Too many weak links and passengers

barks4eva · Post: # 749585Post **barks4eva** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 1:30pm

Bernard Shakey wrote:Armo? Have you seen him this year barks4ever?

He is miles away from a senior game. Gave away a handful of completely undisciplined frees today.

No I have not seen Armitage, but have read a few reports that he has been going ok, without dominating, but my point is this,

Sometimes a player spends too long languishing in the VFL eg: Ferguson without getting an opportunity and they just freefall into oblivion,

I've seen players play like duds in the VFL and then get a game at AFL level even though their VFL form might not have warranted selection and suddenly they rise to the occasion and play at a whole new level because they are playing at a whole new level, > AFL!

We invested pick 9 in the national draft on Armitage and from the small amount of game time he's had, I reckon he goes alright,

personally I'd drop Baker, who is fast becoming a liability at worst or at best he's not on his game, give Armitage a go and see if he can take his opportunity, playing the same role that Baker plays,

might be a gamble but IMHO it's worth it, back him, give him the opportunity and show some confidence in him and see what he delivers,

Armitage is no slower than Baker, but has youth on his side and a fair degree of talent.

Milton66 · Post: # 749593Post **Milton66** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 1:44pm

All good in theory. The unkown question remains is if Armo is doing what is asked of him at Sandy? Perhaps there are a few ahead of him in line?

The last thing we need is to reward mediocrity based on some fancy romantic notion of providing "X" factor.

One would think that Joey's progress, Farren Ray, And Dawson have provided sufficient X factor already... not to mention the increase in our intensity.

claystreet · Post: # 749607Post **claystreet** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 2:27pm

Cant see Armoo getting a game is doing nothing in the Magoos to warrant it.

suss · Post: # 749610Post **suss** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 2:46pm

Barks, the return of Baker ha arguably been one of the key reasons we've improved this season. His got 190 games of experience and adds hardness to the team. Yes, he played a howler against the Brions but really I think you're bashing him because a contested mark was taken against him by a kid. He'll bounce back. Ross knows this and it will take a lot more for Armo to get a game at his expense.

Got to disagree on Gwilt and Raph too. Again I think Raph made one really poor mistake (the handball from Lenny that led to Bates' goal?) but overall his defensive work was good and his contribution important.

Gwilt again straightens up the team when we're moving forward - I think Ross is after a bloke who presents at CHF and gives an option is the ball is too far away from Reiwoldt or Kosi - he does this. Also, when the ball hits the deck his defensive work is good. Unless Goose gets injection of speed he won't be replacing Gwilty.

Blake admittedly had a shocker. If anything I'd say he may be at risk. But again Ross will be looking at his defensive pressure not the number of disposals/marks etc. Did he have a role? Did he fulfil it? There the question Ross will ask.

I just can't see how replacing 20% of a team with 10 wins from 10 games makes sense.

Teflon · Post: # 749613Post **Teflon** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 2:47pm

Whether or not its Armo or someone else....I continue to HONESTLY ask myself - "will this st kilda side in its current format/form roll a Geelong....not only on rd 14...but when it counts in September?"

My honest answer is probably not.

Im not saying for 1 second that we cant do it - Hawthorn proved that - but to me when I look at a side like Geelong winning constantly for 3 years with depth down to at least player 30......and compare that with some of our depth....IMHO our weaknesses will be exposed.

No doubt Lyon has this side playing as a TRUE team and thats fantastic - problem is Geelong been playng as a team for 3 years now...thats not going to be our sole "x" factor....its going to come down to personell, belief and execution.

so how do we get stronger? even better???? (and weve been great dont get me wrong......but IMHO we need to rise again another level as opposition has been slowing catching...)

I believe Max, Milne will improve the line up no doubt.

It then comes down to - does an Armo give you more than Baker?
Max more than Blake? - and remember Blake gives a lot flexibility that Max may not...

Maguire to me is an unknown - again his form before he was injured sticks in my mind....can he re-invent himself as third fwd option BUT then does he have the speed/agility at ground level to maintain defensive fwd pressure so critical to our game plan? or will the ball hit the ground and they simply run off him?

Can Kosi turn it on against the best to give a double teamed Riewoldt a chop out?? - now there is an X factor.

Can Dal Santo break the perenial Cameorn Ling tag?..another X factor....

Will C Jones have the goods to at least quell Abletts influence?
And whose gonna stop their most damaging player at present in Johnson?........and dont forget Chapman....

Ironically,last time (before finals) we went ok in a half against Cats and it wasnt Ablett/Bartell that cut us up......it was Kelly, Chapman and Wojinksi...I remember being all over them in the first qtr and half only to be blown away in 10 mins of footy when they kicked 6.

Ia ctually think the midfield we go ok against them - I still given them the nod but ironically....I give our rucks the nod....pound for pound we compare ok:

Ablett - Dal Santo - Cats win
Bartel - Hayes - Draw on Hayes current form...maybe even slightly us....
Corey - Montagna - again pretty even on Monties form
Sellwood - Ball - IMHO very similar hard at it players....no clear winner IMO
Kelly - Goddard - probably give Goddard the nod for versatility...

