Dempster

This unofficial St Kilda Saints fan forum is for people of all ages to chat Saints Footy and all posts must be respectful.

Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators

User avatar
ace
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 10800
Joined: Sun 16 Dec 2007 3:28pm
Location: St Kilda
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 838 times

Re: Dempster

Post: # 765365Post ace »

BigMart wrote:4 games now.....

held Bowden to 14 possesions and had an impact aswell - Bowden generally gets 35+ in the ressies and is still one of Richmonds best players.

Interesting....

Maguire - 99g, 25yo
Armitage - 16g, 21yo
Dempster - 75g, 24yo
Gwilt - 43g, 23yo
Eddy - 15g, 21yo
Raph - 45, 23yo
L.Fisher - 55, 25yo
Begley - 29, 23yo

That is a fair bit of experience running around in the two's......

Steven King 224g, 30yo suspended....2 weeks away

Tom Lynch 18yo, Rhys Stanley 18yo and Jack Steven 19yo yet to debut and all very impressive
Bowden was just going through the motions.
He knows he is no longer required by Richmond.
Richmond want to put games into kids.
Bowden has played his last AFL game and is now merely fulfilling his contractual obligations by training and playing when and where instructed.


The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
When I was a young child, I knew that I knew so much about so much.
Now that I am old and know so much more, I know that I know so much about so little, and so little about so much.

If you are not engaging AI actively and aggressively, you are doing it wrong.
You are not going to lose your job to AI.
You are going lose your job to somebody who uses AI.
Your company is not going to go out of business because of AI.
Your company is going to go out of business because another company used AI.
- Jensen Huang, CEO of NVIDIA
BigMart
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 13622
Joined: Sat 22 Mar 2008 6:06pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post: # 765369Post BigMart »

Good that you know the inner emotions and motivation of a player who you have never met and can say with certainty what J.Bowden is thinking...

doesn't really answer why he got 41 touches the week before in the VFL though....

maybe that day the dual AA, and dual B&F winner may have let some pride get in the way.....and performed the way a 200 game AFL player should at that level........

and this week he ran into a fit and disciplined stopper who is a good match up for him........just maybe


saintspremiers
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 25303
Joined: Tue 01 Feb 2005 4:25pm
Location: Trump Tower
Has thanked: 142 times
Been thanked: 284 times

Re: Dempster

Post: # 765371Post saintspremiers »

BigMart wrote:4 games now.....

held Bowden to 14 possesions and had an impact aswell - Bowden generally gets 35+ in the ressies and is still one of Richmonds best players.

Interesting....

Maguire - 99g, 25yo
Armitage - 16g, 21yo
Dempster - 75g, 24yo
Gwilt - 43g, 23yo
Eddy - 15g, 21yo
Raph - 45, 23yo
L.Fisher - 55, 25yo
Begley - 29, 23yo

That is a fair bit of experience running around in the two's......

Steven King 224g, 30yo suspended....2 weeks away

Tom Lynch 18yo, Rhys Stanley 18yo and Jack Steven 19yo yet to debut and all very impressive
hmm....some impressive trade bait amongst some of those listed perhaps....


BigMart
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 13622
Joined: Sat 22 Mar 2008 6:06pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post: # 765372Post BigMart »

He was clearly a walk up start in 2008 and was rarely beaten.....that is his appeal MB.......Sean that is...


BTW - how many winning games was Gwilt involved in......he was dropped.....as was Clarke, Eddy, McEvoy, Gram......if better players are ready......players are dropped...

Playing in a winning team does not mean you are exempt from omission if you are not performing.....maybe the other 20 odd players (Hayes, Riewoldt, Joey, Dal, cough, cough have a bit to do with it aswell)


User avatar
ace
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 10800
Joined: Sun 16 Dec 2007 3:28pm
Location: St Kilda
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 838 times

Re: Dempster

Post: # 765394Post ace »

saintspremiers wrote:
BigMart wrote:4 games now.....

held Bowden to 14 possesions and had an impact aswell - Bowden generally gets 35+ in the ressies and is still one of Richmonds best players.

Interesting....

Maguire - 99g, 25yo
Armitage - 16g, 21yo
Dempster - 75g, 24yo
Gwilt - 43g, 23yo
Eddy - 15g, 21yo
Raph - 45, 23yo
L.Fisher - 55, 25yo
Begley - 29, 23yo

That is a fair bit of experience running around in the two's......

Steven King 224g, 30yo suspended....2 weeks away

Tom Lynch 18yo, Rhys Stanley 18yo and Jack Steven 19yo yet to debut and all very impressive
hmm....some impressive trade bait amongst some of those listed perhaps....
Have you forgotten that match against Hawthorn when only one available St Kilda senior listed player did not get a game.
16 players injured, 1 suspended.
This is a list of required players.


