Lessons of 2004

[perfectionist]

Don't start Lenny on the bench - Bulldogs game - second loss for the year.

FUnnily enough were lead the Bulldogs at qtr time in that game...it was only in the 2nd qtr (when Lenny was on the ground) that they started carving us up.

Weird game that one..I remember walking into the G thinking "this is our best 22 today...first time for the year ..even after winning 10 straight"..and look what happened

Not our best 22. Blake was omitted for the second week running and Luke Darcy had a birthday, hand feeding West, Eagleton & Co. Two losses in two weeks, the Thomas "experiment" a miserable failure and Blake returned to the team and we won by 11 goals. Too late! We then needed to win in Brisbane to get top two. Alas, not to be - it was too damn hot!

I must say I am amazed when otherwise intelligent people contend that injuries have no effect on performance when all the evidence of the last 70 years says otherwise, especially in GFs. Can anyone seriously imagine Geelong coming anywhere near a GF if Ablett, Scarlett and Chapman all went down with season ending injuries on the weekend? You don't have to imagine too hard - look back at Geelong's performance in 2006 and look at the number of games missed by the likes of the above three players, not to mention Bartel.

[InkerSaint]

I must say I am amazed when otherwise intelligent people contend that injuries have no effect on performance when all the evidence of the last 70 years says otherwise, especially in GFs. Can anyone seriously imagine Geelong coming anywhere near a GF if Ablett, Scarlett and Chapman all went down with season ending injuries on the weekend? You don't have to imagine too hard - look back at Geelong's performance in 2006 and look at the number of games missed by the likes of the above three players, not to mention Bartel.

Which is why I don't rate Hawthorn this year. They will be lucky to hold on to a top 8 slot.

[Sainter_Dad]

Any Saints fan planning to make the ultimate decision should delay such plans until the 27th September.

Aaahhhh the horror - what am I going to tell the sweetest thing in my life about our 11th wedding anniversary - 26th of September - lol

It is Silverware for the 11th isn't it - Holy crap - just had a horror thought - please no Carlton v St Kilda grand final (she is a bluebagger of the nicest kind)

[thejiggingsaint]

Gday Folks! another difference to me is in the attitude of the boys. Can anyone remember that game V Carlton (which brought up the ten-win streak) and how Milney lairised with that handball down at the Lockett end? I can recall thinking how I would have felt if the Saints had been on the end of such arrogance. Carlton were truly a rabble that day and we ended up taking our foot away from their throats in the final quarter, when we should have gone even harder I think. The next game exposed us as being not quite the force we all thought we were.
This current crop are so far, showing much more determination to win as a TEAM.
That in my book is the greatest difference between the two sides. (much as I loved belting the Carlton team in 04!)
I remember this time last year seeing Bulldogs supporters at our home games strutting around in (Brand -new) scarves and caps. As they say: "pride comes before a fall" I hope that the attitude displayed by this current side is reflected by the Supporters this week!

[saintsRrising]

Injuries always have an negative effect...but depending to whom and how many how much of a negative this is can be quite variable.

But if you have greater depth they will have less effect.

Most teams will always have several players out. ie Cats in their flag year had Egan out...and King was nursed through the year to be GF ready....


So it is not so much to have no injuries (as that would be nice)...but to have no more than your key competitors.

In 2004 we underperformed in the area of controllable injuries (ie discount impact and freak injuries).

In this one area...we are now up with the competitions best (noting that all teams are doing more than that what they were 5 years ago).


In other non-injury areas we are also IMO markedly better...but it is only Round 5.

[Thinline]

I'm not sure there's a helluva lot opposition coaches can do to overcome a gameplan built on absolute accountability and absolute defensive pressure over the entire ground.

The onus will remain on the players to keep up the same level of intensity every week.

Given the inherent tough physical nature of what we are doing, that will be a huge challenge.

Come season end there'll be some seriously battered bodies.

Hope not, of course. But we'll see.

Regardless of what happened last Friday night, this Sunday against a quick and skilful and desperate Dogs outfit will be THE test.

[saintly]

I'm not sure there's a helluva lot opposition coaches can do to overcome a gameplan built on absolute accountability and absolute defensive pressure over the entire ground.

The onus will remain on the players to keep up the same level of intensity every week.

