This will sound like heresy

[joffaboy]

You feel vindicated do you?

I didn't bump it

Sad, really.

Yes your responses were sad

Nobody can prove that we wouldn't be in this situation had Harvey not retired.

Who is trying to? However that is supposition. Facts are that the STKFC has had an historic 14-0 start to the season. Would they have done that with Harvey? Well nobody can prove that they would have.

However it is irrefutable FACT that they have done it without Harvey.

The penny may have dropped for the side regardless.

Supposition once more. FACT is the penny HAS dropped 14-0 says so.

1 + 1 = 3 as far as I'm concerned.

Good for you. Fact is that the team is 14-0, best we ever did with Harvey is 10-0.

I actually put 14 games played +14 wins = 14-0.

Your posts earlier in this thread were very amusing.

How embarrassing for you

[spert]

Eventually Harvs had to retire, and he did at the time where RL was building the structure for a flag winning team. Harvs was a great player for our club, although it would have been nice for him to have a GF medal, time moves on, and he will always be remembered by the Saints supporters and the football public as one of our, and the AFL's, all-time greats. I expect him to be in the rooms when we bring home the bacon this year.

[Beej]

You feel vindicated do you?

I didn't bump it

Sad, really.

Yes your responses were sad

Nobody can prove that we wouldn't be in this situation had Harvey not retired.

Who is trying to? However that is supposition. Facts are that the STKFC has had an historic 14-0 start to the season. Would they have done that with Harvey? Well nobody can prove that they would have.

However it is irrefutable FACT that they have done it without Harvey.

The penny may have dropped for the side regardless.

Supposition once more. FACT is the penny HAS dropped 14-0 says so.

1 + 1 = 3 as far as I'm concerned.

Good for you. Fact is that the team is 14-0, best we ever did with Harvey is 10-0.

I actually put 14 games played +14 wins = 14-0.

Your posts earlier in this thread were very amusing.

How embarrassing for you

Embarrassed on a fan forum on the interbob. Oh, no!

As you said yourself, "this may sound like heresy".

Because it is.

Unbelievable that anyone can draw a relation from St Kilda's good form to losing its greatest ever player.

To think that the players decided to suddenly lift after the retirement yet did not feel the need to lift when Harvey was playing for us. Which is effectively what you're saying.

You're an embarrassing human being.

I hope Banger doesn't come across this thread by accident.

By the way, Harvey's white so leave the race card at home this time.

[joffaboy]

Embarrassed on a fan forum on the interbob. Oh, no!

As you said yourself, "this may sound like heresy".

Because it is.

Unbelievable that anyone can draw a relation from St Kilda's good form to losing its greatest ever player.

To think that the players decided to suddenly lift after the retirement yet did not feel the need to lift when Harvey was playing for us. Which is effectively what you're saying.

You're an embarrassing human being.

I hope Banger does not have to read this.

the only thing embarrassing is the fact that you are incapable of understanding the OP in two threads, this one, and the one where you attacked Raph Clarke in P66's thread.

And just for those who missed your embarrassing idiocies earlier in the thread

We're 2-0. Yes, that's right, 2 and zip. But it's not just the fact that this is undoubtably the greatest 2-0 start in VFL/AFL history, not just the fact we're playing footy from another planet, it's the manner in which our players have suddenly lived up to their potential in the space of only two weeks. So much so that we need to look for reasons for this AMAZING turnaround in fortunes. And the answer is obvious - we're structurally and psychologically better off now without the burden that was Robert Harvey.

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

How embarrassing.

What do you say now we are 14-0.

You silly silly cabbage

But keep it up OLB, we are all laughing our head off at the way you haven't the capacity to understand a question rather than a statement.

OLB = FAIL.

[Richter]

Unbelievable that anyone can draw a relation from St Kilda's good form to losing its greatest ever player.

To think that the players decided to suddenly lift after the retirement yet did not feel the need to lift when Harvey was playing for us. Which is effectively what you're saying.

It's all in the power of the unconscious mind OLB. Perhaps last year the players were unconsciously relying on the great man to pull themselves along. Now, with no Haves they've all taken up the reins and are taking responsibility for themselves?

Or perhaps it is simply that the mainstay of the midfield are improving year on year and are now entering their prime age to perform as AFL footballers?

-----------

I think a small bit of the former and a large bit of the latter.

Interestingly, I think that the one area that we are definitely behind Geelong and the Western Bulldogs is the midfield. We have the best defence (both in terms of back 6 and team defence), one of best attacks, but NOT the best midfield.

