Anyone remember Olly? (Rookie picks ain't picks boss!)

[Enrico_Misso]

Olly Trand was one of our Rookie picks in 1999.
Like so many others he never played a game.
In fact for 10 years we pretty much wasted all our Rookie picks apart from Milne and (Ivy) Moyle.

The Rookie draft started in 1996.
In the first 10 years we only had 22 picks who played a total of 282 games for an ave game tally of 13.
If you exclude Milne it drops to 112 games for an ave of just 5 games each.
15 of the 22 never even played !!!!!!!!!!!

Here are the details …

Year Pick Rookie (Games played)
1996 No picks
1997 15 Lachlan Brown (0)
1998 10 James Gowans (4)
1998 25 Chris Gowans (0)
1998 39 Garth Pickford (0)
1998 49 Chad Davis (31)
1999 7 Mark Wittison (0)
1999 23 Stephen Milne (170+)
1999 39 Olly Trand (0)
1999 52 Brett Moyle (48)
2000 1 Chris Oliver (0)
2000 17 Justin Berry (0)
2001 2 Josh Dicketts (0)
2001 18 Ben Schwarze (11)
2001 34 Chris Jones (0)
2002 2 Allan Murray (15)
2002 18 Jordan Barham (0)
2003 6 Dylan Pfitzner (0)
2003 22 Nick Stone (3)
2004 14 Luke Mullins (0)
2004 30 Edward McDonnell (0)
2005 14 Cathal Corr (0)
2005 30 Dylan Pfitzner (0)

Whilst we were busy passing or picking duds, we could have had
1996 Bassett, Mark Johnson, Ward, Russell Robertson, Moorcroft, James McDonald, Mal Michael,
1997 Dean Rioli, Tivendale, Fletcher, Lockyer, Mark Johnson
1998 Kingsley, Grover, Kirk, Knobel
1999 Carroll, Kennelly, Tuck, Brogan, Cox,
2000 Osborne, Harding, Hayden, Campbell, Jolly, Lovett-Murray, Rooke, Copeland
2001 Thorton, Lynch, Miller, Boyd, Sandilands, Rutten, Mattner
2002 Sewell, Skipworth, Patfull, Maxwell, Osborne, Carroll
2003 Davey, Foley, Pratt, Lovett-Murray, Lovett
2004 Danyle Pearce, Clinton Young
2005 Priddis, Stiller


Then in 2006, as GT left the building, we seemed to change our attitude.
We began to take the Rookie draft seriously.
In the last 3 drafts we have taken 16 players (compared to 22 in the prev 10 years).
Too early to make definitive calls on them yet, but already they have collectively played 89 games and several look promising.

Year Pick Rookie (Games played)
2006 9 Clint Jones (31+)
2006 25 Luke Van Rheenen (0)
2006 39 Robert Eddy (14+)
2006 51 James Wall (0)
2006 58 Jayden Attard (20+)
2007 8 Glenn Chivers (0)
2007 24 Luke Miles (0+)
2007 39 Andrew McQualter (17+)
2007 51 Khan Haretuku (0+)
2008 13 Zac Dawson (5+)
2008 29 Tom Simpkin (0+)
2008 44 Brad Howard (2+)
2008 58 Steven Gaertner (0+)
2008 71 Ross Tungatalum (0+)
2008 80 Samuel McGarry (0+)
2008 84 Blake McGrath (0+)

The point is that whilst West Coast and Hawthorn saw the value of the Rookie draft years ago we have only just begun to see the value and try to leverage it.

Great for our future.
But what a waste of 10 years !

[battye]

Didn't Brad Howard play at least 1 game?

[Enrico_Misso]

Sorry Battye - he played 2 games.
(will edit).

But my point is due to poor management we wasted 10 years missing out on Rookie opportunities.

[clarky449]

Howard has played 2 games in 2007 Edit: already said in OP

[SaintBot]

Some great names there that we missed! Fletcher, Kirk, Cox, Sandilands, Sewell, Foley, Lovett, Davey...