Blake/Ottens/Mumford/ - Gardiner/King.....I actually reckon IF Ottens doesnt play we win easy here....could be a huge factor in this game.

as you can see Im confused.

aussiejones · Mon 01 Jun 2009 3:23pm

Cannot Argue with Teflon's summation .....

need to tweak the side and get it on song.

Of course improved accuracy would turn them into heros !!!!!
but underlying problems remain

widereceiver · Mon 01 Jun 2009 3:35pm

Teflon wrote:
Ironically,last time (before finals) we went ok in a half against Cats and it wasnt Ablett/Bartell that cut us up......it was Kelly, Chapman and Wojinksi...I remember being all over them in the first qtr and half only to be blown away in 10 mins of footy when they kicked 6.

a very fair summation, except last time we kicked 4.7 before they got rolling. If we'd kicked 7.4 it might have been a different picture, IF being the operative word. We seem to struggle for consistency with accuracy.

The rest of the post is a very balanced view and I share your confusion. Obviously others do too, whether or not they'll admit it.

Milton66 · Post: # 749631Post **Milton66** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 3:53pm

Not worth getting confused about, people. We'll find out in due course.

I hope the players aren't as Geelong-centric as we are.

The discussion is purely subjective. The maligned player may have in fact improved, yet due to the improvement of others, they still look like weak links.

Whilst they may still be "bottom 6", perhaps our bottom six have improved from last year collectively?

Until we play the CAts, we won't know for sure.

Either way, I'm confident that Lyon isn't resting on his laurels, and changes will be made if and when required.

bigred · Post: # 749641Post **bigred** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 4:23pm

I reckon we have taken the foot off over the last month or so.

It is undeniable that the intensity is down on the first two months of the year.

To be honest, I wouldnt be surprised to see us drop a game in the next month, and not just against Geelong either. Almost any side could knock us off. to be honest, its probably what we need.

There are a couple of passengers being exposed at the moment. It may be time to make a couple of subtle changes over the next couple of weeks.

The whole "geelong focus" is just such a fkn stupid thing to do. Lets be serious, on current form I would be thinking they would give us a nice little touch up.

You cant get away with kicking one goal six behinds like against Melbourne in a quarter. Or two goals seven behinds like against Brisbane....Geelong, or other decent sides will absolutely punish you.

Solar · Post: # 749643Post **Solar** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 4:28pm

tef agree with most of what you say but ball v sellwood is a no contest, I would actually think about who of ablett or selwood to hard tag currently.

Thinline · Post: # 749645Post **Thinline** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 4:31pm

Am hearing you bigred but would be amazed if players and coaching staff are worried beyond North Melbourne to be honest...

Yes, we have been a little flat. North, who absolutely must win and are a proud and tough club and will throw up a stern test. They'll beat us if we are off our game a smidge. We need something that requires something near four quarters of effort and precision.

I reckon you'll see Milne, McEvoy and Maguire/Max in this week (Milne will walk back, McEvoy if/when Gardi gets a week and the other to cover Gilbo's ankle and/or take Raph's spot?). A few changes often rejuvenates things.

I'm tipping a pretty solid effort this week.

Hope so, anyway.

Milton66 · Post: # 749664Post **Milton66** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 5:26pm

bigred wrote:I reckon we have taken the foot off over the last month or so.

It is undeniable that the intensity is down on the first two months of the year.

To be honest, I wouldnt be surprised to see us drop a game in the next month, and not just against Geelong either. Almost any side could knock us off. to be honest, its probably what we need.

There are a couple of passengers being exposed at the moment. It may be time to make a couple of subtle changes over the next couple of weeks.

The whole "geelong focus" is just such a fkn stupid thing to do. Lets be serious, on current form I would be thinking they would give us a nice little touch up.

You cant get away with kicking one goal six behinds like against Melbourne in a quarter. Or two goals seven behinds like against Brisbane....Geelong, or other decent sides will absolutely punish you.

Don't like the term "passangers". We're 10-0. Passengers are players who are lazy IMO. I reckon the effort has been there from everyone. It's just that some players are less skilled than others.

Passengers is a bit harsh.

And who says we have to lose? Funny how just because we haven't smahsed teams the last 3 weeks....

plugger66 · Post: # 749838Post **plugger66** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 8:41pm

Just home from the Gold Coast but this is a thread written by a moron. 5 changes after winning 10 in a row. Bringing in players that were involved in 10 losses last year. Yep makes sense. Just do it.

Skinny · Post: # 749848Post **Skinny** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 9:05pm

What an important Saints supporter you are Plugger...just home from the Gold Coast...obviously that gives you the right to call a fellow supporter a moron for having a point of view!

plugger66 · Post: # 749850Post **plugger66** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 9:09pm

Skinny wrote:What an important Saints supporter you are Plugger...just home from the Gold Coast...obviously that gives you the right to call a fellow supporter a moron for having a point of view!

