Too many weak links and passengers

[Teflon]

It's about pin ups not the best players. Some posters would prefer to see their favourite player in the line up than a win. The fact that their favourite player is a liability rather than an asset is lost on them.

I have a simplistic motto, the team that is winning is the winning team. We invest the selection authority to those who are paid for the job, which is a bit ironic because almost us would do it free.

However, that's how it goes. They have picked a team and "viola", it's won ten straight. I'm not sure how anyone can argue with that, but they have - and in droves.

I get amazed at these posts.

Its like saying "dont talk about the weather cause you cant do anything about it....."....plenty still like to talk about the weather.....so what?

This is a footy site - full of passionate saints fans all with differing views right or wrong they are entitled to it.

We all know we dont control selection. We all know the club employs people to do this - so because of this....any discussion against club employee decisions is banned?

FWIW - I dont have pin up players - but I do believe this side, from what was fielded on the weekend, can be made stronger. I also believe it will need to get stronger againts a side that is one of the best of the last decade. Im also of the view we have dropped off the intensity/urgency we had at seasons start and our finishing skills have slipped with it.

Is this our lull? .....geez thatd be nice if it was....

[The Craw]

I get amazed at these posts.

Its like saying "dont talk about the weather cause you cant do anything about it....."....plenty still like to talk about the weather.....so what?

This is a footy site - full of passionate saints fans all with differing views right or wrong they are entitled to it.

Not quite sure why you would be amazed. Perfectionist has offered their opinion. I really cannot see where they have had a go at anyone else except to say that they cannot understand why you would want to change the team.

Suffice to say, because it does not come into line with your view therefore of course you would be amazed, you are the self appointed guru.

I shall await for permission to post again oh exulted one.

[saint66au]

It's about pin ups not the best players. Some posters would prefer to see their favourite player in the line up than a win. The fact that their favourite player is a liability rather than an asset is lost on them.

I have a simplistic motto, the team that is winning is the winning team. We invest the selection authority to those who are paid for the job, which is a bit ironic because almost us would do it free.

However, that's how it goes. They have picked a team and "viola", it's won ten straight. I'm not sure how anyone can argue with that, but they have - and in droves.

Id agree with you, except that your previous form means I translate this post as "Too many people think that over-rated hack Max Hudghton should be playing"

Sorry, but you were/are the one getting the boots into Max at every opportunity

[starsign]

FWIW - I dont have pin up players - but I do believe this side, from what was fielded on the weekend, can be made stronger. I also believe it will need to get stronger againts a side that is one of the best of the last decade.

Yep agreed it will have to get stronger and I agree wholeheartedly with your well thought out post initially

My point would be this should be our overall goal by September (and that's where the major focus should and I hope lies with the coaching/selection panels
NOT specifically by R14 v the Cats!
In fact a loss (as destinct from a hiding) in R14 would IMHO be to our advantage

History has shown that many premierships have been won by teams over sides that defeated them in the Home & Away
(someone did quote the stat way back , I can't recall exactly but remember it was quite significant)

The Geelong "focus" doesn't come from here , to those that seemed worried by it . Its been on the coaches agenda to the players from pre-season ad nauseum!
That's why I recon the powers that be won't be too worried if there's still plenty of positive selection moves and team improvement still on the table developing in 4 weeks time!
Let them get a win over us I say, and they can sit back with confidence after "reassuring" Bomber after his recent little sermon re Saints are the yardstick
We all know what happened last year , and that will be still in the back of their minds, as I hope it's in ours!
Every little edge you can get is worth gold when the flag is at stake , and I'm adamant a "bit of a loss" against the Cats is worth more than a win at present!
Time is on our side as regards getting Max & Goose up to where we want them and further developing the much aligned "whipping boys"

And I don't think the pressure/ intensity has "dropped off" to the point where its not really there to be applied when necessary either !.

[Spinner]

It's about pin ups not the best players. Some posters would prefer to see their favourite player in the line up than a win. The fact that their favourite player is a liability rather than an asset is lost on them.