By the way I believe you can make your argument sound even better by taking eleven games off the total and from Ben Schwarze. If my memory serves me well then he only ever got game-time at North Melbourne after we had delisted him.

[Mr Magic]

Interesting reading, but I think Chris Oliver played games(s) during the 2002/3 period - when we had that shocking enormous run of injuries?

[Enrico_Misso]

MM,
you are right - Chris Oliver played 10 games.

That's what happens when you copy-paste data off dodgy internet stats sites.
I used Footywire.com.

Obviously should have crosschecked with another more respectable site.

[Solar]

berry is the one that I personally wonder "what if"

the guy is better then the VFL, great skills, good sized body and a sense of where the goals are. Off field problems lead to him being sacked by the club.

To be fair early days the draftees were a little hit and miss, let alone the rookie list. It was more the early part of te 00's that we wasted te rookie list.

Will be very important with shallow drafts coming up

[saintsRrising]

Sorry Battye - he played 2 games.
(will edit).

But my point is due to poor management we wasted 10 years missing out on Rookie opportunities.

I agree with your point...and made it long and hard before GT left the building.

However Howards' first game was asa pick 27 player in the main draft.
He is yet to play a game as an elevated rookie.
I am not sure what Minis' post rookied count is.

[saintsRrising]

If Miles does play today...and that is only an if...that will be 7 players in the one team gained via the rooke list!!!

[Eastern]

If Miles does play today...and that is only an if...that will be 7 players in the one team gained via the rooke list!!!

Which suggests that our Development team are doing something RIGHT !!

[dcstkfc]

We should also be very pleased that we have the most rookies in the league- 8 I think.
Next best would be 5 or 6.

[stinger]

MM,
you are right - Chris Oliver played 10 games.

That's what happens when you copy-paste data off dodgy internet stats sites.
I used Footywire.com.

Obviously should have crosschecked with another more respectable site.

2001 18 Ben Schwarze (11)............for north , i think......

[felixleo]

Chad Davis would have been a champion till that bloke tried to remove his gonads and he decided football was not worth the price. (thats if he is the player i'm thinking of.)

[saint vince]

Anyone remember Olly?

I remember him taking about 27 marks in the forward fifty for seaford against my poor old Bonbeach boys. Was like a man playing against boys.

[saintly]

We should also be very pleased that we have the most rookies in the league- 8 I think.
Next best would be 5 or 6.

we have 9 rookies. the most of any clubs. the next best i belive is 8.

however, we need more international rookies!

[matrix]

hindsights great

[skeptic]

Mark Wittison

I remember watching an NAB cup games (or whatever the hell it was back then) where he absolutely tore Collingwood apart in the ruck

That was the last I ever saw of him

Anyone know anything about him..? Strengths, weaknesses, what happened to him

[st.byron]

Olly Trand was one of our Rookie picks in 1999.
Like so many others he never played a game.

Olly Trand played a season for North Fremantle in the WAAFL last year.
(equivalent of the Ammos in Melb).
I went to lots of Nth Fremantle games last year ( lost the GF by 7 points after missing two sitters from 20 metres out with five minutes to go) and Olly played CHF and Ruck. Didn't set the world on fire but was a solid contributor. He was pretty vocal in his on-field criticism of team mates and consequently didn't endear himself to his team mates as much as he could have. Went back to Melb after last season and don't know where he's playing this year.

