Gwilt????

[bobmurray]

I'm sure the opposition prefer Gwilt in the team and on the park for the full 120 minutes.....

[Milton66]

The role Gwilt is being asked to play is quite different - much more mobile than a leading/propping key forward.

agreed. and i don't think goose can play that role.

but neither can gwilt.

after round 9, here are his averages:

13.8 disposals, 3.6 marks, 0.3 goals, 0.6 behinds, 2.8 tackles, 0.7 goal assists, 2.2 inside 50s

this means that he's ranked, in the team:

18th for disposals
20th for marks
15th for goals
12th for tackles
11th for inside 50s
7th for goal assists
14th for goals contributed (goals + assists)

seventh for goal assists is ok. the rest are pretty poor. the worst is that he's playing permanent forward and is fourteenth in goals contributed.

you might be able to make a case for him in any individual game, by saying he did a couple of good things. but these good things have to add up to whole good games at some point. he's not having whole good games.

sorry jimmy, but you're just not there right now.

OK, so based on your argument here, who comes in for Gwilt?

Surely, you only elevate a player if they'll improve the team?

On a different topic, it's ultimately up to the coach to decide if Jimmy is good enough to keep his spot.

He'll be judged according to what hte coach wants him to do, and not based on what supporters THINK he should do.

Anyone would think we lost by 15 goals the way people are carrying on.

[bergholt]

OK, so based on your argument here, who comes in for Gwilt?

Surely, you only elevate a player if they'll improve the team?

actually, my argument there said that gwilt wasn't playing well enough to stay in the side, and didn't consider who might replace him. but i'll do that now.

the role we're talking about is that of goal-kicking medium forward, like s johnson or lecras or murphy or o'keefe. we probably don't have one of these players - lynch and allen are the closest but definitely aren't there yet. maybe simpkin or cahill, though i don't know what they do at all.

so i think we should forget about that role at all, and bring in true midfielder to shore up the midfield further. we're not getting anything from the medium size forward as it is, so let's stop wasting a spot and bring in another midfielder to help in rotations.

armitage and eddy can both kick goals and play in the middle. neither would be less productive than gwilt. bring in one of them for him.

On a different topic, it's ultimately up to the coach to decide if Jimmy is good enough to keep his spot.

He'll be judged according to what hte coach wants him to do, and not based on what supporters THINK he should do.

really? you're kidding. the coach is actually the one who coaches the team?

most people think it's implicit that commenting on a supporter forum doesn't actually affect team selection, but you feel you have to come out and say it. how immensely useful of you.

[vacuous space]

I wouldn't be against bringing in Armo, Eddy or even Lynch for Gwilt. I don't think Gwilt is working as a decoy. He hasn't drawn a key defender since the Bulldogs game. In that situation, I'd prefer to have a genuine ground level player or a genuine marking target. Gwilt seems to be caught a little bit in between right now.

[Milton66]

OK, so based on your argument here, who comes in for Gwilt?

Surely, you only elevate a player if they'll improve the team?

actually, my argument there said that gwilt wasn't playing well enough to stay in the side, and didn't consider who might replace him. but i'll do that now.

the role we're talking about is that of goal-kicking medium forward, like s johnson or lecras or murphy or o'keefe. we probably don't have one of these players - lynch and allen are the closest but definitely aren't there yet. maybe simpkin or cahill, though i don't know what they do at all.

so i think we should forget about that role at all, and bring in true midfielder to shore up the midfield further. we're not getting anything from the medium size forward as it is, so let's stop wasting a spot and bring in another midfielder to help in rotations.

armitage and eddy can both kick goals and play in the middle. neither would be less productive than gwilt. bring in one of them for him.

On a different topic, it's ultimately up to the coach to decide if Jimmy is good enough to keep his spot.

He'll be judged according to what hte coach wants him to do, and not based on what supporters THINK he should do.

really? you're kidding. the coach is actually the one who coaches the team?

most people think it's implicit that commenting on a supporter forum doesn't actually affect team selection, but you feel you have to come out and say it. how immensely useful of you.

I'll disagree with that.

what you're proposing is to change a successful forward structure by forgetting the 3rd med fwd position and bringing in another midfield.

How many goals has Eddy kicked?

The final comments weren't directed at you, so loosen up and cut the sarcasm.

