At end of 2006..a pretty good damn list or???

[bigcarl]

thomas did not believe in rebulding or even mini rebuilding. therfore the unbalance would be greater

that's not true at all. he bottomed us out and rebuilt the list virtually from scratch apart from a core group ... harvey gehrig, thommo, peckett, burke, loewe, aussie.

there was a substantial injection of youth and vigour via the national draft and it started to bear fruit in 2004.

[vacuous space]

Quite a lot of them would have been rated differently in 2006...you're only commenting with the benefit of hindsight.

In particular, Leigh Fisher is simply listed as 'GOP'. When Ross took over Fisher was 22, coming off a season in which he averaged more defensive groundballs than anyone in the game and one of the top 5 contested ball winners at the club. He's gone from averaging 17 possessions to 8 and 7 contested possessions to 3. A lot of people were very excited about Fisher headed into 07. Instead, he's now just another tagger along with Birss, Blake and Baker. Part of a long list of players who have gone backwards under Ross Lyon.

[saintwill66]

I like your assessments Saintrising and agree with most of your views. I would add another factor in the underperformance of the Saints and it is what Lyon said on Sunday, this team is far too soft, when the going gets tough only a couple of players stand up and give as good as they get.

My views on Nick Riewoldt have been published elsewhere in the past month and I have a firm view that when Ross Lyon criticises his players for being soft, the biggest softie in the team is the captain. Admire his great talents, beyond question, but he has failed to take the step up to stardom because he just does not seem capable or willing to play with real fire, a feature that his contemporaries like Jonathan Brown, Matthew Richardson, Warren Tredrea, Lance Franklin display in abundance and make them such potent weapons in attack. When Riewoldt gets the ball in or near the 50m arc he regularly looks uncertain and rarely sends it booming through the goals. If the captain fails to inspire, then we can hardly expect the team to follow his lead - or in this case they do and end up playing soft mediocre football. The same can be said of Nick dal Santo - another star-in-the-making who lets himself and the team down by being too timid. As for Kosi, I just can't understand why he doesn't play up to his best standards more often - he is arguably St Kilda's best tall but for some reason he is just not having any real impact.

I do have confidence in Ross Lyon and believe he is a quality coach, and we just have to hope he can find a way to instill some grunt, hard edge, toughness whatever you want to call it into this group of players, and do it soon because the Saints will be a lost cause if they stay the way they are now.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

If some really feel those player reviews were even close to on the money post 2006, without having played under Lyon yet I suggest they go back and watch some tape from the 2nd half of '06.

That team won 14 games after an insipid start, losing Hayes in career best form, and leaving winnable games on the table. They should have won the final against Melbourne, but gambled with their selections and lost when some couldn't make it through the game. They deserve far more respect than they recieve on here, and given what's happened since, it surely is more likely we underrated our ex-coach than anything else to explain what's happened since.

[meher baba]

Like plugger66, I am just wondering when we are going to stop seeing thread after thread started which full of the same old rubbish about the list and is simply trying to explain why GT was a failure and RL somehow isn't.

Try comparing our 2006 list with that of Geelong in that same year, and anybody would undoubtedly end up rating the Geelong list much, much higher. And yet, in 2006, we finished well ahead of Geelong on the table, beat them soundly in our second game and only lost the first one because Hamill had a moment of madness which effectively ended his career and because Geelong flooded us to death.

Likewise, the Swans list of 2006 wouldn't match up to either our list or Geelong's list in that year, and yet they were reigning premiers and made the GF again.

What does this show? That the quality of lists on paper is not the be all and end all of anything, and that nobody is ever going to agree on the question of quality anyway.

For instance, sRr has rated Powell and Thommo as being past it, whereas other recent list-obsessed posters have pointed to their absence as being one of the main reasons that we are going worse under Lyon than under GT.

[asiu]

...he bottomed us out

what about tim and the million dollar golfer

[saintsRrising]

Sr you just got it so wrong in 2006.

.

Ok...so which players do you rate differently?

Quite a lot of them would have been rated differently in 2006...you're only commenting with the benefit of hindsight.

1/ The OP...was about the list that RL was given at the end of 2006. So why would hindsight be irrelevant?????

A number of posters are bagging him for not doing better with the best list in the competition..whereas as I showed in the OP the list was not as good as many make out.


2/....now as to you comment that I am only commenting with the benefit of hindsight....well no you are not correct as my rating was essentially the same back then..and earlier in this string I reproduced part ofa psot I wrote on list management BEFORE Lyon was made coach. However even if I was wrong about the list back then....it would still not change the fact about how gooda list of players that Lyon was actually given.

[plugger66]

Sr you just got it so wrong in 2006.

.