Given the inherent tough physical nature of what we are doing, that will be a huge challenge.

Come season end there'll be some seriously battered bodies.

Hope not, of course. But we'll see.

Regardless of what happened last Friday night, this Sunday against a quick and skilful and desperate Dogs outfit will be THE test.

maybe it will depend on whether the opposition can do the same thing. if they can ithe game should be a dogfight.

[InkerSaint]

I'm not sure there's a helluva lot opposition coaches can do to overcome a gameplan built on absolute accountability and absolute defensive pressure over the entire ground.

The onus will remain on the players to keep up the same level of intensity every week.

Given the inherent tough physical nature of what we are doing, that will be a huge challenge.

Come season end there'll be some seriously battered bodies.

Hope not, of course. But we'll see.

Regardless of what happened last Friday night, this Sunday against a quick and skilful and desperate Dogs outfit will be THE test.

Absolutely, and those questions have also been in my mind.

For every strategy there is a counter strategy. Is Lyon's "full court press" based on the games Collingwood and Hawthorn used to beat the Cats, and developed into a system?

Or is it something else, based on the playing group's existing strengths and capabilities?

Is it something that just about any team can emulate?

Is it sustainable?

The beauty of the Saints' position is that potentially, like Hawthorn last year, they have the rest of the competition on the hop. It might take them six months to catch on, or six weeks. Again it's early days but it will be fascinating to see unfold.

[Hurricane]

We have a COACH and not a "man manager"

BANG BANG

[stinger]

Main lesson from 2004 - don't get injured.

Main lesson from 2004 - an 85% fit Aaron Hamill is a lot better than a 100% fit Trent Knobel.

i would have thought that that should have been 15% fit aaron.......

[Shaggy]

We have a COACH and not a "man manager"

BANG BANG

Lol ... what does that mean?

RL now has a mature list to deal with. RL should not have to guide the players ... most have played 7 years plus. Very different to the key core being 4-5 years. CJ, Mini and Zac are good players but are not the key to our current success. They can be replaced. Our young ones in 2004 were key to our success I.E. ball, Roo, Dal, Kosi.

And I am not having a go at RL who now is getting the best anyone could expect out of them.

[saintsRrising]

Very different to the key core being 4-5 years. .

In 2004 our core were players that were playing good football for us in our GF year of 97. Hardly kids...and had been in the system for more than 4-5 years.


Add to that two exceptional players in Hamil and GTrain in their prime and almost ten year veterans.....and then other players such as Voss, Powell.....

Even the "young" Heath Black was in his eighth season.

This myth of the previous coach having success with a bunch of kids....is just that a myth. The list always had a healthy dose of experienced players.


So Lyon does not have a lot of young players in the team at present...but then again he has not had a swag of very low draft picks to work with and so that is hardly surprising.

[Shaggy]

Very different to the key core being 4-5 years. .

In 2004 our core were players that were playing good football for us in our GF year of 97. Hardly kids...and had been in the system for more than 4-5 years.

Add to that two exceptional players in Hamil and GTrain in their prime and almost ten year veteran.....and then other players such as Voss, Powell.....

This myth of the previous coach having success with a bunch of kids....is just that a myth. The list always had a healthy does of experienced players.


So Lyon does not have a lot of young players in the team at present...but then again he has not had a swag of very low draft picks to work with and so that is hardly surprising.

Is it really a myth?.

I knew we had no chance 2004. I was seriously surprised 2005. And as a hopefull pro punter I made good money backing us after the Adelaide game in 2006 for the finals (my first bet AFL ... I thank B4E for the odds ).

RL has been delivered a monty. But Geelong is possibly IMO the best side I have ever seen in 30 years.

I am not going to blame RL if we lose but I do expect him to take us to the GF based on GT taking the kids to the PF.

IMO RL will be a premiership coach and I think GT is right ... no coach could get us firing currently better than RL.

Belief, maturity and relationship is very important IMO.

[kaos theory]

2004 was NOT a team of kids, its a myth.

Some of the 'kids' that took the team to success in 2004:
- Aussie Jones
- Powell
- Pecket
- Andrew Thomposon
- G-Train (in prime)
- Penny
- Maxy (in prime)
- Harvey (in prime)
- Black
- Voss
- Hamil
- Hayes (just moving into prime)
- Milne (just moving into prime)
- Baker (in prime)
- Blake (just moving into prime)

That's 15 players that under some people's defintion were 'kids' in 2004.