I have a simplistic motto, the team that is winning is the winning team. We invest the selection authority to those who are paid for the job, which is a bit ironic because almost us would do it free.

However, that's how it goes. They have picked a team and "viola", it's won ten straight. I'm not sure how anyone can argue with that, but they have - and in droves.

I get amazed at these posts.

Its like saying "dont talk about the weather cause you cant do anything about it....."....plenty still like to talk about the weather.....so what?

This is a footy site - full of passionate saints fans all with differing views right or wrong they are entitled to it.

We all know we dont control selection. We all know the club employs people to do this - so because of this....any discussion against club employee decisions is banned?

FWIW - I dont have pin up players - but I do believe this side, from what was fielded on the weekend, can be made stronger. I also believe it will need to get stronger againts a side that is one of the best of the last decade. Im also of the view we have dropped off the intensity/urgency we had at seasons start and our finishing skills have slipped with it.

Is this our lull? .....geez thatd be nice if it was....

That is a top post Teffers.

Im sick of posters talking football and typing their mind only to receive the 'we're won' line or the 'coaching staff know a lot more than you' line.

No s*** sherlock......Do posters on this forum really want 100% 'well done' threads, adding nothing, or do some want to attempt to go further and analyse the games and discuss their thoughts.

If people are not willing to think for themselves, and the ones that do get criticized rather than responded to because it isn't always fairlyland praise, then maybe the site should only permit threads discussing nicknames and banner sayings for the future.

[SainterK]

Perhaps an "in my opinion" wouldn't hurt occasionally, something about this thread title just annoys me...

[Milton66]

There's genuine analysis... then there's outright stupidity (IMO).

What get's up posters' noses is the outrageous ideas and more noticably the way they are expressed.

And I'm just as guilty as some.

Feel free to analyse the game / playersoaches etc. But do it in a civilised way without relying on nasty comments to make your point.

IMO, of course.

[SainterK]

There's genuine analysis... then there's outright stupidity (IMO).

What get's up posters' noses is the outrageous ideas and more noticably the way they are expressed.

And I'm just as guilty as some.

Feel free to analyse the game / playersoaches etc. But do it in a civilised way without relying on nasty comments to make your point.

IMO, of course.

[saint66au]

There's genuine analysis... then there's outright stupidity (IMO).

What get's up posters' noses is the outrageous ideas and more noticably the way they are expressed.

And I'm just as guilty as some.

Feel free to analyse the game / playersoaches etc. But do it in a civilised way without relying on nasty comments to make your point.

IMO, of course.

Erm..good luck with that

[Milton66]

There's genuine analysis... then there's outright stupidity (IMO).

What get's up posters' noses is the outrageous ideas and more noticably the way they are expressed.

And I'm just as guilty as some.

Feel free to analyse the game / playersoaches etc. But do it in a civilised way without relying on nasty comments to make your point.

IMO, of course.

Erm..good luck with that

Exactly!

Now you can simply question if unproven players might improve the team, or you can simply state that they will.

The former is "analysis", the latter is idiocy. Hence the ridicule directed at the OP.

[joffaboy]

Im sick of posters talking football and typing their mind only to receive the 'we're won' line or the 'coaching staff know a lot more than you' line.

We are 10-0. Not good enough hey?

No s*** sherlock......Do posters on this forum really want 100% 'well done' threads, adding nothing, or do some want to attempt to go further and analyse the games and discuss their thoughts.

Further analysis is fine - most are asking for a little bit of perspective thats all instead of the - "we need to drop half the team, otherwise we are doomed" threads and posts we get after every 6 goal win.

If people are not willing to think for themselves

To think for yourself you require all the relevant information. Are you saying you have all the relevenat information? Are you saying you know more or as much about the STKFC process as the coaching staff?

and the ones that do get criticized rather than responded to because it isn't always fairlyland praise, then maybe the site should only permit threads discussing nicknames and banner sayings for the future.

This doesn't really make sense however are you saying that all people ever give on this forum is praise?