Ok...so which players do you rate differently?

Quite a lot of them would have been rated differently in 2006...you're only commenting with the benefit of hindsight.

1/ The OP...was about the list that RL was given at the end of 2006. So why would hindsight be irrelevant?????

A number of posters are bagging him for not doing better with the best list in the competition..whereas as I showed in the OP the list was not as good as many make out.


2/....now as to you comment that I am only commenting with the benefit of hindsight....well no you are not correct as my rating was essentially the same back then..and earlier in this string I reproduced part ofa psot I wrote on list management BEFORE Lyon was made coach. However even if I was wrong about the list back then....it would still not change the fact about how gooda list of players that Lyon was actually given.

One simple question then. How did we win 14 games with all the injuries we had back then with that list.

[saintsRrising]

Quite a lot of them would have been rated differently in 2006...you're only commenting with the benefit of hindsight.

In particular, Leigh Fisher is simply listed as 'GOP'. When Ross took over Fisher was 22, coming off a season in which he averaged more defensive groundballs than anyone in the game and one of the top 5 contested ball winners at the club. He's gone from averaging 17 possessions to 8 and 7 contested possessions to 3. A lot of people were very excited about Fisher headed into 07. Instead, he's now just another tagger along with Birss, Blake and Baker. Part of a long list of players who have gone backwards under Ross Lyon.

Ta.....so out of a list of 40 odd....that is your only real disagreance???

[degruch]

Oh yeah, I see your point, but what you've written doesn't really represent how those players were looked on in 2006, it how their 2006 performances looked knowing what has happened to them since...Back to the Future style. Fraser Gehrig, one year left...possibly...could have been 4 good years ala Richo.

Anyays, we all know (even the RL critics) that the current coach didn't really inherit the marvellous glowing list everyone thought he had...I bet Geelong's list, if you went back in time, looked worse though...so it just goes to show you really can't tell.

However, Collingwood were just fractionally less lame than us in Round 8, add an improved tacle rate and the appeared spectacular in Round 9. Youan't tell frm week to week either.

[saintsRrising]

If some really feel those player reviews were even close to on the money post 2006, without having played under Lyon yet I suggest they go back and watch some tape from the 2nd half of '06.

That team won 14 games after an insipid start, losing Hayes in career best form, and leaving winnable games on the table. They should have won the final against Melbourne, but gambled with their selections and lost when some couldn't make it through the game. They deserve far more respect than they recieve on here, and given what's happened since, it surely is more likely we underrated our ex-coach than anything else to explain what's happened since.

I think BAM! that you are taking the ratings the wrong way...

They are not a rating of their 2006 season...but are a rating of where they were at at the end of 2006.

Thommo, Voss, Powell, Pecket for example all had useful seasons in 2006....but at the end of 2006 I am afraid that all were past it.

This does not denigrate their 2006 season or previous years....but rates them or not in terms of going forward into 2007.

[Shaggy]

GT was a good motivator....but a lousy builder.

We all know that is what you believe which is why you started this thread .

You think GT was a lousy builder. I think the opposite.

GT built a game plan around the players he had and most of them thrived in that environment. RL to-date hasn't. Thats what I consider is the difference between manufacturing and corporate finance.

Regardless looking at a list 2 years ago and progress since proves neither your or my point.

But it does show the lack of progress we have made with the list since 2006. Most of the footballers played their best footy under GT compared to RL.

Its time RL started to create some winners . He has done a terrible job to-date at getting the best out of the players he inherited.

[saintsRrising]

. Thats what I consider is the difference between manufacturing and corporate finance.

.

And the relevance is....

Do you have a chip on your shoulder about people that make things...or about people that finance things?

[Solar]

If some really feel those player reviews were even close to on the money post 2006, without having played under Lyon yet I suggest they go back and watch some tape from the 2nd half of '06.

That team won 14 games after an insipid start, losing Hayes in career best form, and leaving winnable games on the table. They should have won the final against Melbourne, but gambled with their selections and lost when some couldn't make it through the game. They deserve far more respect than they recieve on here, and given what's happened since, it surely is more likely we underrated our ex-coach than anything else to explain what's happened since.

I think BAM! that you are taking the ratings the wrong way...

They are not a rating of their 2006 season...but are a rating of where they were at at the end of 2006.

Thommo, Voss, Powell, Pecket for example all had useful seasons in 2006....but at the end of 2006 I am afraid that all were past it.

