The elephant in the room

[Young Georgie]

Destroyed Port where half of Port's list were playing back home in front of family. Led by 70 points at half time interstate against Sydney who never ever get thrashed. Would of beat Geelong if Johnson hadn't of choked from 10 meters out...I'd say they're flying.

We played them 6 weeks ago when we were flying. We are not flying at the moment,far from it.
For what it's worth our 'flying' was much more impressive than the dogs 'flying'. However on the current teams from from the last month,the dogs are going better.

Your assertion is they'd beat us 'comfortably' on current form because they're flying and we're not. I don't know about that. 'Half' Port's side playing in front of family is a ridiculous statement that means nothing. Sure Sydney have not been thrashed often in recent years and there's no denying that was a mighty win but this is a Sydney the likes of which we have not seen in years and who's to say they won't get thrashed a fair bit over the next few seasons? Geelong did not play well against the Dogs and some would argue that they allowed the Dogs in, Johnson's kick is immaterial, he missed, they lost, flying?
Ok Ok they're sort of flying in some manner but up against the Saints on the day, man on man, I'm not convinced that they would beat us at all, let alone comfortably.

[jonesy]

Destroyed Port where half of Port's list were playing back home in front of family. Led by 70 points at half time interstate against Sydney who never ever get thrashed. Would of beat Geelong if Johnson hadn't of choked from 10 meters out...I'd say they're flying.

We played them 6 weeks ago when we were flying. We are not flying at the moment,far from it.
For what it's worth our 'flying' was much more impressive than the dogs 'flying'. However on the current teams from from the last month,the dogs are going better.

Your assertion is they'd beat us 'comfortably' on current form because they're flying and we're not. I don't know about that. 'Half' Port's side playing in front of family is a ridiculous statement that means nothing. Sure Sydney have not been thrashed often in recent years and there's no denying that was a mighty win but this is a Sydney the likes of which we have not seen in years and who's to say they won't get thrashed a fair bit over the next few seasons? Geelong did not play well against the Dogs and some would argue that they allowed the Dogs in, Johnson's kick is immaterial, he missed, they lost, flying?
Ok Ok they're sort of flying in some manner but up against the Saints on the day, man on man, I'm not convinced that they would beat us at all, let alone comfortably.

Well I'm not 100% convinced either. I'm just going on the past months form. If we brought our last 4 weeks game to the table they'd roll us. However what's to say we don't bring back our A game,if we did we'd win. I'm just going on current form,like the OP said

[Young Georgie]

Destroyed Port where half of Port's list were playing back home in front of family. Led by 70 points at half time interstate against Sydney who never ever get thrashed. Would of beat Geelong if Johnson hadn't of choked from 10 meters out...I'd say they're flying.

We played them 6 weeks ago when we were flying. We are not flying at the moment,far from it.
For what it's worth our 'flying' was much more impressive than the dogs 'flying'. However on the current teams from from the last month,the dogs are going better.

Your assertion is they'd beat us 'comfortably' on current form because they're flying and we're not. I don't know about that. 'Half' Port's side playing in front of family is a ridiculous statement that means nothing. Sure Sydney have not been thrashed often in recent years and there's no denying that was a mighty win but this is a Sydney the likes of which we have not seen in years and who's to say they won't get thrashed a fair bit over the next few seasons? Geelong did not play well against the Dogs and some would argue that they allowed the Dogs in, Johnson's kick is immaterial, he missed, they lost, flying?
Ok Ok they're sort of flying in some manner but up against the Saints on the day, man on man, I'm not convinced that they would beat us at all, let alone comfortably.

Well I'm not 100% convinced either. I'm just going on the past months form. If we brought our last 4 weeks game to the table they'd roll us. However what's to say we don't bring back our A game,if we did we'd win. I'm just going on current form,like the OP said

The fact is we both have 4 games to go before we'll know the answer.

Dogs have NM, Haw, Coll, Ess.

Saints have Rich, Cats, WC, Adel.

Then afterwards 5 to go before finally, the finals. Lets see who's flying then.