[Duggie]

For goodness sake, can we have a break?
I tipped there would be another move to get rid of Gwilt in favour of Goose. It must be his physical appearance that some of you do not like.
On yesterday's showing he would have to take others with him.
The needle is worn out.
Opposition teams are working out a way to unsettle us. The Cats almost came unstuck for the same reason.

[bergholt]

so i think we should forget about that role at all, and bring in true midfielder to shore up the midfield further. we're not getting anything from the medium size forward as it is, so let's stop wasting a spot and bring in another midfielder to help in rotations.

armitage and eddy can both kick goals and play in the middle. neither would be less productive than gwilt. bring in one of them for him.

I'll disagree with that.

what you're proposing is to change a successful forward structure by forgetting the 3rd med fwd position and bringing in another midfield.

How many goals has Eddy kicked?

one in two games this year, three in thirteen last year, but it's not just about goals. i'm saying we bring in another midfielder - who can kick goals - to replace an unproductive forward.

eddy's played two games this season, after thirteen last. averages:

2008: 11.8 disposals, 4.1 marks, 0.2 goals, 3.8 tackles, 0.1 goal assists
2009: 19.0 disposals, 6.0 marks, 0.5 goals, 2.5 tackles, 1.5 goal assists

armo, for further comparison:

2007: 6.7 disposals, 2.3 marks, 0 goals, 2.3 tackles, 0.3 goal assists
2008: 10.2 disposals, 3.0 marks, 0.8 goals, 3.3 tackles, 0.2 goal assists

they're different players to gwilt, playing in different positions, but that's my point. they can contribute more to the team than he has been.

the only argument for him is the structure argument, as you mentioned. the forward line looks ok with gwilt as third forward, but mainly because all inside 50s go towards one of the two talls. it's bad when this structure changes, for instance in the freo game, where kosi was injured early; and in the bulldogs game, where king was injured and kosi was in the ruck. in both cases the forward line looked too riewoldt-centric. and gwilt, as second forward in those games had a combined tally of 22 touches, 5 marks, 2 goals, 2 goal assists, 5 inside 50s, 7 tackles.

gwilt gets all his possessions outside 50 when kosi and roo are in there. he's not great at demanding the ball on the lead inside 50, and he's not a great crumber. (as witness yesterday when he missed a fairly tough snap.) getting possessions outside 50, and averaging 3.6 marks a game, he could easily be replaced by a smaller, more mobile, better tackling midfielder - armo or eddy.

[bergholt]

I tipped there would be another move to get rid of Gwilt in favour of Goose. It must be his physical appearance that some of you do not like.
On yesterday's showing he would have to take others with him.

you tipped there'd be a move to get rid of him because you know he was poor. yes, other players were also poor. does that mean none of them should be dropped?

[InkerSaint]

I am and always have been a big fan/supporter/defender of Jimmy but sadly even I think that his time has run out.

Sorry Duggie, but I have to agree with this. If you tipped correctly it's not for the reasons you claim.

I watched a play right in front of the MW where Gwilt received the ball, ran forward into the opposition, looked for a way out, and passed it back to teammates who were already manned up. Guess what happened... stoppage. It was clear as day that if he didn't assess his options early he would run into trouble.

I'm all for developing the group, and I've seen fits and bursts of good play from Gwilt but these kind of events are becoming the broken record.

It almost appeared to me as if the team had been instructed to use Gwilt as an option more often to include him in the plays. Unfortunately yesterday it ended in carnage almost every time.

Of course that's only half the game. He did lay a great tackle when his opponent ducked, he simply pinned him from upside down without getting pinged for head contact.

Maybe that's his value to the team. I wish to hell I knew. He sure is frustrating to watch.

[St. Luke]

He still has my vote! Strong imposing player and getting better all the time!

Good on you Jimmy!!

[saintsRrising]

I would not mind trying Armo as a HF...for he has a knack of kicking goals.

He is smaller than Gwilt.

But so far Gwilt has by and large not shown the the knack of kicking goals.

[evertonfc]

First seven games were excellent. Did his job, had a role.

Last two games have been poor. Needs to return to earlier form to justify his spot, but may be running out of time.

Hasn't been effective enough as a third forward in recent weeks.

However, hard to make unforced changes to a 9-0 side.