As I said perspective would be nice. No matter how you try and spin the doom and gloom, we are currently 10-0 with a % of 183.

At the moment we are travelling better than every other team in the comp except Geelong, who, everyone, except Bomber Thompson, knows is the yardstick, and we still have a long way to go to match them.

Is this to do with your thread where you proffered your opinion as questions and then got all huffy when alternate views were put forward to your inferences?

if so, thats at tad precious isn't it?

Too bad you cant enjoy a 10-0 start to the season. I will as long as we keep winning. We will lose soon enough, possibly as soon as this weekend, and we will have plenty of time to be glum.

Will you be one of the posters here and will come on and be vindicated when we lose? I mean i am sure that many will surely paint out first loss to a combo of

a) Raph
b) Jimmy
c) Blake
d) Zac
e) any number of others
f) Lyon having the courage to drop players

etc.

I really hope not because that would mean your ego is more important to you than the success of the team.

Of course, conversely, we could drop Jimmy and Raph and Zac for Max and Goose and Armo and then lose.

If that is the case would I be justified in coming on here and feeling vindicated that dropping players cost us games? Same scenario. I hope I would be more upset about the loss than trying to score petty points on an internet forum.

Food for thought.

Cheers.

[Spinner]

Im sick of posters talking football and typing their mind only to receive the 'we're won' line or the 'coaching staff know a lot more than you' line.

We are 10-0. Not good enough hey?

No s*** sherlock......Do posters on this forum really want 100% 'well done' threads, adding nothing, or do some want to attempt to go further and analyse the games and discuss their thoughts.

Further analysis is fine - most are asking for a little bit of perspective thats all instead of the - "we need to drop half the team, otherwise we are doomed" threads and posts we get after every 6 goal win.

If people are not willing to think for themselves

To think for yourself you require all the relevant information. Are you saying you have all the relevenat information? Are you saying you know more or as much about the STKFC process as the coaching staff?

and the ones that do get criticized rather than responded to because it isn't always fairlyland praise, then maybe the site should only permit threads discussing nicknames and banner sayings for the future.

This doesn't really make sense however are you saying that all people ever give on this forum is praise?

As I said perspective would be nice. No matter how you try and spin the doom and gloom, we are currently 10-0 with a % of 183.

At the moment we are travelling better than every other team in the comp except Geelong, who, everyone, except Bomber Thompson, knows is the yardstick, and we still have a long way to go to match them.

Is this to do with your thread where you proffered your opinion as questions and then got all huffy when alternate views were put forward to your inferences?

if so, thats at tad precious isn't it?

Too bad you cant enjoy a 10-0 start to the season. I will as long as we keep winning. We will lose soon enough, possibly as soon as this weekend, and we will have plenty of time to be glum.

Will you be one of the posters here and will come on and be vindicated when we lose? I mean i am sure that many will surely paint out first loss to a combo of

a) Raph
b) Jimmy
c) Blake
d) Zac
e) any number of others
f) Lyon having the courage to drop players

etc.

I really hope not because that would mean your ego is more important to you than the success of the team.

Of course, conversely, we could drop Jimmy and Raph and Zac for Max and Goose and Armo and then lose.

If that is the case would I be justified in coming on here and feeling vindicated that dropping players cost us games? Same scenario. I hope I would be more upset about the loss than trying to score petty points on an internet forum.

Food for thought.

Cheers.

What I am saying is that there should be balance whether we win lose or draw.

Winning doesn't mean we are perfect.

Losing doesn't mean that is the end.

Not as long as your response but I think it is a clear one.



Also, I like the irony of the first line in your response, whether it was intended or not.

Secondly, I got huffy when I didn't get an alternative opinion when instead I got sucked into debating trivial differences...You'll notice I responded to yours and others posts (ones that offered an opinion) in a fair and reasonable manner.

[Ghost Like]

I agree with the essence of the OP in that there MAY be possible improvement to be gained by seeing whether the likes of McEvoy (tick), Max (tick), Goose, Armitage, Steven and Lynch can play within the current structure the Saints have settled on.

