Moorabbin

[No1_Saint]

Waverley is a quality site now, when Hawthorn moved there it wasn't (in fact i believe the area was a s*** hole in the rain belt).
Moving to the Frankston area increases the club footprint as the BaySide Club, it stretches the clubs area, from the St Kilda to the peninsula.
Why will Seaford never be a quality training track?

Um...

I live about a three minute walk from the ground..

And if its in a rain belt.....could have fooled me. Bigger load of horseapples you will never hear.

The whole site was a reserve that the AFL bought for nothing way back.

It is still being developed into a reasonably high density housing estate. Nice place actually.

For interstaters, Hawthorn stayed on, keeping tennancy in the old members stand there. It is the only bit left standing from the stadium. Bit of an eyesore to be honest. Their facilities are absolutely top notch though. Seriously good. I use their gym...it is state of the art.

True that about the rain thing. I grew up within a 10 minute walk from the ground and most of the time when the Saints played on Saturday arvo....(remember those days....tear ) it was bathed in sunshine to the point most of the second half if you were sitting in the members bay on the Jackson road side you would have to wear sunglasses. lmao Good times.

It's funny now the AFL realises....albeit belatedly that it has no bargaining power with either the Docklands or MCG without an alternative ground to go to.

Yes Waverley was a dump...the screen was ridiculously useless, the hot dog stand ran out of the sole product it sold for the day before the 2nd quarter, the drinks were warm and pies were cold, sometimes half the ground near the members stand was shrouded in fog for at least half the first quarter, hell even the lights went out during a night match between us and Essendon(good times...and no I didn't set the goal posts on fire)...but it was bigger and cheaper to run then whatver the new joint is called. Thus endeth my rant.

[Solar]

thank you for a straight answer Ice Wolf.
the reason i feel BP will not ever be a quality surface is that the surface there is rubbish. clearly it would need to be re-done. one just feels that there is not the potential for a quality surface at BP.


bigred which is precisely why i am using NMFC as an example. how are they managing to afford such a construction?

Solar, punt road is a dump that they share with cricketers in the pre-season and their onfield play suggests suchly. i would think that it would be dramatically more affordable to develop Moorabbin than it would to start at roughly the same place with BP. which is to say that to develop linton street would be cheaper than to develop BP.

who will make up the money that the frankston council have put forward

how will we convince the kingston council to redevelop the area?

[Loyal]

thank you for a straight answer Ice Wolf.
the reason i feel BP will not ever be a quality surface is that the surface there is rubbish. clearly it would need to be re-done. one just feels that there is not the potential for a quality surface at BP.


bigred which is precisely why i am using NMFC as an example. how are they managing to afford such a construction?

Solar, punt road is a dump that they share with cricketers in the pre-season and their onfield play suggests suchly. i would think that it would be dramatically more affordable to develop Moorabbin than it would to start at roughly the same place with BP. which is to say that to develop linton street would be cheaper than to develop BP.

who will make up the money that the frankston council have put forward

how will we convince the kingston council to redevelop the area?

we dont NEED the extra money from FCC and we dont NEED the BP project is what i am saying.

we dont want the money from FCC and the BP headache when we can have our Moorabbin and our Moorabbin now the way that we want/need it.

Kingston City Council are in reality more flexible than Frankston City Council Solar. The old dealings with them were done with the old heads that are no longer in power at KCC.

[bigred]

Just quietly, the plans for our facility absolutely blow both of the dogs and Norths completely out of the water.

North and the dogs are really doing a considerable upgrade.

They dont need the extra money.

When complete, our facility will be comparible if not better than the Filth's, WCE, Adelaide or Freo.

Kingston Council being more flexible



I dont think so. They had their chance and lost it. They have moved on.
Seriously, they had a MASSIVE opportunity to have the whole Linton st precinct upgraded to a nice community park with a high profile football club on it.....

Now they just have their park.

[Solar]

thank you for a straight answer Ice Wolf.
the reason i feel BP will not ever be a quality surface is that the surface there is rubbish. clearly it would need to be re-done. one just feels that there is not the potential for a quality surface at BP.


bigred which is precisely why i am using NMFC as an example. how are they managing to afford such a construction?

Solar, punt road is a dump that they share with cricketers in the pre-season and their onfield play suggests suchly. i would think that it would be dramatically more affordable to develop Moorabbin than it would to start at roughly the same place with BP. which is to say that to develop linton street would be cheaper than to develop BP.

who will make up the money that the frankston council have put forward

how will we convince the kingston council to redevelop the area?

we dont NEED the extra money from FCC and we dont NEED the BP project is what i am saying.

we dont want the money from FCC and the BP headache when we can have our Moorabbin and our Moorabbin now the way that we want/need it.