My thoughts exactly. I'm a sceptic but I reckon his raking left foot can get the ball quickly into our attack, which often puts defences on the back foot.

But he needs to have that intensity which he showed from Rounds 2-7.

I don't think there's much harm in swapping him for Lynch, or even trying out Maguire. It would send a message that we are willing to reward players who've earned their spot.

[python]

i thought he was a bit slow with the ball today, and made some wrong decisions with it, but i wouldnt drop him, hes been pretty valuable this year.

The amount of hate he gets is ridiculous. Even at the ground, i think it was in the second quarter, he went up for a mark, got shoved in the back, and therefore dropped it. He got the free kick, but all i could hear around me were comments like 'bloody hell gwilt take a mark for once' 'ur s*** gwilt' etc etc. Hes not in the team to kick bags, hes in the team to do what hes been doing, and apart from yesterday, he has been doing it well.

[bergholt]

My thoughts exactly. I'm a sceptic but I reckon his raking left foot can get the ball quickly into our attack, which often puts defences on the back foot.

it may be raking, but he's actually only kicking it about seven times a game.

[bigcarl]

I would not mind trying Armo as a HF...for he has a knack of kicking goals. He is smaller than Gwilt. But so far Gwilt has by and large not shown the the knack of kicking goals.

armo would come in for schneider or milne or a mid, wouldn't he?

imo gwilt's role belongs to someone who can be a marking target if necessary ... raph, lynch, maguire (perhaps).

[meher baba]

If Gwilt is dropped for, say, Max, it won't be the end of the world for him.

He still has an almost unique set of skills - big, strong, deceptively quick (but not especially agile), medium-sized player with tremendous foot skills (except yesterday for some reason) which will almost certainly see him get back to our top 22 again this season.

At his best, he is worth a spot ahead of Armo, Eddy, Lynch , Steven or whoever else you wish to name at this stage: a medium-sized forward is worth more to the team in its current structure than yet another midfield runner or run with player. And Goose, although a more accomplished player, could not IMO effectively play third marking forward with Roo and Kosi.

I don't mind a discussion in which we talk about the idea of a difficult decision to leave Gwilt out so that Raph can stay in and/or Max or Gram can come back.

I do object to posters, including the guy who started this thread, posting things like "Gwilt is s@#t". Is that sort of comment really necessary in relation to any of our players, especially one who happens to have dark skin?

[spert]

Maybe we should look at Ball's progress..is he contributing enough..his foot skills are terrible.

[Milton66]

First seven games were excellent. Did his job, had a role.

Last two games have been poor. Needs to return to earlier form to justify his spot, but may be running out of time.

Hasn't been effective enough as a third forward in recent weeks.

However, hard to make unforced changes to a 9-0 side.

My thoughts exactly. I'm a sceptic but I reckon his raking left foot can get the ball quickly into our attack, which often puts defences on the back foot.

But he needs to have that intensity which he showed from Rounds 2-7.

I don't think there's much harm in swapping him for Lynch, or even trying out Maguire. It would send a message that we are willing to reward players who've earned their spot.

Not having a go at you. But what has Lynch done to deserve selection? Even Goose had 2 good games, but that's VFL.

And to the posters who suggest that this week would be a good time to blood players because it's Melbourne... well I'd can't really comment for fear of being banned.

[joffaboy]

Has played in a team who has 9 wins and a % or 183 out of nine played.

Well done Jimmy. Getting better all the time.

that's a ridiculous argument, joffaboy.

you're saying that the way we played yesterday was as good as we could possibly play and so no improvement is possible. is that right?

The OP was Gwilt - comments.

That was a comment on Gwilt nothing more or less.

It had nothing to do with our form or yesterday or this year or the anything else your fertile imagination may assume.

If you want my thoughts on if Gwilt should or not be in the team for next week please open and read the appropriate thread.

[SainterK]

I personally think we have upset the balance slightly with the tiniest of little tweaks here and there already....just my opinion though.

[InkerSaint]

Maybe we should look at Ball's progress..is he contributing enough..his foot skills are terrible.

Ball's decision making yesterday was for the most part far superior to Gwilt's. But it's not a fair comparison.