This does not denigrate their 2006 season or previous years....but rates them or not in terms of going forward into 2007.

how is it that many of the younger players in 2006 are now in their "prime" years and yet are playing at levels below their 2006 form?

ie: gram, fish. roo, kosi, xavier, ball, joey

Bam!! in 2006 we were pecentage out of the top 4 (in fact those lovely 2 points the AFL stole would have put us nicely in the top 4 and a second chance).... then we went on to lose 6 players in that final, yet was only overrun in the final quarter. This was with harvey playing lame at full forward. Yes they took a few in under injury clouds but we still lost the likes of X and harvey to new injuries during that game. Those two points got freo the double chance, a home semi against a lucky melbourne and a prelim result.

Do you really think that they would have sacked GT if he had got an injured list to another semi or prelim??

Anyway, this is all history I guess, but some really do forget certain facts about the past.

[vacuous space]

Ta.....so out of a list of 40 odd....that is your only real disagreance???

I disagree with a few of them, Fisher being the most glaring example. Mostly though, I think that our list then was good enough to win games and our list now is good enough to win games. We had some quality players at the top end and enough depth to cover for injuries in 06, as I believe we do now. It's up to the coach to get the most out of the list. I think GT could have done better with what he had in 06, and I believe RL should be doing better with what he has in 08.

[saintsRrising]

Ta.....so out of a list of 40 odd....that is your only real disagreance???

I disagree with a few of them, Fisher being the most glaring example. Mostly though, I think that our list then was good enough to win games and our list now is good enough to win games. We had some quality players at the top end and enough depth to cover for injuries in 06, as I believe we do now. It's up to the coach to get the most out of the list. I think GT could have done better with what he had in 06, and I believe RL should be doing better with what he has in 08.

And I too believe RL should be doing better with what he has in 08.

[saintsRrising]

Ok...just a current update:

Dal Santo Potential Top 10 in the AFL player who unfortunately had little defensive side to his game. Is now looking to be the complete elite mid and is working a lot harder. If he keeps up his early season form he may rank in that Top 10!!!!

Blake GOP with a brilliant workrate, fantastic endurance and leap but with poor decision making and ordinary skills. Has improved markedly in terms of skills and decision-making. Is now a reliable key defender.

Ackland Poor ruckman Poor ruckman. Went on to an illustious career at the Blues...not!!!

Rix

McGough Dud. Could win ball but with dreadful skills and very slow.

Maguire Capable to good CHB. has aggression that others lack. Injury has restricted him.


McQualter Struggling young player. Had had a poor year averaging 11 disposals and never more than 16. was hardly an emerging mid. Has improved and late in 2008 has become a useful player. However for a spot in the 22 he is competing with X, Eddy, Geary, Jones and Armo. Competition will be fierce as the season progresses.


Gwilt Very raw player who had done very little. Still needs to improve..but has looked cpable in his last two games. Lyon seems to want to exploit his good long-kicking and is using him asa go to player.


Raymond Terrible player. You wonder why he was ever drafted.


Harvey Still a star, but no the superstar that he was. Sad to lose him. So far Ray as a sweeper is provinga cpable replacement (at least for the Harvey of latter years)


Sweeney Dud

Schawrze Not good enough

Milne Good Still good and is now a more complete player.

Peckett Past it

Hamill Past it due to an injury ravaged body.

X Clarke OK. Very good in flashes, but does not win enough ball often enough to be a star. Still injury prone...but was looking good in 2008 when not injured.


R Clarke Not delivering. Has been injury prone and while has some talent also has many flaws. Bloomed late in 2008 and at last looked the goods. Unfortunately soft tissue injury struck again in 2009.


Thompson Past it

Watts Not good enough. Big slow marking forward recruited when that species was being outmoded

L Fisher GOP


Hayes Star in his prime


Hudghton Star in last years

Gehrig Star with 1 year left

Baker Very good tagger when rules were to be tightened. Missed him badly in 2008.. The team just looks much better in 2009 with him back playing well.

Montagna Promising mid The promise is now being delivered.

Powell Past it


Gilbert Raw with promise The promise is now being delivered. He and Sam Fisher could see us with two elite backmen for years to come.

Murray Dud

Ferguson Injury prone

Fiora Highly skilled but with poor workrate

Koschitze Great first year for a recruit, but apart from that only had a stellar 5 games in 60 odd games. touted as a star but really is just good to average player. Has started 2009 very well and is holding down a key forward spot very well.

Brooks Had talent, but no heart.

S Fisher Great player on the rise... Still rising..but is now a true elite.

Riewoldt Genuine star. Still a genuine star...but basically did not have a pre-season..and so his output is not the elite it ca be, and will be. Now that Kosi is firing....Roo will no doubt run amok when fully fit.


Voss The type of player any coach loves to have. But unfortunately past his best.

Ball Injury cruelled player who would be a star if he was not injury restricted. In 2009 he looks at last to have overcome his injury problems. Still not kicking it 50m..but is humming along.