Perhaps then it would be reasonable to wonder what if we still had Harv.s or had picked up Cousins..... or Judd instead of Ball? However, it is fruitless as none of these are potential solutions...... instead better to look at those possible solutions, such as....

- continued improvements from present midfielders

- addtitions to the midfoeld rotations... could Raph play more in the mid.... Armo come in....... Eddy come in....

- pick up more mids in the draft or trade for them - we could have picked up Rodan 2 years ago or Lovett last year - both would have fitted what we need perfectly...... perhaps another such player may become available in this year's tradeweek.

P.s. I have changed my sig!!!!

[SENsei]

Geez, I didn't revisit this thread to have you both go back hammer and tongs at each other.

Leave the agro out of it and debate the issue on the merits.

[Beej]

Wow, how unfortunate for me.

Is St.Kilda better off from a structure and psychological perspective now Robert Harvey has retired?

Once again, I pray Banger realises this isn't the view of all the supporters.

I'm sure his teammates did everything in their power to get him over the line in the end but it just was not to be.

The club is not structurally nor pschologically better now that Robert Harvey is not around.

The club is not better off in any way due to his retirement.

I think there are numerous reasons, probably too many to mention, that we should attribute the excellent season so far to before the retirement of Robert Harvey.

Banger, if you are reading. You're dealing with an A-grade struggling grunt here who, when in a debate, to get some kind of edge, is so low to label someone a racist without any foundations at all.

The lowest form of human being. That is what we're dealing with.

[OneEyedSainter77]

At the rsik of getting my head bitten off by everybody on this forum (f*** it, noone here knows who I am anyway) I completely agree with joffaboy's OP.

If only because Harvey showed signs of gradual decline in his last two seasons. Sure he turned it on and you couldn't question his work ethic or his love for the team and there will NEVER be another plaeyr like Robert harvey, but maybe it is time to move on.

EDIT - When I say decline not meaning that he was getting gradually worse but that he couldn't maintain his brilliant form throughout the entire season and that's fair enough, he played for 21 bloody seasons!

I don't think this is disrepectful to Harvey at all though - more of a credit to what he provided us with. Now that he's gone, we've lost a huge part of our team, even if it is just one man. So what we've had to do is literally come up with a whole new structure for the team. In order to do that, some of our second tier mids have needed to lift, something i don;t think they would be compelled to do if Harvey was still there.

If anyone thinks harvey would be offended by that, that';s bulllshit. If anything, he would be humbl;ed by that. that his departure could have such a massive and positive effect on our core midfielders - and Harves is a pretty humble guy - we all know that. I think even if St Kilda wins the flag this year, even though he isn't there anymore and he has only been missing one year, Harvey will be one of the happiest for this club.

Hi everybody, I'm One Eyed Sainter77, I'm relatively new to this forum but I hope you won't think my posts are offensive, these are just my opinion. And no Stinger, i am not a Carscum troll.

[starsign]

In short and not having waded through all of these 7 pages ,although I did comment on the post in its infancy ...
I think the big plus is we are seeing the legacy that Harves has left us in many of the blokes that have developed out of their shells this season

for one they have been blessed with having had the opportunity to TRAIN as well as maybe PLAY alongside the champ and see 1st hand whats needed to get to the top in this game ...
c/f the bluebagging midfielders and others who can only go on his WORDS

we are miles in front on this score, and as sure as hell there's a lot of the Banger still running around out there spiritually and knowledgewise in R, W & B at present!
You'd only have to ask the current players!!!

So for mine its not so much a case of are we better off without him now , but by the living whatshisname we are certainly the better off of having had him BEING HERE!!!!

[Milton66]

Question: Would Harvey make best 22 this year?

My answer is no due to the style required by Lyon.

It is a physically demanding style, and I reckon that just like Gherig and Voss, Harvey would struggle.

The OP has merit. Sometimes it's easy to rely on too few to do the hard yards.

Harvey's departure has improved us in the sense that other players were given a challenge by the coach, and they have so far responded.

[Stephen Theodore]

milton66 wrote:
Harvey's departure has improved us in the sense that other players were given a challenge by the coach, and they have so far responded.

Sad, but true, Milton.

[saintspremiers]

Question: Would Harvey make best 22 this year?

My answer is no due to the style required by Lyon.

It is a physically demanding style, and I reckon that just like Gherig and Voss, Harvey would struggle.