It's easy to forget he's still young - he's Gilbert's age (8 days' difference) and a bit of a late starter. I seem to remember Gilbert even at this time last year was very hit-and-miss. Even still, Gwilt seems like a high-risk prospect... the fact that there is no real replacement for his skill set buys him some time (I hope) to improve (I hope).

[Devilhead]

It has been mentioned that Gwilt is "unproductive as a forward"

If that is the case and we bring in another forward that is "more productive" (ie: more possessions) wouldn't that mean that another forward would become less productive because Gwilt's replacement would be getting more of the ball.

It really is a shite argument about Gwilt being "unproductive"

Not every forward in the team can get 20+ possessions and 8+ marks and 2+ goals - if that was the case we would win every game by 10+ goals and go thru the season undefeated

Looking at Hamill's stats over his 190 game career he averaged

8.5 kicks, 5.5 handballs, 14 disposals, 4.5 marks, 2.8 tackles, 1.3 goals, 0.7 points

Now looking at Gwilt's stats over his 35 game career he has averaged

7.4 kicks, 5.1 handballs, 12.5 disposals, 4.0 marks, 2.1 tackles, 0.3 goals, 0.3 points

Fairly comparable!!

Ok of course Hamill brought a lot more to the table with regards to forward pressure but given Gwilts age (22) and the amt of games played (35) it is fair to say that he will only improve

With Gwilt we have a developing player who is just starting to find his feet and played his part in a team that is 9 zip - keep up the great work Jim!!!!

[AP Erebus]

It has been mentioned that Gwilt is "unproductive as a forward"

If that is the case and we bring in another forward that is "more productive" (ie: more possessions) wouldn't that mean that another forward would become less productive because Gwilt's replacement would be getting more of the ball.

It really is a shite argument about Gwilt being "unproductive"

Not every forward in the team can get 20+ possessions and 8+ marks and 2+ goals - if that was the case we would win every game by 10+ goals and go thru the season undefeated

Looking at Hamill's stats over his 190 game career he averaged

8.5 kicks, 5.5 handballs, 14 disposals, 4.5 marks, 2.8 tackles, 1.3 goals, 0.7 points

Now looking at Gwilt's stats over his 35 game career he has averaged

7.4 kicks, 5.1 handballs, 12.5 disposals, 4.0 marks, 2.1 tackles, 0.3 goals, 0.3 points

Fairly comparable!!

Ok of course Hamill brought a lot more to the table with regards to forward pressure but given Gwilts age (22) and the amt of games played (35) it is fair to say that he will only improve

With Gwilt we have a developing player who is just starting to find his feet and played his part in a team that is 9 zip - keep up the great work Jim!!!!

Well said.

I find it interesting that Gwilt is the first one that people jump on.

Personally, the teams winning, lets keep the dynamic. A team is more than just it's stars.

[saintsRrising]

I would not mind trying Armo as a HF...for he has a knack of kicking goals. He is smaller than Gwilt. But so far Gwilt has by and large not shown the the knack of kicking goals.

armo would come in for schneider or milne or a mid, wouldn't he?

imo gwilt's role belongs to someone who can be a marking target if necessary ... raph, lynch, maguire (perhaps).

But Gwilt is not playing as a marking target.

He is playing as a finisher...but is not finishing well. Though some handballs have been good.

raph I have not seena flair for goals in.

Maguire is a maybe..but the role would then be different to what Gwilt is playing.

Lynch is too raw...we are pushing to make the GF..we need hard-bodies anda few games.

[bigcarl]

I would not mind trying Armo as a HF...for he has a knack of kicking goals. He is smaller than Gwilt. But so far Gwilt has by and large not shown the the knack of kicking goals.

armo would come in for schneider or milne or a mid, wouldn't he?

imo gwilt's role belongs to someone who can be a marking target if necessary ... raph, lynch, maguire (perhaps).

But Gwilt is not playing as a marking target.

He is playing as a finisher...but is not finishing well. Though some handballs have been good.

raph I have not seena flair for goals in.

Maguire is a maybe..but the role would then be different to what Gwilt is playing.

Lynch is too raw...we are pushing to make the GF..we need hard-bodies anda few games.

i would have thought he was playing as the third tall forward that ross sometimes mentions ... the hamill role if you like. this would entail being a marking target at times.

don't mind him as a player and i'm aware that he has played some useful games as a defensive forward this season.

but i agree with you that he should impact more on the scoreboard than he does.