The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
When I was a young child, I knew that I knew so much about so much.
Now that I am old and know so much more, I know that I know so much about so little, and so little about so much.

If you are not engaging AI actively and aggressively, you are doing it wrong.
You are not going to lose your job to AI.
You are going lose your job to somebody who uses AI.
Your company is not going to go out of business because of AI.
Your company is going to go out of business because another company used AI.
- Jensen Huang, CEO of NVIDIA
User avatar
Bernard Shakey
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 11242
Joined: Sun 18 Mar 2007 11:22pm
Location: Down By The River 1989, 2003, 2009 & 2013
Has thanked: 126 times
Been thanked: 137 times

Re: Dempster

Post: # 765399Post Bernard Shakey »

saintspremiers wrote:
BigMart wrote:4 games now.....

held Bowden to 14 possesions and had an impact aswell - Bowden generally gets 35+ in the ressies and is still one of Richmonds best players.

Interesting....

Maguire - 99g, 25yo
Armitage - 16g, 21yo
Dempster - 75g, 24yo
Gwilt - 43g, 23yo
Eddy - 15g, 21yo
Raph - 45, 23yo
L.Fisher - 55, 25yo
Begley - 29, 23yo

That is a fair bit of experience running around in the two's......

Steven King 224g, 30yo suspended....2 weeks away

Tom Lynch 18yo, Rhys Stanley 18yo and Jack Steven 19yo yet to debut and all very impressive
hmm....some impressive trade bait amongst some of those listed perhaps....
Who or what would you be looking for, to trade any of these required players?


Old enough to repaint, but young enough to sell
User avatar
ace
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 10800
Joined: Sun 16 Dec 2007 3:28pm
Location: St Kilda
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 838 times

Post: # 765498Post ace »

Don't show them anything they haven't already seen on the tapes.
Win this game by all means but remember the Saints only need to beat Geelong once providing that is in the finals.


The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
When I was a young child, I knew that I knew so much about so much.
Now that I am old and know so much more, I know that I know so much about so little, and so little about so much.

If you are not engaging AI actively and aggressively, you are doing it wrong.
You are not going to lose your job to AI.
You are going lose your job to somebody who uses AI.
Your company is not going to go out of business because of AI.
Your company is going to go out of business because another company used AI.
- Jensen Huang, CEO of NVIDIA
User avatar
bozza1980
Club Player
Posts: 1688
Joined: Thu 27 Jan 2005 3:42pm
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 6 times

Post: # 765558Post bozza1980 »

There is no point comparing Dempster and Maguire they play different roles in the team and as such I wouldn't see them competing for the same spot.

I think that if Max was unable to play this Sunday, Dempster would come in as a better fit for Steve Johnson (as I think this is who Max will be lining up on at the first bounce) than Maguire would be.

If Dawson was in doubt I would see Maguire as the stand by as he would be a better fit on Mooney than Dempster.

All this "I can't believe people think Dempster is good" talk suprises me. He plays off the half back flank/back pocket, with this in mind he is hardly ever beaten by his opponent and provides the necessary decision making and rebound we need from him.

I'm glad I'm not in our match committee, I'd have him in our best 22, that said I think I have about 28 players in our best 22.


User avatar
matrix
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 21475
Joined: Mon 21 May 2007 1:55pm
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post: # 765573Post matrix »

actually i havent heard any media even mention dempster as a possibility.
mind u i havent read every single paper in the country or heard any radio.

whats it been like over there?
the name getting thrown around as a possible inclusion??


User avatar
meher baba
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7223
Joined: Mon 14 Aug 2006 6:49am
Location: Tasmania
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 516 times

Post: # 765591Post meher baba »

Dempster is a very good defender with a long booming kick...and can run forward and snag a goal. He has quite good pace and can play on smalls and if require can play asa run with tagger.

He is better decision maker than Blake and a much better kick and runner. Blake is better at a KP...but Demspter is much better option on the flank.
All this "I can't believe people think Dempster is good" talk suprises me. He plays off the half back flank/back pocket, with this in mind he is hardly ever beaten by his opponent and provides the necessary decision making and rebound we need from him.
He was clearly a walk up start in 2008 and was rarely beaten.....that is his appeal MB.......Sean that is...
A few quotes from earlier in this thread.

I completely get the tagger/run with/rarely if ever beaten perspective on Dempster. As I have previously said, he is a terrific negater of opposing threats whose speciality is to make them as invisible as himself.

What I don't understand is the concept of Dempster as a wingman/rebound player/goal snagger. Yes, he kicked a winning goal for us in one game: so did Zac, but I don't think I would describe him as a rebound player.