If they can't then at least we know. Better to try a few of these now (in the next 4 or 5 rounds) rather than cop a couple of injuries prior to the finals and have players who can't work within the structure and unbalance the side.

See Hawthorn and how they are struggling with players not used to their structure, team mates and game plan.

Hard decisions as all appear to be performing to the roles that's asked of them but I think it would be imperative to see how our 'depth' actually performs in the heat of battle.

[Milton66]

I agree with the essence of the OP in that there MAY be possible improvement to be gained by seeing whether the likes of McEvoy (tick), Max (tick), Goose, Armitage, Steven and Lynch can play within the current structure the Saints have settled on.

If they can't then at least we know. Better to try a few of these now (in the next 4 or 5 rounds) rather than cop a couple of injuries prior to the finals and have players who can't work within the structure and unbalance the side.

See Hawthorn and how they are struggling with players not used to their structure, team mates and game plan.

Hard decisions as all appear to be performing to the roles that's asked of them but I think it would be imperative to see how our 'depth' actually performs in the heat of battle.

This is where opinion is obviously divided.

I can see the logic, but I'd also assume that these players may not be doing enough to warrant selection.

I honestly believe that:

(a) some of the players put forward aren't ready for AFL footy just yet

(b) if we do have an injury or two, then the replacements will know what's required of them

(c) if you reward effort , and then drop someone because you need to "test" other players, then you send out the wrong message and cause disunity. Understand that every player busts their gut trying to play senior footy. Then onve thier effort is rewarded, you take it from them?

Last night, BJ mentioned that with a stable line up, you get a better understanding of other players and learn to trust each other more. If you make 2 changes every week, you simply unsettle this vital aspect.

Making wholesale changes to find any "X" factor is no different to making forced changes due to injury. It creates instability.

It is fairly obvious that their is a plan in place, and each player has a role to play within that plan. Until a lack of form warrants, or there is someone available that will enhance the plan, no changes are warranted IMO.

[borderbarry]

In my opinion, the most intrigueing selection decision this week will be who to replace Gardiner with? McEvoy, who has been tried twice with little reward, or Stanley, who was close to B.O.G. with the Zebras on Sunday.

[bergholt]

I mean i am sure that many will surely paint out first loss to a combo of

a) Raph
b) Jimmy
c) Blake
d) Zac
e) any number of others
f) Lyon having the courage to drop players

...

Of course, conversely, we could drop Jimmy and Raph and Zac for Max and Goose and Armo and then lose.

so what you're saying is that many will blame the players who are bad on the day for our first loss, if and when it happens.

you're also saying that it's possible that even making changes in our bottom six, we could still lose.

with all due respect - no s***, sherlock.

of course a loss will be due to players who are in the team. some of them won't play well and that will be the reason we lose. partly it will be because (for instance) hayes, montagna and riewoldt have down days. and partly it will be because the players who need to step up to take their spots don't or can't do that.

does anyone really think that when riewoldt has a bad game, his customary impact on the game can be adequately replaced by gwilt? of course not. whereas some would suggest that maguire has a better chance of doing that. this is the argument for replacing gwilt with maguire. simple.

[mordi]

People, people, can we play the ball not the man (or woman)

In the words of Oscar Wilde (or someone)

"One man's genuine analysis... is another man's outright stupidity"

btw...I've always assumed that forum postings are ALWAYS opinion ( unless linked to an independant source) ...IMO that is.

[Spinner]

People, people, can we play the ball not the man (or woman)

In the words of Oscar Wilde (or someone)

"One man's genuine analysis... is another man's outright stupidity"

btw...I've always assumed that forum postings are ALWAYS opinion ( unless linked to an independant source) ...IMO that is.

Apparently not.

[barks4eva]

Whether or not its Armo or someone else....I continue to HONESTLY ask myself - "will this st kilda side in its current format/form roll a Geelong....not only on rd 14...but when it counts in September?"

My honest answer is probably not.