[Thinline]

Not that I really care, but how big is that Hawks v Dogs game gonna be?

Arguably more hangs on it than on our game with the Cats.

Hawks on the back of a trip to Subiaco, too.

Could be the one that wakes the Hawthorn giant. Equally, could be the one that snuffles it for good, particularly if they trip up when over west the week before, and that ATM is not beyond the realms...

[Young Georgie]

Not that I really care, but how big is that Hawks v Dogs game gonna be?

Arguably more hangs on it than on our game with the Cats.

Hawks on the back of a trip to Subiaco, too.

Could be the one that wakes the Hawthorn giant. Equally, could be the one that snuffles it for good, particularly if they trip up when over west the week before, and that ATM is not beyond the realms...

Big round that. Sure to sort a lot out in the run to the finals. Coll v Ess at the G, PA v BL at AAMI, Freo v Carl at Subi, Syd v NM at SCG, Rich v Adel at Gold Coast (should be Crows but the venue might have a say...). Tough one for tippers.

[SaintWodonga]

Carlton, who are'nt really that good, were the better team on Friday night.

AND

The Dogs would beat us by 5 goals on current form.

Discuss...

Rubbish.. They threw everything at us, even with a gift goal at 3/4 time (which was a joke) we didn't put our foot down, I think the break will do us good. Just remember the good teams win those matches.

[stinger]

Carlton, who are'nt really that good, were the better team on Friday night.

AND

The Dogs would beat us by 5 goals on current form.

Discuss...

better team???...crap...were you there...did you even watch the game...... ...come on you can do better than that....

Stinger, Stinger, Stinger.... READ the orig post, mate.

I appreciate you'd be more likely to read it if it contained some sort of personal swipe, but quite plainly I raised the topics as a DISCUSSION.

Fact is if you stood around any water cooler at the office this morning, that is EXACTLY what would be on the agenda.

Are Carlton any good? If not, are Saints fading? And are the Dogs the form team at the moment?

Why so offended?

I'm curious as to what people think.

And of course I watched it. Fair dinkum. What kind of Sainter wouldn't?

I reckon the game could have gone either way, BTW. I also note they had an extra shot on goal than us, which is often a decent barometer (only one, granted). I think our class on demand (Montagna, Dal Santo goals cases in point) tipped us over the line.

there was no need for the insult........they were not ....i repeat...not,,,,the better side............full stop..........

[stinger]

[


Great game to watch, though I'd have been filthy if we'd lost.

....that it was........

...but....


.... ......we were never gong to lose......these guys don't know how.....


,,,also the blues have lost four close ones....so,,,,,,,i'm betting they don't know how to win.....

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I reckon the game could have gone either way, BTW. I also note they had an extra shot on goal than us, which is often a decent barometer (only one, granted). I think our class on demand (Montagna, Dal Santo goals cases in point) tipped us over the line.

I'd be surprised to learn that a single scoring shot has any meaningful correlation to winning. In fact, I'd bet that if anyone bothered crunching the numbers on it, there would be a +/- of >1, and hence it would be an awful indicator. Don't know why you'd both going by scoring shots when they're that close and the score itself is available, with a 100% correlation to winning...

These days, rushed behinds as a part of defensive football have reduced compared to a year ago, but behinds are still conceded as preferable to goals, and making your way out of defense is getting less and less likely to lead directly to a goal without a contest, as opposed to a clean clearance from the middle.

i.e. 1 behind does not equate to 1 missed shot.

[saintsRrising]

I think many have not come to grips with the fact that the 2009 Blues team is much better than their 2008 team.

The Blues this year could easily have won several more games.


The good thing about all of our games in 2009 is that whenever the Saints have been tested in a game that we have always come back.

[Thinline]

Carlton, who are'nt really that good, were the better team on Friday night.

AND

The Dogs would beat us by 5 goals on current form.

Discuss...

better team???...crap...were you there...did you even watch the game...... ...come on you can do better than that....

Stinger, Stinger, Stinger.... READ the orig post, mate.