[meher baba]

Here are the details …

Year Pick Rookie (Games played)
1996 No picks
1997 15 Lachlan Brown (0)
1998 10 James Gowans (4)
1998 25 Chris Gowans (0)
1998 39 Garth Pickford (0)
1998 49 Chad Davis (31)
1999 7 Mark Wittison (0)
1999 23 Stephen Milne (170+)
1999 39 Olly Trand (0)
1999 52 Brett Moyle (48)
2000 1 Chris Oliver (0)
2000 17 Justin Berry (0)
2001 2 Josh Dicketts (0)
2001 18 Ben Schwarze (11)
2001 34 Chris Jones (0)
2002 2 Allan Murray (15)
2002 18 Jordan Barham (0)
2003 6 Dylan Pfitzner (0)
2003 22 Nick Stone (3)
2004 14 Luke Mullins (0)
2004 30 Edward McDonnell (0)
2005 14 Cathal Corr (0)
2005 30 Dylan Pfitzner (0)

Whilst we were busy passing or picking duds, we could have had
1996 Bassett, Mark Johnson, Ward, Russell Robertson, Moorcroft, James McDonald, Mal Michael,
1997 Dean Rioli, Tivendale, Fletcher, Lockyer, Mark Johnson
1998 Kingsley, Grover, Kirk, Knobel
1999 Carroll, Kennelly, Tuck, Brogan, Cox,
2000 Osborne, Harding, Hayden, Campbell, Jolly, Lovett-Murray, Rooke, Copeland
2001 Thorton, Lynch, Miller, Boyd, Sandilands, Rutten, Mattner
2002 Sewell, Skipworth, Patfull, Maxwell, Osborne, Carroll
2003 Davey, Foley, Pratt, Lovett-Murray, Lovett
2004 Danyle Pearce, Clinton Young
2005 Priddis, Stiller


Then in 2006, as GT left the building, we seemed to change our attitude.
We began to take the Rookie draft seriously.
In the last 3 drafts we have taken 16 players (compared to 22 in the prev 10 years).
Too early to make definitive calls on them yet, but already they have collectively played 89 games and several look promising.

Year Pick Rookie (Games played)
2006 9 Clint Jones (31+)
2006 25 Luke Van Rheenen (0)
2006 39 Robert Eddy (14+)
2006 51 James Wall (0)
2006 58 Jayden Attard (20+)
2007 8 Glenn Chivers (0)
2007 24 Luke Miles (0+)
2007 39 Andrew McQualter (17+)
2007 51 Khan Haretuku (0+)
2008 13 Zac Dawson (5+)
2008 29 Tom Simpkin (0+)
2008 44 Brad Howard (2+)
2008 58 Steven Gaertner (0+)
2008 71 Ross Tungatalum (0+)
2008 80 Samuel McGarry (0+)
2008 84 Blake McGrath (0+)

The point is that whilst West Coast and Hawthorn saw the value of the Rookie draft years ago we have only just begun to see the value and try to leverage it.

Great for our future.
But what a waste of 10 years !

Geez I love these crying over spilt milk threads!!

Looking first of all at your list of rookies drafted "since GT left the building" who are "great for our future", I note that it includes Van Rheenan, Wall, Attard and Chivers who I expect are all going to play an enormous contribution to our future (not).

Jones: yes, fair enough, a good player, who would almost cerrtainly have been overlooked in the GT era. (But he is probably the oldest rookie in the history of AFL, so is a really unusual case.) Eddy: yes, he's ok, but is he any better than Chad Davis, Allan Murray or Ben Schwarze? Time will tell.

You seem to have left Geary off your list, and I think he's got more potential than any rookie we have recruited since Milne. As for McQualter and Howard: now you are clutching at straws, surely. They were only placed on the rookie list by the club for list management purposes. And that's a function of the new rookie system since 2006, which the club recruiters you are implicitly criticising in your post did not have availabe to them.

As for the likes of Miles, Tungatulum, Simpkin et al, it's surely a bit early to say whether or not they are going to turn out to be any better than Dicketts, McDonnell, Mullins, Corr et al.

As for your list of players we "ought" to have picked instead of our "duds" in the 1996-2005 period, I just think this is drivel. Take 2001 for example: Thornton was taken at pick 11, Lynch at pick 19, Boyd at pick 23, Nathan Bock (you missed him) at pick 25, Miller at pick 30 (but by Richmond: he only went to the Demons later on), Sandilands at pick 33, Rutten at pick 40 and Mattner at pick 51. You also missed Carazzo, who was taken at pick 5 by Geelong but was chucked back in the pool and picked up by Carlton in 2003.