Im not saying for 1 second that we cant do it - Hawthorn proved that - but to me when I look at a side like Geelong winning constantly for 3 years with depth down to at least player 30......and compare that with some of our depth....IMHO our weaknesses will be exposed.

No doubt Lyon has this side playing as a TRUE team and thats fantastic - problem is Geelong been playng as a team for 3 years now...thats not going to be our sole "x" factor....its going to come down to personell, belief and execution.

so how do we get stronger? even better???? (and weve been great dont get me wrong......but IMHO we need to rise again another level as opposition has been slowing catching...)

I believe Max, Milne will improve the line up no doubt.

It then comes down to - does an Armo give you more than Baker?
Max more than Blake? - and remember Blake gives a lot flexibility that Max may not...

Maguire to me is an unknown - again his form before he was injured sticks in my mind....can he re-invent himself as third fwd option BUT then does he have the speed/agility at ground level to maintain defensive fwd pressure so critical to our game plan? or will the ball hit the ground and they simply run off him?

Can Kosi turn it on against the best to give a double teamed Riewoldt a chop out?? - now there is an X factor.

Can Dal Santo break the perenial Cameorn Ling tag?..another X factor....

Will C Jones have the goods to at least quell Abletts influence?
And whose gonna stop their most damaging player at present in Johnson?........and dont forget Chapman....

Ironically,last time (before finals) we went ok in a half against Cats and it wasnt Ablett/Bartell that cut us up......it was Kelly, Chapman and Wojinksi...I remember being all over them in the first qtr and half only to be blown away in 10 mins of footy when they kicked 6.

Ia ctually think the midfield we go ok against them - I still given them the nod but ironically....I give our rucks the nod....pound for pound we compare ok:

Ablett - Dal Santo - Cats win
Bartel - Hayes - Draw on Hayes current form...maybe even slightly us....
Corey - Montagna - again pretty even on Monties form
Sellwood - Ball - IMHO very similar hard at it players....no clear winner IMO
Kelly - Goddard - probably give Goddard the nod for versatility...

Blake/Ottens/Mumford/ - Gardiner/King.....I actually reckon IF Ottens doesnt play we win easy here....could be a huge factor in this game.

as you can see Im confused.

Teflon this is why I regard you as one of the most, if not the most ( myself excluded of course ) footy savvy people on this site and not surprisingly I agree with all of your points, which is precisely why I started this thread.

We need to find another engine and for starters I would take a gamble on Armitage, at least give him a crack, number 9 draft selection taken just after Joel Selwood, hard in and under and I would back him against Baker to provide us with an extra impetus.

Baker overruns the football and has been making very dumb decisions, outmarked and beaten for hard balls, why should he automatically be selected based on his so called past reputation.

If not for Hudghton's injury, perhaps Dawson would still playing for Sandringham, with a conservative approach to steam selection leaving him languishing on the sidelines.
Zac has been absolutely brilliant, been given an opportunity and he has seized it.

At the end of the day maybe come September Baker is the better option, but now is the time to find out, at least give the kid a chance, a designated role, put him in and see what he delivers.

I cannot see Geelong losing two grand finals in a row unless we actually raise the bar from where we are currently and that means we need to mix it up, provide a few new opportunities and experiment a bit.

[barks4eva]

FINALLY someone posts an accurate assessment of both Raph and Gwilt's game on Saturday night! I just returned from seeing this game on GC and honestly both of their efforts were woeful.

Gwilt's 2 shots at goal may save him from being dropped but he does not deserve to be in the side. He is being carried and lacks the intensity and pressure to be in our side. Watching him on Saturday, what I saw he lacked most was any desire to lay a tackle or put on any kind of pressure. When a player near him got the ball, he would stand back and let players like Ball, Hayes etc do the work...it absolutely astounded me that a Coach so intent on toughness and hardness would leave a player like that on the field let alone in the best 22! I'm not going to lie, I have never been Gwilt's biggest fan and week by week he seems to be further proving he is not up to AFL level and needs a spell in the VFL.