I appreciate you'd be more likely to read it if it contained some sort of personal swipe, but quite plainly I raised the topics as a DISCUSSION.

Fact is if you stood around any water cooler at the office this morning, that is EXACTLY what would be on the agenda.

Are Carlton any good? If not, are Saints fading? And are the Dogs the form team at the moment?

Why so offended?

I'm curious as to what people think.

And of course I watched it. Fair dinkum. What kind of Sainter wouldn't?

I reckon the game could have gone either way, BTW. I also note they had an extra shot on goal than us, which is often a decent barometer (only one, granted). I think our class on demand (Montagna, Dal Santo goals cases in point) tipped us over the line.

there was no need for the insult........they were not ....i repeat...not,,,,the better side............full stop..........

Tongue in cheek, mate. Come on...you do enjoy a bit of argy...No insult intended...

[stinger]

okay.... ...seriously though.......they have improved...but have nowhere near the system or game plan of the saints .......

[Violent Stool]

I'm surprised so many Saints fans seem completely content.

I think our last month has been pretty much close to the garbage we served up last year. The type of garbage that relied on our stars putting in super human efforts to get us over the line.

When they were injured earlier last year, we were hopeless.


Early this year, we seemed to be far more even and less reliant on the individual brilliane of 3 or 4. However the past month has seen us slip backwards and once again, we see individual brilliance as the only difference between us and ordinary sides such as Carlton, Melbourne and Essendon.

I'm really surprised you all seem really Ok with that to be honest.

[degruch]

I'm surprised so many Saints fans seem completely content.

I think our last month has been pretty much close to the garbage we served up last year. The type of garbage that relied on our stars putting in super human efforts to get us over the line.

When they were injured earlier last year, we were hopeless.


Early this year, we seemed to be far more even and less reliant on the individual brilliane of 3 or 4. However the past month has seen us slip backwards and once again, we see individual brilliance as the only difference between us and ordinary sides such as Carlton, Melbourne and Essendon.

I'm really surprised you all seem really Ok with that to be honest.

That's nice.

[stinger]

I'm surprised so many Saints fans seem completely content.

I think our last month has been pretty much close to the garbage we served up last year. The type of garbage that relied on our stars putting in super human efforts to get us over the line.

When they were injured earlier last year, we were hopeless.


Early this year, we seemed to be far more even and less reliant on the individual brilliane of 3 or 4. However the past month has seen us slip backwards and once again, we see individual brilliance as the only difference between us and ordinary sides such as Carlton, Melbourne and Essendon.

I'm really surprised you all seem really Ok with that to be honest.

That's nice.

[plugger66]

I'm surprised so many Saints fans seem completely content.

I think our last month has been pretty much close to the garbage we served up last year. The type of garbage that relied on our stars putting in super human efforts to get us over the line.

When they were injured earlier last year, we were hopeless.


Early this year, we seemed to be far more even and less reliant on the individual brilliane of 3 or 4. However the past month has seen us slip backwards and once again, we see individual brilliance as the only difference between us and ordinary sides such as Carlton, Melbourne and Essendon.

I'm really surprised you all seem really Ok with that to be honest.

Carlton are far from an ordinary side. Well the werent on Friday. One of the games of the season. Do not underestimate how good both sides played and how good the game was.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I'm surprised so many Saints fans seem completely content.

I think our last month has been pretty much close to the garbage we served up last year. The type of garbage that relied on our stars putting in super human efforts to get us over the line.

When they were injured earlier last year, we were hopeless.


Early this year, we seemed to be far more even and less reliant on the individual brilliane of 3 or 4. However the past month has seen us slip backwards and once again, we see individual brilliance as the only difference between us and ordinary sides such as Carlton, Melbourne and Essendon.

I'm really surprised you all seem really Ok with that to be honest.

I'm surprised that:

- So many appear to be objective. Whining about 9 point victories in a 12-0 season is to be expected from some, and there's always room for criticism... but given the general flavour of this forum, I avoided the place over the weekend predominantly because I couldn't face the complaints after one of the games of the year. I've found a much more balanced view than I expected to.