The OP has merit. Sometimes it's easy to rely on too few to do the hard yards.

Harvey's departure has improved us in the sense that other players were given a challenge by the coach, and they have so far responded.

exactly....and that's why Harv's was retired and Cousins wasn't recruited.

Two hard/tough nut decisions by Rossy, well done!

[|Andy|]

You feel vindicated do you?

I didn't bump it

Sad, really.

Yes your responses were sad

Nobody can prove that we wouldn't be in this situation had Harvey not retired.

Who is trying to? However that is supposition. Facts are that the STKFC has had an historic 14-0 start to the season. Would they have done that with Harvey? Well nobody can prove that they would have.

However it is irrefutable FACT that they have done it without Harvey.

The penny may have dropped for the side regardless.

Supposition once more. FACT is the penny HAS dropped 14-0 says so.

1 + 1 = 3 as far as I'm concerned.

Good for you. Fact is that the team is 14-0, best we ever did with Harvey is 10-0.

I actually put 14 games played +14 wins = 14-0.

Your posts earlier in this thread were very amusing.

How embarrassing for you

Embarrassed on a fan forum on the interbob. Oh, no!

As you said yourself, "this may sound like heresy".

Because it is.

Unbelievable that anyone can draw a relation from St Kilda's good form to losing its greatest ever player.

To think that the players decided to suddenly lift after the retirement yet did not feel the need to lift when Harvey was playing for us. Which is effectively what you're saying.

You're an embarrassing human being.

I hope Banger doesn't come across this thread by accident.

By the way, Harvey's white so leave the race card at home this time.

For what it's worth, I just hope Banger doesn't get offended that you don't believe he left a large enough hole for the other players to fill in, such was his influence of the game.
Because that is precisely what the OP was referring to, and how the players realised that they had to fill the hole by lifting, and it is by lifting that is how we've bridged the gap between us and Geelong.

There is always a possibility and especially this case where we can draw a relation to St Kilda's good form to Banger leaving, because these are the facts. Noone denies that Banger was a great legendary player, but the facts are alongside other factors, that he left and we are 14-0.

This isn't like saying it is raining, therefore tomorrow the umpires will be more consistent in umpiring. It is more like saying, it is raining, therefore the Saints will play a better game at Subi then West Coast.

There are many factors, each which correlate to each other. Banger was part of the playing group, and the playing group played for St Kilda. Therefore Banger being absent correlates with how the playing group plays.

I don't know if you understand it any better. In other words, I can see where the OP was talking about, and it is quite logical what he said.

[perfectionist]

No, not heresy, just crap. Any team, at any time, in any era can do with utter class. And that's what Robert Harvey was! On the other hand, I am not a favourite of dredging up old threads to rub it in. We all make calls from time to time which, with the wisdom of hindsight, we would have been better off not making (unless we are an eternal fence sitter).

[Beej]

This is what the OP is saying:

If it wasn't for Harvey retiring, we wouldn't be 14-0.

Here's a question:

If Harvey had retired earlier, would we have then experienced this success earlier, seeing as the retirement was the 'apparent' catalyst for the team's realisation that they needed to drastically improve because no longer was Harvey around to pick up the slack?

In effect, we couldn't possibly have won a flag with Harvey in the team then because if it wasn't for his retirement, the side wouldn't have received the wake-up call it needed.

That's how I'm taking it.

When you think about it, it is really quite amazing how North Melbourne were able to win flags considering their over-reliance on Wayne Carey.

[aussierules0k]

[Quixote]

And I want to make it absolutely clear that this is in no way a critisism of the greatest od all Saints players.

My question is....

Is St.Kilda better off from a structure and psychological perspective now Robert Harvey has retired?

Yes.

x 2. Clearly.


But it should be noted - the group development under Lyon has finally happened. If Harvey was still playing, he'd be a part of this process.



But the leadership, the agro and the self-sufficiency of our core players has gone through the roof this year.



Say what you will. There are factors.

[OneEyedSainter77]

This is what the OP is saying:

If it wasn't for Harvey retiring, we wouldn't be 14-0.

Here's a question:

If Harvey had retired earlier, would we have then experienced this success earlier, seeing as the retirement was the 'apparent' catalyst for the team's realisation that they needed to drastically improve because no longer was Harvey around to pick up the slack?

In effect, we couldn't possibly have won a flag with Harvey in the team then because if it wasn't for his retirement, the side wouldn't have received the wake-up call it needed.

That's how I'm taking it.