Kingston City Council are in reality more flexible than Frankston City Council Solar. The old dealings with them were done with the old heads that are no longer in power at KCC.

The reason why the original moorabin re-development fell down was because we had to fund the whole development, on a loan based on future south rd pokie revenue.

So what your suggesting is we throw out all the work on gaining funding from both levels of government and develop an area. This is based on a suggestion that it will somehow cost less to put in a similar development at moorabin? HUH? So instead of 1.7 million plus extras we have to cough up that plus what the govt's have invested..... sheesh I would have hated to be your maths teacher!

Kingston were making noises about the distruction of the stands at moorabin and that was a small issue. The council don't want the club, frankston on the other hand is paying over the top to get us.

Do tell us a couple of things

- why is it cheaper at moorabin?

- why would kingston even think about entertaining the saints?

- who makes up the funding we will get from frankston?

Who inside st kilda would even think about going back 5 years after all the work done.

[Loyal]

Just quietly, the plans for our facility absolutely blow both of the dogs and Norths completely out of the water.

do they? really? how so?

When complete, our facility will be comparible if not better than the Filth's, WCE, Adelaide or Freo.

last i looked Collingwood did match-sim at Gosches Paddock itself a sh*theap. they have a gym, an admin, and a bunch of other things including a cafe that no-one eats at. they have no field and thats why they suck.

[Loyal]

- why is it cheaper at moorabin?

logistics

- why would kingston even think about entertaining the saints?

i would

- who makes up the funding we will get from frankston?

we dont need the money as moorabbin is less logistically challenged. the field is done all we need are a few small buildings and a couple of ice baths an expanded gym etc etc. the demolition has been done.

let me ask you something Solar:-

why do we need to capitalise on the bayside population, so we can have a few-dozen more people attend a midweek training session?

[Solar]

- why is it cheaper at moorabin?

logistics

- why would kingston even think about entertaining the saints?

i would

- who makes up the funding we will get from frankston?

we dont need the money as moorabbin is less logistically challenged. the field is done all we need are a few small buildings and a couple of ice baths an expanded gym etc etc. the demolition has been done.

let me ask you something Solar:-

why do we need to capitalise on the bayside population, so we can have a few-dozen more people attend a midweek training session?

we don't, and thats the whole point. It is not important at present to get more people to training. It's about getting a professional training facility at a price that will not break the bank. Therefore it didn't matter if it was at frankston park, BP, moorabin or casey as far as I was concerned. As long as it did not put us into a debt we could not pay off and it allowed our players to be the best they could be I was going to be happy.

Questions for you

"Who at the city of kingston would even entertain the move".

"why are the logicistics any better at moorabin?" the actual facilities there that are not being knocked down at 60's condition. BP on the other hand is a blank canvas.

in addition to the second question, how would the saints make up the millions put forward by the frankston council.

How much will it cost to get permits, develop plans and negotiate with a building developer?

I know how you will answer all this but I guess I'm a sucker;

I would

it's the vibe

cause the re-development just needs a couple of sheds and a ice bath....

etc.

I would have loved it if the original project had got up and the kingston council had actually embraced the club

hell I would love it if we had 10 billion to buy the stkilda triangle and have our huge opperations down by luna park

but I actually live in reality

[Loyal]

last time i looked moorabbin appeared a relatively 'blank canvas'.

what constitutes an elite facility is what i'm getting at. do we need a lexus cafe that no-one uses? no

do we really, really need more people at training? probably not.
do we need a big flashing sign saying 'jeldwen centre'? no.
do we need a video conference room? yes, mos def.
do we need a better gym? of course we do.
do we need an improved admin area? maybe.
do we need more pokies? i dont know.

bricks and mortar aren't expensive. its all about location at the end of the day.

you ask yourself what you really need and the answer is in front of you. we need to develop moorabbin.

these blokes want to win a flag.
why turn our backs on a station that has provided us with our only success when the more passionate thing is to stick-and-stay. WBD have.

[Solar]

last time i looked moorabbin appeared a relatively 'blank canvas'.

what constitutes an elite facility is what i'm getting at. do we need a lexus cafe that no-one uses? no

do we really, really need more people at training? probably not.
do we need a big flashing sign saying 'jeldwen centre'? no.
do we need a video conference room? yes, mos def.
do we need a better gym? of course we do.
do we need an improved admin area? maybe.
do we need more pokies? i dont know.

bricks and mortar aren't expensive. its all about location at the end of the day.

you ask yourself what you really need and the answer is in front of you. we need to develop moorabbin.

these blokes want to win a flag.
why turn our backs on a station that has provided us with our only success when the more passionate thing is to stick-and-stay. WBD have.

you going answer my questions?

