Schwarze for example. It's a pretty cheap shot to pull the racist card when it isn't there.

While I agree with the thrust of your post and agree that the VAST majority would not be racist, I cant help think that the ongoing hatefest by some supposed fans has more to do with who Raph is and not what Raph does.

X has copped really unfair critisism, and while we all loved Nicky, the internet wasn't about when he was strutting his stuff and he would have copped no end of latent critisism when he walked out of the Saints in 93.

I dont know how you can be certain. I beleive that there is a vast amount of latent racism in the community. Why the irrational hatred of Raph by some?

I have stated countless times that no player is above critisism, and i have certainly critisised Raph. A good example is Fireman - stated that he though Raph was useless, but then come on here and praised him for his efforts.

No, the majority of people are fair and reasonable. The hatefilled posters who spew bile and insults toward Raph and the phone callers who cant ever specifically say what Raph has done to make them hate him, are the ones I am talking about.

You dont reckon it is race, well i think you are wrong.

[joffaboy]

ev I puled it only after siting there watching all our other players make just as many mistakes and only raph get bagged. Yes I saw red and it was a mistake on my part but I couldn't help put 2 and 2 together....

anyway I will just ignore them and keep cheering on the 22 that take te field

You were probably right solar. The hatefilled diatribe toward you sounds as if you hit a nerve with the bastards.

[evertonfc]

X has copped really unfair critisism, and while we all loved Nicky, the internet wasn't about when he was strutting his stuff and he would have copped no end of latent critisism when he walked out of the Saints in 93.

I'm one of X's biggest fans on this forum (I can't say biggest, because I think I've already been pegged on that with Schneider ) but all the criticism he's received has only ever related to one thing. Injuries.

He's quick, smart, skillful, small and clever - the complete opposite to Raph in many respects. But he is as injury-prone as anyone and whilst I hate seeing him criticised, I accept that 99% of that comes from his fragility.

And in a way, that's probably quite fair. He is hopelessly injury-prone, much to my chagrin.

You dont reckon it is race, well i think you are wrong.

I find that really hard to believe - because I get as infuriated as anyone with Raph...and it's got nothing to do with race. It's for the reasons highlighted above.

If anything, I have wanted him to succeed so badly a) because I think he has some skills that could make him a could be a terrific player and b) I think he can be such a positive role model for Indigenous youth. I love Indigenous players - they possess the most incredible sporting ability. As I say, I've been a huge fan of X since day one...I'd love young Ross to kick on and play seniors too.

With Raph, it's just so hard to have patience when he gets so many chances ahead of others. I just don't have enough hair left to be pulling out anymore...(having said that, my hair is starting to grow back in the places where I used to pull it out with Jason Blake - who's realised his limitations).

I guess in time, Raph will get there...but I still feel he's a few years away from being a reliable, dependable player. I just want to make sure we have the best, most fool-proof 22 out there in September this year. Is he part of that? Probably not. I'd rather Max Hudghton.

All I want is a premiership, I don't care who plays in it. If all the blokes I've doubted (at some point!) over the years - Sam Fisher, Clint Jones, Jason Blake and Raph Clarke for starters - come out and fire us over the line, I'll be the first one to buy them a beer.

Sorry for taking the issue away from the OP.

[stinger]

Also, I'm certain that any criticism of Raph is not racist. Why has this never been an issue with X?It's all down to the way Raph plays and his execution, fumbling at key moments, sloppy handling under pressure, etc. NOT the colour of his skin.

It's a pretty cheap shot to pull the racist card when it isn't there.

flower me everton.......do you go to the footy with your ears plugged..???.oh...you do.....a radio you say........read what i have posted.....i have personally heard racist remarks made to a number of players....including our own......

and for your information....i also believe it is an issue with x....and gwilt....and before that, murray....



also......all have also been repeatedly put down on this forum on a regular basis......is this forum racist?????/.....the jury's still out for mine.......everyone can have their own opinion.....you are not going to change mine.......

[stinger]

I'm one of X's biggest fans on this forum (I can't say biggest, because I think I've already been pegged on that with Schneider ) but all the criticism he's received has only ever related to one thing. Injuries.

He's quick, smart, skillful, small and clever - the complete opposite to Raph in many respects. But he is as injury-prone as anyone and whilst I hate seeing him criticised, I accept that 99% of that comes from his fragility.

And in a way, that's probably quite fair. He is hopelessly injury-prone, much to my chagrin.
.

....how dare the bastard allow himself to get injured all the time......take him out and tar and feather him ffs.....



quite fair. you say?????....you gotta be joking.....

[Dark Days]

Solar = Kleenex Tissues
If you can't put up with it go and watch paint dry.

Stinger if only you knew ???

[stinger]

Solar = Kleenex Tissues
If you can't put up with it go and watch paint dry.

Stinger if only you knew ???

if only i knew what ffs...????...don't talk in riddles..... it's a waste of band width ...or something..... ......out with it man or stfu......

[cowboy18]

"Why I left not wanting to come again...."

My one Melbourne H&A game for the year and the nice lady on the Moorabbin Wing tells me I look like the cravat guy from Masterchef. Doesn't help that she said that she followed up saying liked him! Took me a quarter to dissuade my colleagues (and my eldest) that she was wrong.

Much safer to watch from the safety of the northern states.


BUT on topic... I vividly remember games in the late 80s where we regularly turned to each other and wondered who had accidentally packed the d**khead magnet. All part of the rich tapestry that is a trip to the football. Don't think you can avoid some of the rich pageant if you choose to go.