There is no danger whatsoever of Gwilt ever smothering a ball off the boot, he hangs back, makes a half arsed attempt to close ground and then just waves out a couple of hands as if it complies with some effort to smother the ball AND he has been doing this since round ONE!

Gwilt lacks intensity and I am surprised that his defensive efforts have not resulted in him being dropped 6 weeks ago!

I had a friend sit with me for the first time against Brisbane and before the game we discussed various players and he was most surprised when I mentioned Gwilt as being someone who should be dropped, he liked Gwilt and couldn't believe what I had said about him,

then he watched him more closely and was very surprised at his half arsed chasing, his clayton's attempt's at smothers and generally his lack of intensity and defensive efforts,

this is a pattern and it's been happening all year!

[DWOODROW]

I agree barks. I reckon Dave is champing at the bit and given the opportunity would take it with both hands. He has had enough time to see what is required from him and the team and not giving the required effort will see you on the sidelines. At the end of the day though I guess he will get his time. Before people say he had a crap game on the weekend, he was taken to the Gold Coast as an emergency with Gram and when not picked in the Line up for Melbourne was flown back to Melbourne to play for Sandy at midnight . Lack of sleep is not good preparation for a game.

[markp]

I cannot see Geelong losing two grand finals in a row

I can, if the team playing them (whoever!) stays with them or gets their noses in front, just like the whale in Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy they'll think "oh no, not again", Ablett will start to cry and they'll choke on a fur-ball of fear.

And besides, I had a vision years ago of Blake kicking the winning goal in an GF after the siren.... so the kid is integral.

[joffaboy]

so what you're saying is that many will blame the players who are bad on the day for our first loss, if and when it happens.

So you are assuming the players mentioned will be bad on the day.

you're also saying that it's possible that even making changes in our bottom six, we could still lose.

I see you cant understand plain English but you intrepret my post to suit your answer.

No. I stated that both scenarios were possible and that some posters on here would rather come on and point score to validate their ego, more than bemoan we lost.

with all due respect - no s***, sherlock.

With all due respect, attempt to take the post in context and not some simple black or white scenerio.

It the above is with no respect so dont pretend otherwise.

of course a loss will be due to players who are in the team.

the list I posted are the forum scapegoats. if that trifling fact escapes your trap like consciousness, well I am sorry.

some of them won't play well and that will be the reason we lose.

Even if this statement is true, what does it have to do with what I have posted. Your assumptions are laughably incorrect.

partly it will be because (for instance) hayes, montagna and riewoldt have down days. and partly it will be because the players who need to step up to take their spots don't or can't do that.

I'm not talking about the stars. If you could actually read you would see I stated players like gwilt, Blake, raph, Zac etc, players who some posters have all demanded that they be dropped - some demanding four changes to a winning team.

regardless of how these scapegoats play, there will be the same motely crew demanding their sacking.

does anyone really think that when riewoldt has a bad game, his customary impact on the game can be adequately replaced by gwilt? of course not.

really your grasp of the thread and my post is nigh on non existent. Its not Roo being scrutinised for Gwilt - it would be Gwilt for ANYONE regardless of how he played.

If you dont understand that - well just continue on with your completely wrong assumptions.

whereas some would suggest that maguire has a better chance of doing that. this is the argument for replacing gwilt with maguire. simple.

The only simple thing in your post is your argument. Nothing is simple.

My post was directly about the scapegoating of players (the ones I have mentioned). You assume you can, in a very simplistic black and white way, using totally incorrect assumptions understand what i was posting.

And even your simple argument falls down. There has been an ongoing argument about sacking Gwilt EVEN THOUGH THE TEAM IS WINNING.

Your silly argument actually backs up what I posted about some members here. Regardless of what the scapegoats do on the field, there will be posters here demanding their sacking.

Now lets just take your, as you call it simple proposition. On Thursday we sack Jimmy for Maguire. Goose has a shocker and we lose because of errors he has made. Would the ommission of Gwilt and the elevation of Goose been justified? Would it have been a good thing to change a winning team because of a "chance" that Maguire would be better than Gwilt (who has been part of the 10-0 winning team all year)?

have you got an inkling now???