[saintly]

Main lesson from 2004 - don't get injured.

At present our backfield structure has our opponents bamboozled....but history suggests that the other coaches will seek to try and come up with ways to beat our structures.

If they do....then Lyon will be tested..

Agreed, but if RL is as good a coach as we think he is, he should be thinking about how he would undo his own gameplan and have plans B, C, D and E ready to implement. I think he's already trying to make figuring out our gameplan difficult by playing players in different roles each week...e.g. BJ up front against Weagles, Milne on the wing, or in the centre etc

i hope he's got other gameplans other then the one he's using. othersie we won't last the distance. as all clubs will be looking at the saintsintently on how to get around tgameplan A

[Saints43]

We have had a good list since 2003/2004.

Both GT & RL have had access to good players (and a pretty good mix IMO).

I reckon that the team is playing the best (most convincing) football I have seen them play under either coach.

All that remains to be seen is wether the current standard can be maintained over most of the season (especially at the right stages of the season) and is successful against the Cats.

[saintsRrising]

I am not going to blame RL if we lose but I do expect him to take us to the GF based on GT taking the kids to the PF.

.

Garbage. It was not a team full of kids.

2004 PF Team

Lenny Hayes
Stephen Powell
Robert Harvey
Andrew Thompson
Luke Ball
Nick Riewoldt
Heath Black
Nick Dal Santo
Austinn Jones
Justin Peckett
Brett Voss
Jason Blake
Justin Koschitzke
Fraser Gehrig
Steven Baker
Luke Penny
Matthew Maguire
Max Hudghton
Brent Guerra
Brendon Goddard
Stephen Milne
Trent Knobel


You want a successful team of kids try the Baby Bombers.

[rodgerfox]

I am not going to blame RL if we lose but I do expect him to take us to the GF based on GT taking the kids to the PF.

.

Garbage. It was not a team full of kids.

2004 PF Team

Lenny Hayes
Stephen Powell
Robert Harvey
Andrew Thompson
Luke Ball
Nick Riewoldt
Heath Black
Nick Dal Santo
Austinn Jones
Justin Peckett
Brett Voss
Jason Blake
Justin Koschitzke
Fraser Gehrig
Steven Baker
Luke Penny
Matthew Maguire
Max Hudghton
Brent Guerra
Brendon Goddard
Stephen Milne
Trent Knobel


You want a successful team of kids try the Baby Bombers.

The main factor is though I believe, that from that list probably only 4 could be considered in their 'prime'.

The difference now, is that we have all of our team bar probably 4 who are in their 'prime'.


We are far better placed in terms of our list than we were 5 years ago.

[saintsRrising]

RL has been delivered a monty. IMO.

Why?

RL gained a team witha greater number of good players on it than many new coaches = YES.

RL delivered a monty = NO.

RL IMO was delivered a team in decline.

List had some very good players (though Hamil was crippled and gawwwwwwwn)...but depth was basically non-existant.

Overall the list had huge injury problems due to years of mis-management.

List had major flaws..not one decent ruckman (or decent young ruckman coming up either) with a batch of good mids about to retire with not enough coming up to replace those retiring...leaving the Saints with only half a midfield in an era when large and deep midfields were required.


Team work-rate was poor...a team full of downhill skiers that had not put ina 4 quarter effort since the streak = team full of mentally fragle players with poor team ethos or work-rate.

[saintsRrising]

The main factor is though I believe, that from that list probably only 4 could be considered in their 'prime'..

I was replying to the team being one of kids. Irrespective of whether you regard them as being in their prime or not...their birthdates clearly indicate that most were not kids.

We are far better placed in terms of our list than we were 5 years ago.

I agree that our team has been built by Lyon to havea good balance to have a tilt at the flag. So yes the team has been built into a better one.

However Cats and Hawks are stronger than what the Saints faced in 2004...when the Lions were well past their best...and PA while Premiers that year were not as good as either the Hawks or the Cats.

It is a much more difficult task to win the flag in 2009 than in 2004.

Wining in 2009 is akin to knocking the Lions off in their prime.

