Tough Decisions To Be Made - Are You Up To It

ace · Post: # 751129Post **ace** » Thu 04 Jun 2009 1:12pm

Beno88 wrote:Cahill cannot be delisted. Any player picked up in the national draft must remain on the senior list for a minimum of two years.

The only players under threat at this stage would be Leigh Fisher, Connors and Allen. Along with some of the rookies.

THe AFL player agreement says

9. PLAYERS UNDER 18 YEARS OF AGE
9.1 In respect of a Player who is included on the List of an AFL Club before the Player
attains the age of 18 years:
(a) the AFL Club which lists the Player shall:
(i) contract the Player for a minimum of two years;

Lynch, Heyne, Smith and Cahill all turned 18 before last years national draft so they would already have been 18 before their listing.

Stanley turned 18 on 1 December 2008 after the national draft so he would have been entitled to a two year contract.

The others may well have been given two year contracts but the cost to the salary cap for delisting a third round or higher 2008 drafted player and paying him out is only his minimum second year salary of $50,300.

BringBackMadDog · Thu 04 Jun 2009 1:24pm

Young players who are not progressing would include
Eljay Connors
Paul Cahill
Alistair Smith
Nicholas Heyne
Rhys Stanley
Tom Lynch
Jack Steven
Ben McEvoy

Surely you're taking the p1ss..... 18 year old kids who have been in the system for less than a year. Have you even seen them play. Geez there is some crap written on this site[/b]

spert · Post: # 751151Post **spert** » Thu 04 Jun 2009 1:54pm

Goose will be at Carlton next year

plugger66 · Post: # 751154Post **plugger66** » Thu 04 Jun 2009 1:57pm

ace wrote:
Beno88 wrote:Cahill cannot be delisted. Any player picked up in the national draft must remain on the senior list for a minimum of two years.

The only players under threat at this stage would be Leigh Fisher, Connors and Allen. Along with some of the rookies.
THe AFL player agreement says
9. PLAYERS UNDER 18 YEARS OF AGE
9.1 In respect of a Player who is included on the List of an AFL Club before the Player
attains the age of 18 years:
(a) the AFL Club which lists the Player shall:
(i) contract the Player for a minimum of two years;
Lynch, Heyne, Smith and Cahill all turned 18 before last years national draft so they would already have been 18 before their listing.

Stanley turned 18 on 1 December 2008 after the national draft so he would have been entitled to a two year contract.

The others may well have been given two year contracts but the cost to the salary cap for delisting a third round or higher 2008 drafted player and paying him out is only his minimum second year salary of $50,300.

Every player drafted in the main draft must be given 2 years. They can be given more than 2 years but not less. they can also be delisted after one year. That was going to change but hasnt yet. They must be paid out for the second year.

bigcarl · Post: # 751169Post **bigcarl** » Thu 04 Jun 2009 2:20pm

spert wrote:Goose will be at Carlton next year

i'd hate to see that.

very strong key position player and it would make them a dangerous opponent with him at chf.

however, if he cannot break into our team you wouldn't begrudge him.

personally i'd prefer it if he can break in and remains a saint. still only 24 or just turned 25.

saintlee · Post: # 751197Post **saintlee** » Thu 04 Jun 2009 3:03pm

spert wrote:Goose will be at Carlton next year

What would they offer us for him?

Not sure he's worth a 1st round pick anymore, and this draft is shallow by all accounts.....not sure there would be much in it for us to trade him

saintly · Post: # 751241Post **saintly** » Thu 04 Jun 2009 4:20pm

BringBackMadDog wrote:
Young players who are not progressing would include
Eljay Connors
Paul Cahill
Alistair Smith
Nicholas Heyne
Rhys Stanley
Tom Lynch
Jack Steven
Ben McEvoy
Surely you're taking the p1ss..... 18 year old kids who have been in the system for less than a year. Have you even seen them play. Geez there is some crap written on this site[/b]

unless the kids have done something wrong, i would seriously doubt that ross would delist them after only 1 year.

besides. lynch, stanley, sam mcgarry even steven has been in BOG at various times this year.
Mcevoy played once this year and did ok. tall players take time.

saintbrat · Post: # 751262Post **saintbrat** » Thu 04 Jun 2009 4:55pm

can't you lot just enjoy the team and the games for a while???

why the need to ' cut loose" after 10 rounds?