When you think about it, it is really quite amazing how North Melbourne were able to win flags considering their over-reliance on Wayne Carey.

That is not what he is saying at all and do you ant to know why? Because the OP was amde when we were 2-0. With the difficult games ahead of us, how was he to know we wuold be 14-0.

Secondly, contrary to what opposition supporters may think, i believe Harvey retired at the perfect time. I would have LOVED to see him notch up 400 games but it was never going to happen. His body just coulnd't possibly have lasted another season so the timing for his retirement was perfect.

Thirdly, Harvey retired was the catalyst for a lot of players standing up. because of the gaping hole he left in our midfield. However, if he had've retired at 2007, I am not sure some of our younger mdis would have had the same impact - the team would not have been as mature as it is now either. And of course, with a brand new gameplan, how would they have been able to adapt to that straight away.

All these reasons are why i think the timing of Robert Harvey retiring was perfect and if that makes me disrespectful in your eyes, so be it.

[Moose]

IMO, the start of the season is Rob Harvey's legacy. He showed what hard work and sacrifice was necessary to acheive. The players have learnt this. Sad fact, he isn't around to enjoy it.

[joffaboy]

Is St.Kilda better off from a structure and psychological perspective now Robert Harvey has retired?

Once again, I pray Banger realises this isn't the view of all the supporters.

Wow – now a question is a view??

Lol too funny

You're dealing with an A-grade struggling grunt here who, when in a debate, to get some kind of edge, is so low to label someone a racist without any foundations at all.

Please quote the post where I labelled anybody racist.

You really are either very stupid or an out and out LIAR.

Quote the post of STFU.

This is what the OP is saying:

If it wasn't for Harvey retiring, we wouldn't be 14-0.

Yup that right. I actually said that. And even more remarkable was that I made the OP when we were 2-0.

Are you really this delusional or am I dealing with someone who just has poor comprehension skills.

You really are digging a hole for yourself deeper and deeper.

Really mate, give up, it is embarrassing for you

[Moose]

FFS Joffaboy, stop hijacking your own thread !!!!!!!!!

[joffaboy]

FFS Joffaboy, stop hijacking your own thread !!!!!!!!!

The guy has accused me of labelling posters racist, and of completely misrepresenting the OP.

The guy is either stupid or a liar.

Considering then incredibly insulting things this bloke wrote about Raph Clarke in another thread, his holier than thou attitude to a retired player working for an opposition team is incredibly hypocritical.

And I didn't bump it, or jack it. You might want to read how there were a multutude of trolls throughout the thread, and I was the one who brought it back OT.

I wont allow some clown like OLB to spread lies about what I have posted.

[Beej]

The other thing that doesn't sit well with me is the insinuation that his teammates must have had more to give but they did not give it because they thought Banger would get them over the line. Which I find ridiculous.

Please quote the post where I labelled anybody racist.

This OLB dill thinks because he has a bigotted hatefilled view, that it is correct.

Dont make things up unless you want your hatefilled agenda to be exposed.

This must be such a habit for you that you forget you're even doing it.

However, I really need to give you credit. That has to be 4 or 5 posts in a row directed at me where you have refrained from throwing out an accusation of being a racist.

There may be a half-decent human being there after all. I think you're beginning to realise that when someone doesn't agree with your point of view you really don't have to resort to these accusations to strenghthen your opinion.

Excellent mate, keep it up. *ruffling joffaboy's hair*

Really mate, give up, it is embarrassing for you

My opinion may be wrong, I can live with that. It won't stop me from voicing it.

Whereas you throw racist accusations at someone because they have a differing view from yours. Now, can you live with that?

How embarrassing that must be for you.

[matrix]

i have a funny feeling of deja vu

[joffaboy]

Please quote the post where I labelled anybody racist.

This OLB dill thinks because he has a bigotted hatefilled view, that it is correct.

Dont make things up unless you want your hatefilled agenda to be exposed.

This must be such a habit for you that you forget you're even doing it.

[/quote]

So this PROVES you are a LIAR and a fool.

I do think you are hatefilled and a bigot. Where did I use the term racist?

If you cant comprehend the difference between a bigot and a racist, go get an education.

For your education you LIAR here is a definition of a bigot and the context I use it for you

"a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own"

You really are a LIAR and an idiot.

Once again LIAR. Post where I called you a racist.

Idiot LIAR.

PS. Reported to the mods for posting lies and attempting to start flame wars.

You will be warned by a mod in due course. Troll.