I reckon Boyd and Rutten and possibly Bock (although I'm not as huge a fan as many commentators) are the only ones of these 9 I would even consider wanting to have at the Saints right now, and - given that I don't think any of them would be certainties to make our top 22 right now - we wouldn't really want to have them given the salary cap problems they would create.

And - consider this - Rutten was passed over at least twice by every club before Adelaide took him: including those fabulous judges at the Hawks and West Coast who, between them, took Brent Tuckey, Ben Kane, Darren Whyman and Clancy Rudeforth in preference (and well might you ask "who are these guys"?). The Bulldogs took Boyd on their second go after picking up that AFL legend Nick Greenwood with their first go. Adelaide - who actually managed to get 3 pretty good players in this rookie draft - missed all these with their first pick which instead went to a nobody called Paul Thomas (who later went to the Bombers, but remained a nobody).

All this shows is that rookie selection is a hit and miss affair, just like the regular draft (which, over the past 3 years, has produced a grand total of zero players who have played AFL football this season at St Kilda).

That's the problem with all these crying over spilt milk threads: they lack any sort of sensible perspective, and can actually turn out to be wrong over tim. How many posts on here have we had asserting that we utterly wasted our first round pick (#16) on McQualter in 2004? A few hundred, perhaps more.

Now, have a look here

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_d ... 04&t=N&s=P

On current form, and leaving aside the Father/Son picks, how many players drafted below McQualter would you want to swap for him? For mine, there is only one clear-cut example: Justin Sherman, taken in the third round by Brisbane. But he is a classic smoky: along with us, there are 14 other clubs who wish they had detected his ability!!

So, in short, all that stuff about McQualter has turned out to be wrong. And, likewise, all those club recruiters who missed Sherman, or Rutten, or Boyd, or Bock were also wrong. That's the way it goes with recruiting: there's a lot of class in it, but also a fair bit of ass as well!!

[InkerSaint]

On current form, and leaving aside the Father/Son picks, how many players drafted below McQualter would you want to swap for him? For mine, there is only one clear-cut example: Justin Sherman, taken in the third round by Brisbane. But he is a classic smoky: along with us, there are 14 other clubs who wish they had detected his ability!!

Not sure that I'd swap for him, but West Coast must be pretty happy with Mark LeCras.

[FortiusQuoFidelius]

Chad Davis would have been a champion till that bloke tried to remove his gonads and he decided football was not worth the price. (thats if he is the player i'm thinking of.)

It was Peter Filandia from the Swans who tried to removed Chad's gonads with his teeth!

[meher baba]

On current form, and leaving aside the Father/Son picks, how many players drafted below McQualter would you want to swap for him? For mine, there is only one clear-cut example: Justin Sherman, taken in the third round by Brisbane. But he is a classic smoky: along with us, there are 14 other clubs who wish they had detected his ability!!

Not sure that I'd swap for him, but West Coast must be pretty happy with Mark LeCras.

Fair cop, I didn't notice him on the list.

Like McQualter, he has taken a while to come on, but is now looking like he has a fair bit of star quality.

However, we went into the 2004 draft expressly looking for some more tough, hardworking midfielders to succeed Harves, Thommo and Powell. It's been a long journey, but it looks as if we can now look back on our choice of Mini and say that it turned out pretty well.

[rocksolid]

HE HAS TO COME BACK FROM INJURY, BUT PRISMALL PLAYED A SOME GOOD GAMES FOR GEELONG BEFORE A KNEE

[ace]

[quote="Enrico_Misso"]Olly Trand was one of our Rookie picks in 1999.
Like so many others he never played a game.
In fact for 10 years we pretty much wasted all our Rookie picks apart from Milne and (Ivy) Moyle.