I'm sure those at the club who need to do that have their thoughts in tune- BUT why would delist young players who haven't had achance because we ARE ON TOP OF THE LADDER

mad saint guy · Thu 04 Jun 2009 5:15pm

Retire
Steven Baker - Has been slowing down since his B&F year. We now have many younger options for the primary tagger

Max Hudghton - Could go another year if he wants, but with so many tall defenders this is the first time we could cope without him.

Delist
Xavier Clarke - Huge potential but has never been able to stand up to the physicality of AFL footy. He's had 7 years to get his body right but something always goes wrong. Genetics cost him big time.

Leigh Fisher - Looked well on his way to being a gun in 2006, but injured his hamstring late season and has never been the same. Lyon doesn't rate him and is too far down the list for someone of his age and attributes.

Colm Begley - Behind many others. Hasn't done much wrong at Casey, but hasn't shown the kind of improvement required to hold an AFL spot.

Matt Maguire - Trade if possible, but I have serious doubts over his ability to return to his 2004 form. Lacks the height, pace and agility to go with most forwards these days and isn't skilled enough to be a forward.

Rookies
Dawson - Elevate
Miles - Elevate
Howard - Delist
Haretuku - Delist
McGarry - Retain
McGrath - Retain
Tungatalum - Retain
Gaertner - Retain
Simpkin - Retain

I also wouldn't lose any sleep if Gwilt or Eddy were delisted, but they seem to be some of Lyon's favourites.

vacuous space · Thu 04 Jun 2009 5:52pm

Beno88 wrote:Cahill cannot be delisted. Any player picked up in the national draft must remain on the senior list for a minimum of two years.

That's not true. A drafted player gets a two-year contract. That doesn't mean he gets the two years. Clayton Collard was delisted by Freo after one year in 2007. Tim Hutchison and Austin Lucy were delisted after one year in 2006. AFAIK, you can delist a player after their first year, but if they don't get picked up, you have to pay them for their second year.

ace · Post: # 751442Post **ace** » Thu 04 Jun 2009 7:42pm

spert wrote:Goose will be at Carlton next year

Goose MUST get at least one more game this year to guarantee that any goslings can be drafted to St Kilda under the father-son rule.

starsign · Post: # 751493Post **starsign** » Thu 04 Jun 2009 8:58pm

This gets my vote for the crappiest post I've ever read

though I concede you've gotta right ..an it's a forum to discuss what ever issues you like ...but
Shchnietzenhowzer! you buggers haven't bled yet as devout Sainters or you wouldn't be filling your room temperature IQ brains with this bloody drivell
for hells sake we are 10 zip and maybe , just possibly, maybe, in with a great chance of winning our second EVER premiership
Why the F!@#$ can't you stay in the NOW ! sit back and for goodness sake enjoy it!
Aside note here (...half this countries young 20 -40 year olds are suffering from clinical depression, and most are oblivious to the fact...brought about mainly by worrying too much about what "might" happen in the future!
most of the time it doesn't happen as they envisage!
In the meantime they miss out on the beaut things that are
ACTUALLY HAPPENING AROUND THEM in the NOW!!
and just quietly you never know what the footy gods have in store for you ...career ending injuries are just one little aspect you haven't worried about yet or taken into account in this pathetic crystal-balling bullshite ...better get on to thinking about the worst that might happen along those lines as well while your at it ...idiots!!

DWOODROW · Post: # 751499Post **DWOODROW** » Thu 04 Jun 2009 9:07pm

starsign wrote:This gets my vote for the crappiest post I've ever read
Shchnietzenhowzer! you buggers haven't bled yet as devout Sainters or you wouldn't be filling your room temperature IQ brains with this bloody drivell
for hells sake we are 10 zip and maybe , just possibly, maybe, in with a great chance of winning our second EVER premiership
Why the F!@#$ can't you stay in the NOW ! sit back and for goodness sake enjoy it!
Aside note here (...half this countries young 20 -40 year olds are suffering from clinical depression, and most are oblivious to the fact...brought about mainly by worrying too much about what "might" happen in the future!
most of the time it doesn't happen as they envisage!
In the meantime they miss out on the beaut things that are
ACTUALLY HAPPENING AROUND THEM in the NOW!!
and just quietly you never know what the footy gods have in store for you ...career ending injuries are just one little aspect you haven't worried about yet or taken into account in this pathetic crystal-balling bullshite ...better get on to thinking about the worst that might happen along those lines as well while your at it ...idiots!!

