Gram

[St Fidelius]

Yes if you want to be black and white about it but it's not. As I will ask you again (and I agree his disposal and efficiency rate is poorer) is a player under pressure running at full steam kicking to 40 - 50 metre targets going to find accuracy more difficult.

Compared to a defensive style slow backman like Blake who likes to hold up play looking for a safe option to lay off a 15 meter chip?

I'm under the belief that the more inside 50s you get the more opportunities to kick goals. I don't know the answer to this but are all these long kicks sending the ball deep into attack from defence from Gram totally unproductive?

They may not hit targets and miss goals but are they ALL rebounding turnovers that dramatically hurt us? Or are any of them creating pressure on opposition defence that end up a goal a bit later from another player simply because the ball was sent up there 8 possessions earlier from a big ugly shank and forgotten?

Do you go to games??

Do you see the amount of times that Grams disposals results in turnovers and in some cases a goal to the opposition??

Yeah run and carry is a great gig ....

he seems to have no responsibility to the player his again aligned to, but hey..

F*** that if you can run and bounce and have no responsibility,


lets go with someone with a bit of courage and lay some tackles, and be accountable when his opponent runs off and gains possessions that matter..

I really cant wait for Colm Begley to emerge and just show Gram some few things in run and chase....

but back that up with being responsible on the player you are assigned t9

[bergholt]

Yes if you want to be black and white about it but it's not. As I will ask you again (and I agree his disposal and efficiency rate is poorer) is a player under pressure running at full steam kicking to 40 - 50 metre targets going to find accuracy more difficult.

Compared to a defensive style slow backman like Blake who likes to hold up play looking for a safe option to lay off a 15 meter chip?

yup. there's no doubt that a lot of the high disposal efficiency of the back six comes from chipping it around. no doubt at all. half of blake's kicks are as the second link in the chain when we're switching play across the defensive 50.

how many times have you seen this passage of play this year? dawson has it in the back pocket, turns sideways, kicks to blake who's in an acre of space on his own 40 out from the opposition goal, who then turns and kicks it across the ground further to fisher or montagna or cj or raph on the other half back flank.

it's an important role but not as hard to play as being the man who receives the handball in traffic 60 out and decides whether to pass to the leading forward, shoot himself or give off another handpass. admittedly gram shoots too often in that circumstance, but he's still playing an important role in the side.

[Winmar7Fan]

Yes if you want to be black and white about it but it's not. As I will ask you again (and I agree his disposal and efficiency rate is poorer) is a player under pressure running at full steam kicking to 40 - 50 metre targets going to find accuracy more difficult.

Compared to a defensive style slow backman like Blake who likes to hold up play looking for a safe option to lay off a 15 meter chip?

yup. there's no doubt that a lot of the high disposal efficiency of the back six comes from chipping it around. no doubt at all. half of blake's kicks are as the second link in the chain when we're switching play across the defensive 50.

how many times have you seen this passage of play this year? dawson has it in the back pocket, turns sideways, kicks to blake who's in an acre of space on his own 40 out from the opposition goal, who then turns and kicks it across the ground further to fisher or montagna or cj or raph on the other half back flank.

it's an important role but not as hard to play as being the man who receives the handball in traffic 60 out and decides whether to pass to the leading forward, shoot himself or give off another handpass. admittedly gram shoots too often in that circumstance, but he's still playing an important role in the side.

Exactly right FFS thanks. All I'm trying to say is Eff ratings (like a lots of stats) don't take a lot into account for a true over all assessment on the player.

If Raph drops easy marks or fumbles around trying to pick up the ball and loses it or gets run down and locked up in tackles because he's too slow does that affect his high Eff rating? No

Then what If Gram takes the ball from half back has 3 bounces and sends it deep inside 50 falling short bouncing to Scarlet and he gets tackled and it spills to Milne who snaps a goal?

We know it goes straight down as a poor disposal on his Eff rating but IMO the result made it very effective.

Even if half his disposals are bad yes he needs to improve but plenty of those are up in our attacking area where you want them to be.