- Anyone's still rehashing the old "individual brilliance" card. The Saints probably had 3 passengers on Friday: Kosi, Geary and McEvoy... I'd venture that's the 1st time all season that's been the case, but even if we added Baker and Milne's middling games to that, good performances from Reiwoldt, Goddard, Dal, Montagna, Hayes, Gilbert, Gram, Hudghton and Schneider far outnumber them - as does a goalkickers spread of 10 players. The rest were reasonable, some were less than inspiring (Fisher and Jones were probably beaten), but you can hardly say we were shallow... unless of course, one decided for some reason to throw up the argument just to be argumentative...

- Anyone would draw a parallel between anything the Saints have done in '09 and even the better play in the 2nd half of '08. The improvement has been both incredible and undeniable, regardless of the standings.

IMO, the Saints aren't in the spectacular form they were earlier in the year, and they just saw off a big challenge from a side which gave more than I would have rated them capable of (I wouldn't want to have to rely on Simpson, Bower, Grigg and O'hailpin to reproduce that week on week). I'd like to see the form return, but knowing it exists, I'm not going to panic because it wasn't there for a round 12 matchup that we won.

[sunsaint]

The problem with ignoring the elephant in the room, is that when it decides to stampede you wont know what just hit you.
Am I extatic about being 12-0, you betcha
Am I being pretty cocky about it? Too right I am.
Do we keep winning close hard fought wins? Yes.
But that is not the point, in the last month we have had to fght hard against lesser sides. We should have been in the situation agains the blues with two minutes to go, either side could win it and it takes a backman, much to his over-joyed relief to slot one through from 45mt. (Good onya Zac)

What i see during our games is the situation like in the second quarter, we are 20 points up, 4min to go, and Gardiner holds the ball above his head signalling the slow down. 2 minutes later carlton have slotted goals to level the game up. We take the foot off the pedal and the difference with us being a great team and a good team is huge.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Okay, so let's talk about the real elephant in the room. We obviously want to, or this thread would have died a quick death.

The elephant's not recent form. In the last 4 matches, we've played Carlton, North, Brisbane and Melbourne for 4 wins. Carlton and Brisbane probably fight it out for top 4, and at this stage both need to improve if they're to beat an on song Saints come finals time - the Saints would be hot favorites. The Melbourne and North gaems are getting criticised, but in the end, both wins were worth % of approximately 180.

The 2009 Saints are playing as well as most of us have ever seen our side play, smashing every defensive indicator formulated during this statistical era. The depth is superb at both top and bottom of the selection debate every week, with a wide spread of gamebreakers and role players, with some genuinely talented players who would be 1st 18 elsewhere struggling to break into the side. They sit atop the ladder.

The elephant in the room is that in spite of all this, they're only 2nd favorite for the premiership.

The elephant in the room is that any year until 2007,2008,2009, the conversation would be "who can beat the Saints", but instead the conversation is "can the Saints beat Geelong".

The elephant in the room is that unlike Hawthorn a year ago, we're not just emerging from the rebuild, we're Geelong's peer agewise, and we've only just arrived at the party - and that makes it theis party, until we can prove otherwise.

Geelong are just that good, and until we've seen that head to head we can truly compete (the eventual win or loss will be meaningless in terms of the H&A ladder), and that there's genuine hope of stepping over that mountain in the road to a flag, the rest is window dressing.

Nobody is upset at the Saints season... but this is a fanbase very familiar with bitter disappointment. Until the review of the Saints season doesn't have the "but" of Geelong there is and will be an elephant in the room.

That elephant is Geelong.

[aussiejones]

Would comprehensively flogging every side we have played to date be good for the Saints ?

Carlton brought thier A game on Friday night . Although we had an excellent start ...by half time it was gone . While we could have bursts they were never put away. It was good for the Saints to have a tight game rather than a walk over. They will learn from it and so RL will have ammunition to improve their game during the break.

I am not saying they are getting ahead of themselves but a few sloppy passes and taking the foot off the pedal DID allow goals to Carlton.
If you are going to slow up the game , then the passes Must hit the target.
Op teams that are up and about cannot be let off the hook .