Nice one

BigMart · Post: # 751511Post **BigMart** » Thu 04 Jun 2009 9:23pm

Some fans can sit back and just enjoy our 'success' others may like to look at ways to achieve real, sustained success....

Question is.....have we succeeded just yet???

fact is....we have won ten games.....and achieved no success atm...

maybe we could put together another DVD on a winning streak - if a 'streak' is seen as successful..

IMO Success is making finals, winning finals and a premiership......

in order to do that, tough decisions need to be made......making the thread relevant

starsign · Post: # 751525Post **starsign** » Thu 04 Jun 2009 9:38pm

BigMart wrote:Some fans can sit back and just enjoy our 'success' others may like to look at ways to achieve real, sustained success....

Question is.....have we succeeded just yet???

fact is....we have won ten games.....and achieved no success atm...

maybe we could put together another DVD on a winning streak - if a 'streak' is seen as successful..

IMO Success is making finals, winning finals and a premiership......

in order to do that, tough decisions need to be made......making the thread relevant

Please forgive me if I'm wrong here but wasn't the opening sentence to this thread about making tough decisions focused on the future thus:.....

It is easy to pick your best 22 but it becomes a lot harder when you are asked who would you cut loose at the end of the year.

you seemed to have missed the point entirely! Big Mart!!
the OP is all about AFTER this year

mine is lets worry about this year and THEN see who to cut loose
any other thoughts on the topic to my simple brain seem a tad premature and at the least irrelevant!

plugger66 · Post: # 751527Post **plugger66** » Thu 04 Jun 2009 9:40pm

starsign wrote:
BigMart wrote:Some fans can sit back and just enjoy our 'success' others may like to look at ways to achieve real, sustained success....

Question is.....have we succeeded just yet???

fact is....we have won ten games.....and achieved no success atm...

maybe we could put together another DVD on a winning streak - if a 'streak' is seen as successful..

IMO Success is making finals, winning finals and a premiership......

in order to do that, tough decisions need to be made......making the thread relevant
Please forgive me if I'm wrong here but wasn't the opening sentence to this thread about making tough decisions thus:.....

It is easy to pick your best 22 but it becomes a lot harder when you are asked who would you cut loose at the end of the year.

you seemed to have missed the point entirely!!!
the OP is all about AFTER this year

mine is lets worry about this tear and THEN see who to cut loose
anything other thoughts to my simple brain seem a tad premature and at the least irrelevant!

Yes you have it in one.

CeilidhSaint · Thu 04 Jun 2009 10:15pm

Forget the balls theory...as has been said, we've won 10 and this thread is way too early - let me paint a picture - if Luke Ball gets injured and we need another in and under midfielder, who would come up? D. Armitage maybe, L.Fisher maybe (I hope!). What happens, they do really well and play in some finals. Maybe win a premiership. Are we having this conversation? No. There are probably 15 games to go in this season and plenty of water to pass....and as for your "not performing" list...give me a break! McEvoy - in 1sts this week!? Steven - BOG at Sandy last week, emergency in finals last year!? Miles - Emergency!?

saint patrick · Fri 05 Jun 2009 12:06am

Young players who are not progressing would include
Nicholas Heyne !!!!!!!!

Isn't it Nicks first year FFS!!!

and isn't he 20 or there abouts???

kosifantutti23 · Fri 05 Jun 2009 12:16am

This thread will look stupid at the end of the year if some of these players nominated have premiership medallions hanging round their neck.

ace · Post: # 751595Post **ace** » Fri 05 Jun 2009 12:17am

mad saint guy wrote:Delist
Colm Begley - Behind many others. Hasn't done much wrong at Casey, but hasn't shown the kind of improvement required to hold an AFL spot.