F**k his Eff rating, improving his disposal will make him a top 10 player but even now he is still contributing comfortably enough IMO to keep his spot.

[jonesy]

Gram is in our top 5 in terms of importance to the side. End of story

[BringBackMadDog]

Gram is in our top 5 in terms of importance to the side. End of story

Ummm.... Riewoldt, Hayes, Dal, Montagna, Goddard, S. Fisher, Gardiner, S. Gilbert, Kosi are all far more important to our side in terms of structure than Gram is.

[jonesy]

Disagree,strongly

[skeptic]

Gram is in our top 5 in terms of importance to the side. End of story

what a superb argument
check mate

[St Fidelius]

Gram is in our top 5 in terms of importance to the side. End of story

Very hard to suggest just who is in our top 5 in terms of importance IMO

CJ could also be considered this season with his tagging role, he has shut down a number of quality players as well as being able to kick 5 goals and have 11 score assists.

Much the same can be said for most of the players in the back half IMO.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Exactly right FFS thanks. All I'm trying to say is Eff ratings (like a lots of stats) don't take a lot into account for a true over all assessment on the player.

If Raph drops easy marks or fumbles around trying to pick up the ball and loses it or gets run down and locked up in tackles because he's too slow does that affect his high Eff rating? No

Then what If Gram takes the ball from half back has 3 bounces and sends it deep inside 50 falling short bouncing to Scarlet and he gets tackled and it spills to Milne who snaps a goal?

We know it goes straight down as a poor disposal on his Eff rating but IMO the result made it very effective.

Even if half his disposals are bad yes he needs to improve but plenty of those are up in our attacking area where you want them to be.

F**k his Eff rating, improving his disposal will make him a top 10 player but even now he is still contributing comfortably enough IMO to keep his spot.

In the scenario suggested above, Gram would be awarded:
1) An effective kick (long kick to a contest is fine).
2) An inside 50.

It should be noted that behind the obvious goal then goal assist, the single most valuable kick on the ground is the effective inside 50, which sets up a scoring chance.

Backmen - regardless of team - have higher efficiency across the board, not only because they chip it around, but becuase they're kicking to the open parts of the ground far more often. The stat may not take into account position by itself, but it doesn't take a lot to figure out who's disposing well and who isn't. Raph and Dawson are, without much pressure. Gram's under more pressure, but really, really isn't disposing well.

Gram's poor kicking efficiency comes because he blazes away far too often. Similar to Maguire, when in doubt, he goes long. By the same token, these are some of the worst clanger situations in the game... not only does it turn a scoring chance into a defensive situation, the ball comes back at you fast while you're out of position.

For mine, the difference between Gram and a really good player is being a little less hungry from outside 50 with his shots. Either get closer or pass the ball. He's taken plenty of shots and nailed only a couple.

The difference between Gram and a great player is taking the time to correct his kicking, cand calming down so that he can still take the shots, but convert.

[bigcarl]

i know grammy sprays a few, but you could never accuse him of giving the opposition time to get numbers back.

his value is in getting it to our big forwards quicky.

there are others who do it more accurately, but no one does it faster imo.

since that is his great strength and value to the team i wouldn't want to see him try to stamp it out of his game

... but there are times when he just needs to take a deep breath before letting launch.

[To the top]

So answer me this.

If you have a player who receives and controls the ball well, finds space well, moves quickly with the ball including whilst bouncing the ball making significant yardage in the process why, oh why, would you then want him to dink a little kick to someone and maybe even someone behind him to improve his "kicking efficiency"?

Particularly when we can now afford to have the likes of Riewoldt, Koschitzke and Milne (including now defensively) up ahead of Gram - if Gram decides not to pot on goal from 50 or just outside or just inside himself?

The idea is to get it in there quick so those players have the advantage of one on one contests - so you add to the yardage gained whilst in possession of the ball by kicking long.

And if you kick 60 metres there is just a chance you are not going to put it right on the chest of a forward.

I just do not know what you people expect from a player.

Gram plays his part, and it is a very important part including because of the shots he can manufacture on goal by making his way to within HIS striking distance.