In terms of rebounding play from down back, I would put Sams Fisher and Gilbert, Raph, BJ, Begley, Miles, even Blake and Zac ahead of Dempster.

I know I mainly see the footy on TV from interstate, but - as the camera does usually follow the ball - you do tend to pick up a player's rebounding qualities on the telly. And I haven't picked up much in regard to Dempster, other than the long, accurate kick (which he pulls out too infrequently for mine) and a shot on goal about once every 2-3 games (and his career stats are 11 goals and 9 behinds from 73 games, so he doesn't seem to be all that accurate).

I haven't really picked up the sense that he is especially quick either: my impression is that he is quicker than Bakes, but a fair bit slower than Blake.

I'm not saying that he couldn't play as a rebounding defender: he seems to have many of the required skills. I'm just saying that I haven't seen him do much of it so far in his career.


"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."
- Jonathan Swift
spert
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 9155
Joined: Wed 29 Jun 2005 10:39pm
Location: A distant beach
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 438 times

Post: # 765603Post spert »

Goose would be fine running in a straight line all day, but has lost a bit of speed and is not agile enough for our 2009 backline, so he is really only a forward possibility these days at senior level -don't let the paddock footy of VFL fool you. Dempster has only come off a knee reco and it is way too early for him to come back. Strangely enough, the only player who could come into our back line is Raph, who due to his agility could be more suited to playing against the Cats than a Dempster or Goose. Blake is worrying me a bit otherwise.


User avatar
saintsRrising
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 30098
Joined: Mon 15 Mar 2004 11:07am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 711 times
Been thanked: 1235 times

Post: # 765612Post saintsRrising »

meher baba wrote:

In terms of rebounding play from down back, I would put Sams Fisher and Gilbert, Raph, BJ, Begley, Miles, even Blake and Zac ahead of Dempster.

.
I do not think anyone is calling for Dempster to play in front of BJ, Sam or Gilbert. So comparing him to them is a bit mischievious.

However based upon his playing history Dempster is clearly in front of Begley & Miles.

Based on Raphs' form this year Dempster would be preferred. Though if it was the Raph of last years finals then raph...but we have rarely seen that Raph. with Dempster you are lot more sure what you can get.

With Blake and Dempster it is more line ball and it will depend on the role you want filled. Dempster is a much better user of the ball than Blake. Blake is the better key defender. On the flank I would go for Dempster myself.

I am not sure anyone is really putting Dempster up as a "star"...it is more tinkering with our bootom six to get our balance right.


Our current key likely finals opponents in the Cat's, Dogs and Pies all have several good small forwards...and I am not sure that our current 22 has the right balance to cover more than one small forward.


Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
AnythingsPossibleSaints
SS Life Member
Posts: 3152
Joined: Tue 02 Jun 2009 2:44am
Location: Next to what's next to me.
Has thanked: 71 times
Been thanked: 35 times

Post: # 765614Post AnythingsPossibleSaints »

BigMart wrote:Blake is the weak link of a miserly defence..........he is well suited to CHB on a tall with a big engine, but lately has found himself (due to our ridiculously oversized backline) on a medium......and in trouble when the ball comes in quick......he panics and gives away poor frees....

the opposition often sag off blake when we get the ball in defence......because they know he is not going to take the game on and always pick the safe sideways option....therefore it gives the opposition time to roll back....
I pretty-much agree. If he was playing CHB, or second ruck, then it would be OK, but he just moves and thinks too slowly to be playing on a flank in modern AFL footy. The game just moves much faster than he does now and the main/only reason his kicking efficiency is so high is that he mostly kicks with no-one near him, to a bloke who has no-one near them.
Unless we're playing someone with about 4 "talls" up forward, I reckon we'd be better with someone more mobile/less slow, in that position. I really don't see a match-up for him in Geelong's forward line this week. I could easily see Dempster playing on S Johnson or Chapman, though, if he's ready. And I'm certainly no "Dempster fan" or "Blake hater" either. Having been here for so long I have much more affection for Blake, but this is not a popularity contest. It's the biggest comp in the country and they're being paid big money (including Jason).
To those that ask why we'd want to change the most miserly defence in the league, the answer is very easy- to make it even better.


YOU GET WHAT YOU SETTLE FOR.
aussiejones
Club Player
Posts: 1357
Joined: Wed 07 Apr 2004 8:42pm

Post: # 765622Post aussiejones »

In a few weeks we will see both Dempster and Maguire tested and also Raf given a go .

Reason : Lyon needs to be aware of where they are at in the run up to the finals.