Ah! so he has been playing for Casey, no wonder he hasn't been considered for senior selection.
He doesn't know which team he should be playing for.
He wouldn't happen to be Irish would he?

mad saint guy · Fri 05 Jun 2009 10:50am

ace wrote:
mad saint guy wrote:Delist
Colm Begley - Behind many others. Hasn't done much wrong at Casey, but hasn't shown the kind of improvement required to hold an AFL spot.
Ah! so he has been playing for Casey, no wonder he hasn't been considered for senior selection.
He doesn't know which team he should be playing for.
He wouldn't happen to be Irish would he?

saintsRrising · Fri 05 Jun 2009 1:20pm

Ok.....a few thoughts...

** This years draft is predicted to be shallow...and we will have our first pick late in the game...hopeully last

** Our list is performing well...and there is an excellent batch of younger players and rookies... these players need to be developed. remember Lyon's 4 year comment.

** In the main I am expecting minimal changes this year due to the above.

****** Khan may make way for other NSW rookies as there are two likely lads.

******Quite possibly only two senior players may be delisted. Maybe 3.
******If Dempster comes back ok..Begly may only get one year. But that is ok as with Zac and Begley we took out insurance as Max, Goose, and Dempster all had clouds over them. With ray, eddy and Geary we now have extra options for HB as well..as so the Beley "Insurance" is no longer required.

****** leigh Fisher has down nothing wrong...but our depth may squeeze him out so that we can drafta kid.

******X is staying. will be given one moe shot post acl.

******some of rookies wil need to go...Howard must be on thin ground.

** Lyon and Drain have proven to be superb traders...so no doubt they will be alert for deals of advantage that would suit us....but our only real lack at present would seem to be a mid-sized HF...and they are not in huge supply....so with a lot of players knocking down the door for senior selection if would not surprise me if we just go for kids for them to come on in 3/4 years time.

** One could possibly speculate that Armo could be used to secure some draft picks...but then again he may go on to play 200 games. Personally I would not mind seeing him tried at HF now.

** our ruck stocks are looking healthy with the impressive early form of Stanley. So adding him to Ben and the rookie Macgrath you get a good chance of having two future ruckman. So in this years draft I would anticipate not taking anymore ruckman.

Red Balls · Post: # 751765Post **Red Balls** » Fri 05 Jun 2009 1:50pm

The four likely to go are : Eljay, Leigh Fisher, Hudghton (Retd) & Cahill. Armitage is a possibility for Qld because he is surplus to requirements (at the moment) but he has the class to be near the top of a 'Wants' list. Jarryd Allen & X Clarke are also at risk because of injury concerns, as are Begley and Miles for different reasons. Stanley, Lynch, Steven and McEvoy (particularly the latter) are solid performaer at VFL level. Smith & Heyne need more time. Everybody else should stay.

saintsRrising · Fri 05 Jun 2009 1:54pm

Red Balls wrote:The four likely to go are : Eljay, Leigh Fisher, Hudghton (Retd) & Cahill. Armitage is a possibility for Qld because he is surplus to requirements (at the moment) but he has the class to be near the top of a 'Wants' list. Jarryd Allen & X Clarke are also at risk because of injury concerns, as are Begley and Miles for different reasons. Stanley, Lynch, Steven and McEvoy (particularly the latter) are solid performaer at VFL level. Smith & Heyne need more time. Everybody else should stay.

I can't see Allen going...as we need a third " forward" as just about our main area to improve in.

He will be givena chance to strut his stuff..so IMO he will be playing in 2010.

DWOODROW · Post: # 751783Post **DWOODROW** » Fri 05 Jun 2009 2:27pm

well just to put things in perspective about the Gold Coast and Armitage. He hasn't been contacted by anyone, he hasn't thought about it and he REALLY wants to stay at Saint Kilda. Why is everyone saying he is going to the Coast. It is a long way away. There another 12 games in the season FFS. Unless an actual offer was drawn up and offered to him, he would not and is not even considering playing for anyone except St Kilda. He is next in line when an onballer( should it eventuate) go down with injury. Ross is happy with his performances in Casey and I am happy with that. Hard team to crack but there is alot of speculation of things that might happen. Get some proof before rumour Mungering.