Sorry not important at all but just saying why I hadnt commented on this thread previously. Yes I shouldnt have called him a moron, but the thread is moronic. everyone can have an opinion but this idea of making 5 changes after winning 10 is plainly stupid.

Apart from having a go at me do you think we should have 5 changes this week.

Leo.J · Post: # 749851Post **Leo.J** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 9:16pm

plugger66 wrote:...this idea of making 5 changes after winning 10 is plainly stupid...

I agree.

Skinny · Post: # 749852Post **Skinny** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 9:20pm

I have no idea..it's probably time to make some adjustments....but I am only a supporter with an opinion, no inside knowledge just an opinion...which all of us should be able to express without personal abuse.

plugger66 · Post: # 749855Post **plugger66** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 9:25pm

Skinny wrote:I have no idea..it's probably time to make some adjustments....but I am only a supporter with an opinion, no inside knowledge just an opinion...which all of us should be able to express without personal abuse.

Thats fine. Being sacastic and calling me an important supporter is obviously ok with you.

How about giving us an idea who you would drop.

Skinny · Post: # 749857Post **Skinny** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 9:35pm

Is sacastic anything like sarcastic?
An important supporter (it is ok with me) like you should be able to enlighten the moronic masses with your wisdom and save the rest of us posting our opinions.

plugger66 · Post: # 749858Post **plugger66** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 9:40pm

Skinny wrote:Is sacastic anything like sarcastic?
An important supporter (it is ok with me) like you should be able to enlighten the moronic masses with your wisdom and save the rest of us posting our opinions.

A spelling error now. Moronic masses. You sound like fun. How about giving us some knowledge of your footy.

perfectionist · Mon 01 Jun 2009 9:40pm

It's about pin ups not the best players. Some posters would prefer to see their favourite player in the line up than a win. The fact that their favourite player is a liability rather than an asset is lost on them.

I have a simplistic motto, the team that is winning is the winning team. We invest the selection authority to those who are paid for the job, which is a bit ironic because almost us would do it free.

However, that's how it goes. They have picked a team and "viola", it's won ten straight. I'm not sure how anyone can argue with that, but they have - and in droves.

4ever_saint · Mon 01 Jun 2009 9:47pm

FINALLY someone posts an accurate assessment of both Raph and Gwilt's game on Saturday night! I just returned from seeing this game on GC and honestly both of their efforts were woeful.

Gwilt's 2 shots at goal may save him from being dropped but he does not deserve to be in the side. He is being carried and lacks the intensity and pressure to be in our side. Watching him on Saturday, what I saw he lacked most was any desire to lay a tackle or put on any kind of pressure. When a player near him got the ball, he would stand back and let players like Ball, Hayes etc do the work...it absolutely astounded me that a Coach so intent on toughness and hardness would leave a player like that on the field let alone in the best 22! I'm not going to lie, I have never been Gwilt's biggest fan and week by week he seems to be further proving he is not up to AFL level and needs a spell in the VFL.

He was also directly responsible for a Melbourne goal in a crucial time due to his complete lack of intensity and focus. He dropped an easy mark which was scooped up by a Melb player- his second attempt at the ball resulted in a failed attempt at a tackle and then subsequently a goal for the opposition.

Raph was being played in an awkward position that meant whenever he made a mistake it resulted in a moment of momentum for Melbourne. His mistakes throughout the night resulted in around 2 goals and his poor effort around the ground was not unnoticed by Ross Lyon (spending a large amount of time on the bench).

I will be absolutely shocked if both of these players are in the team next week. I am hoping that at least one is gone because they are the weak links in our side atm and there are better options in the VFL for us atm.

The Craw · Post: # 749861Post **The Craw** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 9:49pm

Leo.J wrote:
plugger66 wrote:...this idea of making 5 changes after winning 10 is plainly stupid...
I agree.

second that

Milton66 · Post: # 749865Post **Milton66** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 9:52pm

perfectionist wrote:It's about pin ups not the best players. Some posters would prefer to see their favourite player in the line up than a win. The fact that their favourite player is a liability rather than an asset is lost on them.

I have a simplistic motto, the team that is winning is the winning team. We invest the selection authority to those who are paid for the job, which is a bit ironic because almost us would do it free.

However, that's how it goes. They have picked a team and "viola", it's won ten straight. I'm not sure how anyone can argue with that, but they have - and in droves.

hammer-nail-head.

I think it's also a case of people living out their "If I was the coach" fantasy on a forum.

SainterK · Post: # 749914Post **SainterK** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 10:59pm

perfectionist wrote:It's about pin ups not the best players. Some posters would prefer to see their favourite player in the line up than a win. The fact that their favourite player is a liability rather than an asset is lost on them.

I have a simplistic motto, the team that is winning is the winning team. We invest the selection authority to those who are paid for the job, which is a bit ironic because almost us would do it free.

However, that's how it goes. They have picked a team and "viola", it's won ten straight. I'm not sure how anyone can argue with that, but they have - and in droves.

Great post, you are able to take the emotion out and look at fact...