Sheesh!!!!!

[barks4eva]

...this idea of making 5 changes after winning 10 is plainly stupid...

I agree.

second that

Gardiner out suspended

Hudghton for R. Clarke
Maguire for Gwilt

Milne in, if he's ready


That's four changes without even blinking or perhaps you all prefer Hudghton and Maguire to play out the rest of the year for Sandringham!

10-0 is a fools paradise if we rest on our laurels and rely on the herculean efforts of some to continue to carry others.


I'd add in

Armitage for Baker

[barks4eva]

Whether or not its Armo or someone else....I continue to HONESTLY ask myself - "will this st kilda side in its current format/form roll a Geelong....not only on rd 14...but when it counts in September?"

My honest answer is probably not.

Im not saying for 1 second that we cant do it - Hawthorn proved that - but to me when I look at a side like Geelong winning constantly for 3 years with depth down to at least player 30......and compare that with some of our depth....IMHO our weaknesses will be exposed.

No doubt Lyon has this side playing as a TRUE team and thats fantastic - problem is Geelong been playng as a team for 3 years now...thats not going to be our sole "x" factor....its going to come down to personell, belief and execution.

so how do we get stronger? even better???? (and weve been great dont get me wrong......but IMHO we need to rise again another level as opposition has been slowing catching...)

I believe Max, Milne will improve the line up no doubt.

It then comes down to - does an Armo give you more than Baker?
Max more than Blake? - and remember Blake gives a lot flexibility that Max may not...

Maguire to me is an unknown - again his form before he was injured sticks in my mind....can he re-invent himself as third fwd option BUT then does he have the speed/agility at ground level to maintain defensive fwd pressure so critical to our game plan? or will the ball hit the ground and they simply run off him?

Can Kosi turn it on against the best to give a double teamed Riewoldt a chop out?? - now there is an X factor.

Can Dal Santo break the perenial Cameorn Ling tag?..another X factor....

Will C Jones have the goods to at least quell Abletts influence?
And whose gonna stop their most damaging player at present in Johnson?........and dont forget Chapman....

Ironically,last time (before finals) we went ok in a half against Cats and it wasnt Ablett/Bartell that cut us up......it was Kelly, Chapman and Wojinksi...I remember being all over them in the first qtr and half only to be blown away in 10 mins of footy when they kicked 6.

Ia ctually think the midfield we go ok against them - I still given them the nod but ironically....I give our rucks the nod....pound for pound we compare ok:

Ablett - Dal Santo - Cats win
Bartel - Hayes - Draw on Hayes current form...maybe even slightly us....
Corey - Montagna - again pretty even on Monties form
Sellwood - Ball - IMHO very similar hard at it players....no clear winner IMO
Kelly - Goddard - probably give Goddard the nod for versatility...

Blake/Ottens/Mumford/ - Gardiner/King.....I actually reckon IF Ottens doesnt play we win easy here....could be a huge factor in this game.

as you can see Im confused.

Teflon this is why I regard you as one of the most, if not the most ( myself excluded of course ) footy savvy people on this site and not surprisingly I agree with all of your points, which is precisely why I started this thread.

We need to find another engine and for starters I would take a gamble on Armitage, at least give him a crack, number 9 draft selection taken just after Joel Selwood, hard in and under and I would back him against Baker to provide us with an extra impetus.

Baker overruns the football and has been making very dumb decisions, outmarked and beaten for hard balls, why should he automatically be selected based on his so called past reputation.

If not for Hudghton's injury, perhaps Dawson would still playing for Sandringham, with a conservative approach to steam selection leaving him languishing on the sidelines.
Zac has been absolutely brilliant, been given an opportunity and he has seized it.

At the end of the day maybe come September Baker is the better option, but now is the time to find out, at least give the kid a chance, a designated role, put him in and see what he delivers.

I cannot see Geelong losing two grand finals in a row unless we actually raise the bar from where we are currently and that means we need to mix it up, provide a few new opportunities and experiment a bit.