Some of the players some on here bag truly amazes me.

[St Fidelius]

So answer me this.

If you have a player who receives and controls the ball well, finds space well, moves quickly with the ball including whilst bouncing the ball making significant yardage in the process why, oh why, would you then want him to dink a little kick to someone and maybe even someone behind him to improve his "kicking efficiency"?

Particularly when we can now afford to have the likes of Riewoldt, Koschitzke and Milne (including now defensively) up ahead of Gram - if Gram decides not to pot on goal from 50 or just outside or just inside himself?

The idea is to get it in there quick so those players have the advantage of one on one contests - so you add to the yardage gained whilst in possession of the ball by kicking long.

And if you kick 60 metres there is just a chance you are not going to put it right on the chest of a forward.

I just do not know what you people expect from a player.

Gram plays his part, and it is a very important part including because of the shots he can manufacture on goal by making his way to within HIS striking distance.

Some of the players some on here bag truly amazes me.

It sound great in theory but, it has not happen this year and at least the second part of last year...

I have seen some of his handballs result in goals to the opposition last year...

I have seen his "so called 60 bombs go to the opposition or no where and result in the opposition getting the ball and providing extra pressure in our back half

I have seen his kicks result in too much hang time that our player is covered and a spoil is the result..


Yes, he can "run and carry" and have no responsibility what so ever on his opponent, he can let his opponent do what ever he likes, as long as he can "run and carry"...

pretty good gig but he just needs to delever more often and this year he has been down in that area...

Far too many turn overs as seen from the naked eye.

Again, all I am saying that there is a lot more improvement in his game..

He has, to me an easier gig than some, and has not really achieved the best out of it.

He needs to improve IMO

[saintly_safes]

Unfortunatley this post is heading the same way as most tend to do on this site.As soon as someone disagrees with someone elses point of view the insults start flying & ends up an epic.

[skeptic]

Talk about a backward conversation

the debate about Gram is not just that he sprays a few going forward

a lot of his kicks going forward are not under pressure

some of his clangers are not errors, they're poor judgement

[Ghost Like]

I see his value as someone once they've got the ball they draw opposition players into him, creating holes and space for runners beside him. Every opposition team knows (regardless of his current efficiency) that he is one St Kilda player you don't let get near the 50m arc.

This is where his game needs improving, once they close in, he needs to make the correct decision, whether to dish off or kick it to 20m in front of goal.

I said in yet another earlier Gram thread that the skills coaches need to sit him down with a bunch of Andrew McLeod tapes and watch how he makes correct decisions and disposes of the ball correctly whilst at full tilt.

I think he's vital to our success this year and keeping our forward line open by breaking lines and kicking long. I imagine his form and confidence is something the coaches will be spending hours on.

[Milton66]

I've jumped in late, so here goes...

Gram plays a pivotal role in our set up, manely "run and carry". He has pace, can run through the lines and kick goals from 50.

Comparatively, BJ can do the same with better accuracy, but doesn't have the pace.

X is gawn all year.

Dal gets tagged.

Ray looms as the only other option, but I'm not sure if he has a penetrating kick like Gram.

So, given his lack of form, who do you give his role to?

Plus he gives us extra speed in the midfield.

[barks4eva]

Gram is in our top 5 in terms of importance to the side. End of story

Are you on drugs?

[To the top]

Why is it, when we play Adelaide, we are quite, quite happy for McLeod to run around with the ball?

Why don't we tag him?

Because we do not.

We are quite, quite happy for him to have the ball in the positions he gets it in and to do with it what he does with it.

Because it all comes to nothing. He can look dangerous but he is not dangerous.

Gram is different, and hence this guy, who kicked GOALS from half back is now a vital mid-field player, plying his damaging assets by absolutely pumping the ball deep into our F50 now from a mid-field rotation.

His form this year has been very good.

It may well be that he incurred an injury which had him unable to train and he may have missed a physio appointment which bought a rebuke and a late inclusion in the VFL (from not being chosen in either side on the Thursday night when speculation was an injury due to reports of him on - or more correctly not on - the training track).