[rodgerfox]

The main factor is though I believe, that from that list probably only 4 could be considered in their 'prime'..

I was replying to the team being one of kids. Irrespective of whether you regard them as being in their prime or not...their birthdates clearly indicate that most were not kids.

We are far better placed in terms of our list than we were 5 years ago.

I agree that our team has been built by Lyon to havea good balance to have a tilt at the flag. So yes the team has been built into a better one.

However Cats and Hawks are stronger than what the Saints faced in 2004...when the Lions were well past their best...and PA while Premiers that year were not as good as either the Hawks or the Cats.

It is a much more difficult task to win the flag in 2009 than in 2004.

Wining in 2009 is akin to knocking the Lions off in their prime.

I don't agree really.

Adding the two ruckman is definately working currently, but apart from that I just don't see any real improvement in the 'list' in terms of additions or 'building'.

Jones and Geary are currently playing well, but I think this is mainly due to having our guns up and firing - allowing these lesser lights to play far smaller roles - or at least getting lots of help.

So really, I see our improvement since last year being simply 3 things....

1. The maturing of already established footballers who are now in their prime.
2. The fitness and availability of these same guys
3. The mental grit being shown this year

The first one naturally happens. Keeping them at the club whilst you wait for this to occur is the controllable.

The second two factors can be attributed to Lyon, although really they generally tie in with the first point.

He's in charge though so he takes the credit.

He also takes the criticism when it doesn't work.

[saintsRrising]

1. The maturing of already established footballers who are now in their prime.

The first one naturally happens. Keeping them at the club whilst you wait for this to occur is the controllable.

.

Naturally?

Like Barry Hall?

Like Beetham?

Like Dal Santo? Personally I think it took Lyon to turn Dal into a better player.

Some players the coach can take to another level...other like Fiora, the coach cannot. That is where he has to be pulling all the levers to get other players by aqusition, or by development.
Ray for example is an interesting one..a flawed player turned around so far.

CJ is another excellent case study....perserved with by the coacxh to be developed into an offensive midfield tagger.


Waiting for players to "naturally" develop is what the previous regime did, or rather did not do.

Take the sad example of Kosi in the ruck...never developed asa ruckman from what I could see...poor tapwork and did not know how to use his body in ruck contests. Left to develop naturally asa ruckman....to both his and clubs diservice.



Lyon spells out what he wants...and develops players.

[Solar]

going back to the actual heading of the thread

lesson learnt?

- Win important gmes in the second half of the season so you don't end up playing key finals interstate (will not matter this year by the looks of it)

- injury management. Was not as bad as 2005 but in '04 injuries till slowed us down.

- tempo football. The ability to slow down the oppoisition whe they get on top and changing the momentum our way.

Also agree that there are more of our 18 that are in their prime. midfield goals help

[saintly]

1. The maturing of already established footballers who are now in their prime.

The first one naturally happens. Keeping them at the club whilst you wait for this to occur is the controllable.

.

Naturally?

Like Barry Hall?

Like Beetham?

Like Dal Santo? Personally I think it took Lyon to turn Dal into a better player.

Some players the coach can take to another level...other like Fiora, the coach cannot. That is where he has to be pulling all the levers to get other players by aqusition, or by development.
Ray for example is an interesting one..a flawed player turned around so far.

CJ is another excellent case study....perserved with by the coacxh to be developed into an offensive midfield tagger.


Waiting for players to "naturally" develop is what the previous regime did, or rather did not do.
Take the sad example of Kosi in the ruck...never developed asa ruckman from what I could see...poor tapwork and did not know how to use his body in ruck contests. Left to develop naturally asa ruckman....to both his and clubs diservice.



Lyon spells out what he wants...and develops players.

a agree with you. i remember the previous regime talking about its natural talent and how they were developing.

but also we now have more assistant coaches plus a development coach for the young players - that guy who as come from sydney.

it just seems to me that except for collingwood we are now on a par with other teams in terms of coaches, assistants, taining, development, prevention of injuries.

[aussiejones]

This year the group is playing as a team .Less reliance on the stars and new additions like Ray are standing up. Tackling like I have never seen before with the Saints.

Keep it up !!!!!

Also I hope RL has other game plans as the op will come up with a game plan to counter the way we are playing