The Rookie draft started in 1996.
In the first 10 years we only had 22 picks who played a total of 282 games for an ave game tally of 13.
[b]If you exclude Milne it drops to 112 games for an ave of just 5 games each.
15 of the 22 never even played !!!!!!!!!!![/b]

Here are the details …

[b]Year Pick Rookie (Games played)[/b]
1996 No picks
1997 15 Lachlan Brown (0)
1998 10 James Gowans (4)
1998 25 Chris Gowans (0)
1998 39 Garth Pickford (0)
1998 49 Chad Davis (31)
1999 7 Mark Wittison (0)
1999 23 Stephen Milne (170+)
1999 39 Olly Trand (0)
1999 52 Brett Moyle (48)
2000 1 Chris Oliver (0)
2000 17 Justin Berry (0)
2001 2 Josh Dicketts (0)
2001 18 Ben Schwarze (11)
2001 34 Chris Jones (0)
2002 2 Allan Murray (15)
2002 18 Jordan Barham (0)
2003 6 Dylan Pfitzner (0)
2003 22 Nick Stone (3)
2004 14 Luke Mullins (0)
2004 30 Edward McDonnell (0)
2005 14 Cathal Corr (0)
2005 30 Dylan Pfitzner (0)

Whilst we were busy passing or picking duds, we could have had
1996 Bassett, Mark Johnson, Ward, Russell Robertson, Moorcroft, James McDonald, Mal Michael,
1997 Dean Rioli, Tivendale, Fletcher, Lockyer, Mark Johnson
1998 Kingsley, Grover, Kirk, Knobel
1999 Carroll, Kennelly, Tuck, Brogan, Cox,
2000 Osborne, Harding, Hayden, Campbell, Jolly, Lovett-Murray, Rooke, Copeland
2001 Thorton, Lynch, Miller, Boyd, Sandilands, Rutten, Mattner
2002 Sewell, Skipworth, Patfull, Maxwell, Osborne, Carroll
2003 Davey, Foley, Pratt, Lovett-Murray, Lovett
2004 Danyle Pearce, Clinton Young
2005 Priddis, Stiller


Then in 2006, as GT left the building, we seemed to change our attitude.
We began to take the Rookie draft seriously.
In the last 3 drafts we have taken 16 players (compared to 22 in the prev 10 years).
Too early to make definitive calls on them yet, but already they have collectively played 89 games and several look promising.

[b]Year Pick Rookie (Games played)[/b]
2006 9 Clint Jones (31+)
2006 25 Luke Van Rheenen (0)
2006 39 Robert Eddy (14+)
2006 51 James Wall (0)
2006 58 Jayden Attard (20+)
2007 8 Glenn Chivers (0)
2007 24 Luke Miles (0+)
2007 39 Andrew McQualter (17+)
2007 51 Khan Haretuku (0+)
2008 13 Zac Dawson (5+)
2008 29 Tom Simpkin (0+)
2008 44 Brad Howard (2+)
2008 58 Steven Gaertner (0+)
2008 71 Ross Tungatalum (0+)
2008 80 Samuel McGarry (0+)
2008 84 Blake McGrath (0+)

The point is that whilst West Coast and Hawthorn saw the value of the Rookie draft years ago we have only just begun to see the value and try to leverage it.

Great for our future.
[b]But what a waste of 10 years ![/b][/quote]


A club MUST pay out at least 92.5% of the salary cap.
Any payment under 100% improves the club's bottom line.

Rookies must be paid a minimum of $33,200 p.a.
This is NOT included in the salary cap.
Like all other staff at the club, if you can do without them, not having them improves the club's bottom line.

At the end of last year 2008 - officially the 2009 rookie draft.
Brisbane passed on 3 rookie zone picks
Adelaide passed on 1 rookie pick
Bulldogs passed on 2 rookie pick
Richmond passed on 1 rookie pick
Port Adelaide passed on 1 rookie pick

Each of these clubs has saved money.
The Bulldogs publicly gave their reason before the rookie draft as money saving.

Just because Thomas said he wasn't interested in rookies doesn't mean he was.
It could well be that Butterss gave him no choice.