It may also be a case of no train, no play - and then he insisted on a VFL gig.

Those occurances, which are the known facts except any insistance that he wanted to play, are not matters of form.

His form was not the issue.

He was winning plenty of the ball during his mid-field rotations and he was, as ever, very dangerous with it because he is a player who can take someone on and win that contest, then driving the ball deep on goal.

His ability is to use his pace and carry to straighten up and not be forced to a flank.

He is a player opposition sides must control - and they rarely, if ever, do.

I am one who is always happy to see the ball in Gram's hands.

[send out the runner]

Team Rules for gram:

1/ When outside 40 from goal - must pass no exceptions
2/ When inside 40 - shoot and hope for the best
3/ get "a" hard ball get
4/ Command respect by hitting hard in a contested situation
and finally
5/ stop looking at yourself on the big screen

[ace]

There is only one stat that counts in the grand final.
That is the number that comes after goals and behinds.
It is called POINTS.
If your team has more of them than the opposition every member of the team gets a premiership medal.
The club gets a premiership cup and flag.
The club supporters get very happy.

[ace]

From an interview with Xavier Clarke

St Kilda's decision to leave in-form defender Jason Gram out of its senior line-up two weeks ago was in keeping with a zero-tolerance stance on the pursuit of professionalism, Clarke said.

"The club in the last two or three years has built a strong reputation on being as professional as you can and doing everything you can and doing everything right to play great footy," Clarke said.

"We are in a position where the players are going really well and we can't afford to lay back and take things easy."

Gram was clearly left out of the team against Brisbane because he wasn't playing as required by the coach.

[Beej]

Roo, Lenny, Chips, Joey and Dal all more important than Gram.

But Gram gives us another dimension in that he has the combination of pace and the ability to get himself into goal-scoring positions.

I don't think I've seen Gram kick so poorly. He's always shanked his fair few but this has got to be a new low for him.

[plugger66]

From an interview with Xavier Clarke

St Kilda's decision to leave in-form defender Jason Gram out of its senior line-up two weeks ago was in keeping with a zero-tolerance stance on the pursuit of professionalism, Clarke said.

"The club in the last two or three years has built a strong reputation on being as professional as you can and doing everything you can and doing everything right to play great footy," Clarke said.

"We are in a position where the players are going really well and we can't afford to lay back and take things easy."

Gram was clearly left out of the team against Brisbane because he wasn't playing as required by the coach.

No he wasnt. He was as reported left out because he missed a rehab session. Where does it say with what you quoted that he was left out because of form.

[Ghost Like]

From an interview with Xavier Clarke

St Kilda's decision to leave in-form defender Jason Gram out of its senior line-up two weeks ago was in keeping with a zero-tolerance stance on the pursuit of professionalism, Clarke said.

"The club in the last two or three years has built a strong reputation on being as professional as you can and doing everything you can and doing everything right to play great footy," Clarke said.

"We are in a position where the players are going really well and we can't afford to lay back and take things easy."

Gram was clearly left out of the team against Brisbane because he wasn't playing as required by the coach.

No he wasnt. He was as reported left out because he missed a rehab session. Where does it say with what you quoted that he was left out because of form.

Have to agree, no where in that statement by X does it say Gram wasn't playing as required by the coach. Seems like he wasn't preparing himself to play as required by the club's leaders. Small difference I know but clearly it was not a formbanishment, more disciplinary.

Can I ask To The Top, who he would prefer at Gram's age, Andrew MacLeod or Gram? I agree that perhaps his best and most dangerous form has long past over the past couple of years but MacLeod in his prime was probably the most dangerous player in the Crow's history, after D. Jarman.

I agree with you, I'm another who likes seeing the ball in Gram's hands, taking on the opposition, making them panic. He will be our complete runner though if he can tighten up in a few areas, namely disposal and decision making.

[Moccha]

I reckon Gram is just a lazy sod. Good footballer but doesn't seem to have much passion. He might regret it in years to come if he doesn't pull his finger out.