[Loyal]

last time i looked moorabbin appeared a relatively 'blank canvas'.

what constitutes an elite facility is what i'm getting at. do we need a lexus cafe that no-one uses? no

do we really, really need more people at training? probably not.
do we need a big flashing sign saying 'jeldwen centre'? no.
do we need a video conference room? yes, mos def.
do we need a better gym? of course we do.
do we need an improved admin area? maybe.
do we need more pokies? i dont know.

bricks and mortar aren't expensive. its all about location at the end of the day.

you ask yourself what you really need and the answer is in front of you. we need to develop moorabbin.

these blokes want to win a flag.
why turn our backs on a station that has provided us with our only success when the more passionate thing is to stick-and-stay. WBD have.

you going answer my questions?

i will when you make sense Solar

[Solar]

last time i looked moorabbin appeared a relatively 'blank canvas'.

what constitutes an elite facility is what i'm getting at. do we need a lexus cafe that no-one uses? no

do we really, really need more people at training? probably not.
do we need a big flashing sign saying 'jeldwen centre'? no.
do we need a video conference room? yes, mos def.
do we need a better gym? of course we do.
do we need an improved admin area? maybe.
do we need more pokies? i dont know.

bricks and mortar aren't expensive. its all about location at the end of the day.

you ask yourself what you really need and the answer is in front of you. we need to develop moorabbin.

these blokes want to win a flag.
why turn our backs on a station that has provided us with our only success when the more passionate thing is to stick-and-stay. WBD have.

you going answer my questions?

i will when you make sense Solar

Questions for you

1 Who at the city of kingston would even entertain the move".

2. why are the logicistics any better at moorabin?" (apart from the oval being a better standard)

3. how would the saints make up the millions put forward by the frankston council.

4. How much will it cost to get permits, develop plans and negotiate with a building developer?

You are the one that keeps pretending to know the "facts".

I believe these are the 4 most important barriers to seeing moorabin being re-developed. Your the one that has started threads saying that we will be re-developing moorabin. I demand that you either put up or shut up!

[Loyal]

1. Who at the city of kingston would entertain the move".

the kingston council may support the move to construct and develop moorabbin. it can not be assumed that they are against the idea.

2. why are the logicistics any better at moorabin?" (apart from the oval being a better standard)

the oval is of a complete standard.
construction costs in developing moorabbin are more affordable as moorabbin is closer to the centre of melbourne. transportation of materials and construction management costs associated with moorabbin are far less than seaford.

3. how would the saints make up the millions put forward by the frankston council.

the club simply wouldn't need to as the logistical cost savings represent the proposed investment from FCC.

4. How much will it cost to get permits, develop plans and negotiate with a building developer?

not the earth. similar to what it has cost the saints of stratacorp or whomever we have used for the seaford plans.

[The Craw]

the oval is of a complete standard.
construction costs in developing moorabbin are more affordable as moorabbin is closer to the centre of melbourne. transportation of materials and construction management costs associated with moorabbin are far less than seaford.

and people are taking this peanut seriously.

[Solar]

1. Who at the city of kingston would entertain the move".

the kingston council may support the move to construct and develop moorabbin. it can not be assumed that they are against the idea.

2. why are the logicistics any better at moorabin?" (apart from the oval being a better standard)

the oval is of a complete standard.
construction costs in developing moorabbin are more affordable as moorabbin is closer to the centre of melbourne. transportation of materials and construction management costs associated with moorabbin are far less than seaford.

3. how would the saints make up the millions put forward by the frankston council.

the club simply wouldn't need to as the logistical cost savings represent the proposed investment from FCC.

4. How much will it cost to get permits, develop plans and negotiate with a building developer?

not the earth. similar to what it has cost the saints of stratacorp or whomever we have used for the seaford plans.

yep you've got me

I was conned, very funny joke

I apologise for having a reasonable debate with loyal and wasting everyone's time

Can't wait to see the new ice bath and shelter shed at moorabin circa 2010

[Loyal]

the oval is of a complete standard.
construction costs in developing moorabbin are more affordable as moorabbin is closer to the centre of melbourne. transportation of materials and construction management costs associated with moorabbin are far less than seaford.

and people are taking this peanut seriously.

there are certain costs involved in seaford that simply wouldn't be incurred on a moorabbin redevelopment eg. roadworks, extensive plumbing and electricity, sewerage, etc. etc., etc. etc.
it's a lot cheaper to redevelop moorabbin than it is to start from scratch at seaford not to mention the overall convenience gained from remaining within a site that the club has occupied for almost half a century.
simply put, seaford is a very expensive development. a significant amount of time and money can be saved from staying at moorabbin and building what we know we need rather than what we think we may need for ourselves and the wider frankston community.