While the Geelong game will make no difference win or loose , it is very important that we are in top form .

[saint75]

Well according to Gerard Healy, our win reflected more on how good Cartlon are and how far away we are from the Cats. Would love to have seen the media had we actually lost. Thanks David King for your defense of us. Glad to see someone in the media knows what they are talking about.

Bring on the second half of the season I say. Few of the media will be taught a lesson for underestimating us.......

[saintsRrising]

The elephant in the room is that in spite of all this, they're only 2nd favorite for the premiership.

The elephant in the room is that any year until 2007,2008,2009, the conversation would be "who can beat the Saints", but instead the conversation is "can the Saints beat Geelong".
.

Given that "elephant in the room" is normally meant to be something obvious that everyone is ignoring...how does this qualify when everyone (or at least nearly everyone) has the Cats as the favourite for the flag?

Yes our % is better...but who actually has the Saints as the No 1 favourite at present?

[Milton66]

Okay, so let's talk about the real elephant in the room. We obviously want to, or this thread would have died a quick death.

The elephant's not recent form. In the last 4 matches, we've played Carlton, North, Brisbane and Melbourne for 4 wins. Carlton and Brisbane probably fight it out for top 4, and at this stage both need to improve if they're to beat an on song Saints come finals time - the Saints would be hot favorites. The Melbourne and North gaems are getting criticised, but in the end, both wins were worth % of approximately 180.

The 2009 Saints are playing as well as most of us have ever seen our side play, smashing every defensive indicator formulated during this statistical era. The depth is superb at both top and bottom of the selection debate every week, with a wide spread of gamebreakers and role players, with some genuinely talented players who would be 1st 18 elsewhere struggling to break into the side. They sit atop the ladder.

The elephant in the room is that in spite of all this, they're only 2nd favorite for the premiership.

The elephant in the room is that any year until 2007,2008,2009, the conversation would be "who can beat the Saints", but instead the conversation is "can the Saints beat Geelong".

The elephant in the room is that unlike Hawthorn a year ago, we're not just emerging from the rebuild, we're Geelong's peer agewise, and we've only just arrived at the party - and that makes it theis party, until we can prove otherwise.

Geelong are just that good, and until we've seen that head to head we can truly compete (the eventual win or loss will be meaningless in terms of the H&A ladder), and that there's genuine hope of stepping over that mountain in the road to a flag, the rest is window dressing.

Nobody is upset at the Saints season... but this is a fanbase very familiar with bitter disappointment. Until the review of the Saints season doesn't have the "but" of Geelong there is and will be an elephant in the room.

That elephant is Geelong.

Very very very well written.

[saintsRrising]

- Anyone's still rehashing the old "individual brilliance" card. The Saints probably had 3 passengers on Friday: Kosi, Geary and McEvoy... .

I think that one of the plusses is that while that every week there has been a few "quiet' players...that it has been different each week.

Furthermore that our top 3-5 players have been different alot of the time too.

ie Gram has been good the last two weeks.

Ray has starred at times etc...

This makes the Saints a lot less predictable and also less reliant.

However it s also true that Roo, Joey, Dal and hayes have bee very good most games...but they are all elite players now.


So far of the players used in the first virtually all have looked competent.

McEvoy is the main acception. He is still too raw. On what we have seen so far we would hope that King and gardiner

Raph has unfortunately been in poor form. Is capable of better as we saw in late 2009.

Eddy was ok...and no one would groan in horror if he was recalled.

Geary has bye and large been good, but his last two weeks have been quiet.

Gwilt has been ok-ish. HFF remains our No 1 deficiency...unless someone else stands up there Gqwilt may well end up playing the role come finals.


Baker....has been ok-ish....but a small backamen is alsoan area of concern. Hopefully Bakes can run into better form, or maybe Miles emerge??

Most other areas are fine....with Zac emerging Goose has not been missed down back. Midfield has been overflowing and so Armo has not been able to geta look in.