His mantra is to pick the best options for a position , but , having said that he is reluctant to change a winning line up. This unwillingness may be fine for home and away games , but the sights must be firmly set in Lyons mind for the opposition we will face come September......having said that this week is not the week for changes except if Max doesnt come up (or is under a cloud)


User avatar
meher baba
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 7223
Joined: Mon 14 Aug 2006 6:49am
Location: Tasmania
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 516 times

Post: # 765624Post meher baba »

saintsRrising wrote:However based upon his playing history Dempster is clearly in front of Begley & Miles.
Agreed, although possibly not in terms of rebound ability.
Based on Raphs' form this year Dempster would be preferred. Though if it was the Raph of last years finals then raph...but we have rarely seen that Raph. with Dempster you are lot more sure what you can get.
Yes, in terms of overall performance, but I think that - even at his worst (eg, how he has played this year other than in the Rd 1 game) - Raph is more of a rebounder than Dempster.
Dempster is a much better user of the ball than Blake. Blake is the better key defender.
This statement is too much of a stretch for me. Dempster appears to be a better and more accurate kick than Blake (although Blake has improved over the years). But there is surely more to ball use than disposing of it.

These is also getting the ball in the first place and also running with it. Blake has always done a lot more of this than Dempster: even as CHB.

Throughout his career, Dempster has always been a low possession, negating sort of player. This is not a criticism, it is a statement about the role he has tended to play.
Our current key likely finals opponents in the Cat's, Dogs and Pies all have several good small forwards...and I am not sure that our current 22 has the right balance to cover more than one small forward.
Be amazed, I'm with you 150% on this one. In forthcoming big games, if fit, I reckon Dempster on Steve J or Aker or Mark Williams (I still have more faith in the Hawks making it to the PF stage than I do in the Pies) is definitely worth a go. I like him as a tagger, I just don't believe he can do the other stuff as well as Raph or even Blake.

However, wanting to have Dempster in as a tagger of small forwards isn't the same thing as knowing who to leave out in his place. The team that ran out against the Blues and the Tiges had 7 players down back filling 6 necessary roles IMO.

Bringing Dempster in for one of them doesn't solve that problem. Dempster could come in for Geary and Bakes could play more in the midfield (eg, trying to combat the Lings of this world). I wouldn't be surprised if this is what happens on Sunday, assuming that the club considers Dempster to be up for it.

It still doesn't solve the problem of one player too many in the backline. I still think we have to remove one of Blake, Dawson and Max. In the end, injuries may solve the problem for us (eg, forcing Blake into the ruck or into a midfield role).

I just can't see Blake being dropped. To me, he has become an elite backline player. If he were reading some of the criticism of him on here, I'm sure his first response would be "look at the scoreboard" (not only in 2009, but in the second half of 2008).


"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."
- Jonathan Swift
bigcarl
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 18655
Joined: Thu 11 Mar 2004 1:36am
Has thanked: 1994 times
Been thanked: 873 times

Post: # 765628Post bigcarl »

all this talk of dempster coming in for max, but let's not forget that max's return arguably unbalanced a pretty good back six and left us without a specialist third tall forward.

ross might decide to use max's spot to get gwilt or even lynch in or go with an extra mid like armitage.

since structure was a bit of an issue to begin with it wouldn't necessarily be a tall defender in for a tall defender.

again, match-ups are a consideration ... but we shouldn't become too blinded in worrying about what the opposition is doing.

by which i mean, they also have to match up on us.


BigMart
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 13622
Joined: Sat 22 Mar 2008 6:06pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post: # 765641Post BigMart »

Dempster is NOT a tall defender.......nor is Raph

Like Millburn, Mackie, Birchall, Everitt, Hargraves, Drummond, Walker, Mundy, O'Brien, Smith, Bruce, Pettigrew, Bowden......even though they are between 187cm - 192cm they all are running players......and are not strong KPP's


bigcarl
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 18655
Joined: Thu 11 Mar 2004 1:36am
Has thanked: 1994 times
Been thanked: 873 times

Post: # 765643Post bigcarl »

BigMart wrote:Dempster is NOT a tall defender.......nor is Raph
well okay. the point i'm making is why would it necessarily be a defender that comes in?


User avatar
Con Gorozidis
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 23532
Joined: Thu 19 Jun 2008 4:04pm
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 78 times

Post: # 766260Post Con Gorozidis »

bigcarl wrote:
BigMart wrote:Dempster is NOT a tall defender.......nor is Raph
well okay. the point i'm making is why would it necessarily be a defender that comes in?
Sean Dempster #24   St Kilda Saints Age: 25yr 5mth    Games: 73     Born: January 20, 1984     Height: 191cm     Weight: 89kg     Position: Defender


191 cm is almost a tall defender.

i cant help thinking we need another agile defender around 185cm for geelong's small forwards. any suggestions?


Post Reply