[bigred]

the oval is of a complete standard.
construction costs in developing moorabbin are more affordable as moorabbin is closer to the centre of melbourne. transportation of materials and construction management costs associated with moorabbin are far less than seaford.

and people are taking this peanut seriously.

there are certain costs involved in seaford that simply wouldn't be incurred on a moorabbin redevelopment eg. roadworks, extensive plumbing and electricity, sewerage, etc. etc., etc. etc.
it's a lot cheaper to redevelop moorabbin than it is to start from scratch at seaford not to mention the overall convenience gained from remaining within a site that the club has occupied for almost half a century.
simply put, seaford is a very expensive development. a significant amount of time and money can be saved from staying at moorabbin and building what we know we need rather than what we think we may need for ourselves and the wider frankston community.

Get of the Persians.

Plumbing and electricity? What, you think that we can re-use the 49 year old copper pipe that was @ Linton street?

Surely this is a troll? No one could be that stupid.

Logistics ffs. What a load of horse apples.

Lock this thread now....

[Loyal]

just wait for the announcement bigred.
i may be on the 'persians' mate but all my dreams come true.

[Iceman234]

Surely this is a troll? No one could be that stupid.

Logistics ffs. What a load of horse apples.

Lock this thread now....

Can't believe it got this far...

[bigred]

You use your left or right hand for that?

[Loyal]

You use your left or right hand for that?

just keep trying to extrapolate some of the golden juice and see where it gets you bigred.

[Loyal]

a lot cheaper to build what we want at moorabbin than it is to do seaford.

[ausfatcat]

a lot cheaper to build what we want at moorabbin than it is to do seaford.

Why I would think it would cost a very similar amount as most of the buildings at Moorrabin are falling down and would have to be replaced anyway.




When will you get through your head the Moorrabin was going to cost 6 million and seaford will cost 1.4 million..................... Whats cheaper????

You can think it's a bad idea fine but don't ignore whats happened and why.

[Ice Wolf]

a lot cheaper to build what we want at moorabbin than it is to do seaford.

But Seaford has far more synergy

[casey scorp]

When will you get through your head the Moorrabin was going to cost 6 million and seaford will cost 1.4 million..................... Whats cheaper????

There is $500,000 of State money made available for grandstand demolition at Linton Street, and to make good that part of the site. So there would be a good flat area available on which to build a facility.

The Seaford complex is costed at $10.43 million. It wouldn’t cost more at Linton Street, and probably a bit less

There is $6 million available from the State Government & the AFL ($3.45 million from the State Government and $2.55 million from the AFL).


Seaford

$10.43 million
-$6.00 million State Government & AFL
-$3.00 million Frankston Council
$1.43 million St Kilda FC

Linton Street

$10.43 million
-$6.00 million State Government & AFL
$4.43 million

So, on the surface, it would cost more to develop at Linton Street.

However, that does not take into account the views of a substantially different Kingston Council (since the elections last year). It is highly probable that KCC would be prepared to make a substantial contribution to a complex at Linton Street.

After all, we are talking about providing a home for one of the best known sporting clubs in the nation. There are substantial benefits for having such a club domiciled in your local area – the actions of Frankston Council illustrate that. You can also refer to the FCC commissioned REMPLAN economic study which showed an economic benefit of up to $42.743 million accruing to the local economy.

So, assuming that the new look KCC was prepared to be involved (we just have to ask them to see if that would be the case), the $4.43 million cost of the Linton Street development could drop significantly.

Now comes the interesting part. At Linton Street:

• we already have a 30 year lease of a very large reserve at Linton Street (ie we totally control the site)
• it already has a top quality playing surface
• our social club is already there (albeit needing a substantial upgrade).

At Seaford:
• we will have a lease over a very small part of the overall Belvedere Park, just covering the development footprint of our building and part of the carpark
• we will have only a licence over the oval, which must be shared with the community and other users
• our social club cannot fit on the leased area.

In terms of maintenance, we maintain the Linton Street oval (about $150,000/year) whereas at Seaford Frankston Council will maintain the oval). That is a saving, for sure, but balance it against having absolute control over one of the key assets which our club needs – an oval for training. In a $30 million budget, allocating $150,000 (ie about ½% of expenditure) to control your destiny seems like a smart use of funds. Particularly as it provides the opportunity for the club to run closed training sessions (which might end up being a bit difficult at the Belvedere Park oval).

The final issue is our social club – if we stay at Moorabbin so does the social club. If we move away, there will be a battle over whether the club is honouring the terms of its lease by not operating a football club from the premises. If we don’t have a leg to stand on, and lose the lease, then we also lose the social club.

On balance, there are very real benefits in a Linton Street location. A prudent person would ask the question of KCC.