Gram Had just had a stellar year. Has great pace and run, but no defensive skills. Is a booming kick but accuracy is below average. Opposition coaches about to exploit his weaknesses. Opposition coaches are still denying him the space to run into...and his kicking is still inaccurate..but remains a useful player. If he could just get on top of his footskills he could be a hugely damaging running receiver in our midfield group.


Powell Past it.

Goddard Was just starting to bloom as a very good defender...and possibly star quality. 2009 will be his year...and will finish it as an elite player....a versatile elite who can play back setting up play...on the ball..or up forward. A great tool for the coach to have.

[Teflon]

GT was a good motivator....but a lousy builder.

We all know that is what you believe which is why you started this thread .

You think GT was a lousy builder. I think the opposite.

GT built a game plan around the players he had and most of them thrived in that environment. RL to-date hasn't. Thats what I consider is the difference between manufacturing and corporate finance.

Regardless looking at a list 2 years ago and progress since proves neither your or my point.

But it does show the lack of progress we have made with the list since 2006. Most of the footballers played their best footy under GT compared to RL.

Its time RL started to create some winners . He has done a terrible job to-date at getting the best out of the players he inherited.

and shaggys dislike for Lyon and love for all things Thomas has just become a wholelot clearer...

Good thread SR - No, great thread.

[Foz]

Indeed great thread.

I'm pretty sure your assumptions on most players were accurate - I noted the ones you called ordinary didnt go on and do much. What stood out was the gulf between the top 10 at the club and the next batch of 10 players. Premiership teams run deep.

I was waiting for the difference between 2006 & 2009 list...DEPTH ! 23 players used in 3 games, a top 5 draft pick in X that can't break into the team after many BOG's. Goose not being rushed back like he was after he broke his leg.

RL brings Patience (which can test any mere mortal) and a refinement of the list. From mid last year we are 11 from 14 in H&A and 12 from 17 inc finals. We needed a lead up forward so we got a couple, a defensive speedy midfielder - so we took one, young backs etc. The attitide that some of the 2006 batch weren't going to take us places, were ok players, but couldn't take us the next step was a brave reality IMO.

[saintly]

Ok...just a current update:

Dal Santo Potential Top 10 in the AFL player who unfortunately had little defensive side to his game. Is now looking to be the complete elite mid and is working a lot harder. If he keeps up his early season form he may rank in that Top 10!!!!

Blake GOP with a brilliant workrate, fantastic endurance and leap but with poor decision making and ordinary skills. Has improved markedly in terms of skills and decision-making. Is now a reliable key defender.

Ackland Poor ruckman Poor ruckman. Went on to an illustious career at the Blues...not!!!

Rix

McGough Dud. Could win ball but with dreadful skills and very slow.

Maguire Capable to good CHB. has aggression that others lack. Injury has restricted him.


McQualter Struggling young player. Had had a poor year averaging 11 disposals and never more than 16. was hardly an emerging mid. Has improved and late in 2008 has become a useful player. However for a spot in the 22 he is competing with X, Eddy, Geary, Jones and Armo. Competition will be fierce as the season progresses.


Gwilt Very raw player who had done very little. Still needs to improve..but has looked cpable in his last two games. Lyon seems to want to exploit his good long-kicking and is using him asa go to player.


Raymond Terrible player. You wonder why he was ever drafted.


Harvey Still a star, but no the superstar that he was. Sad to lose him. So far Ray as a sweeper is provinga cpable replacement (at least for the Harvey of latter years)


Sweeney Dud

Schawrze Not good enough

Milne Good Still good and is now a more complete player.

Peckett Past it

Hamill Past it due to an injury ravaged body.

X Clarke OK. Very good in flashes, but does not win enough ball often enough to be a star. Still injury prone...but was looking good in 2008 when not injured.


R Clarke Not delivering. Has been injury prone and while has some talent also has many flaws. Bloomed late in 2008 and at last looked the goods. Unfortunately soft tissue injury struck again in 2009.


Thompson Past it

Watts Not good enough. Big slow marking forward recruited when that species was being outmoded

L Fisher GOP


Hayes Star in his prime


Hudghton Star in last years

Gehrig Star with 1 year left

Baker Very good tagger when rules were to be tightened. Missed him badly in 2008.. The team just looks much better in 2009 with him back playing well.

Montagna Promising mid The promise is now being delivered.

Powell Past it


Gilbert Raw with promise The promise is now being delivered. He and Sam Fisher could see us with two elite backmen for years to come.

Murray Dud

Ferguson Injury prone

Fiora Highly skilled but with poor workrate

Koschitze Great first year for a recruit, but apart from that only had a stellar 5 games in 60 odd games. touted as a star but really is just good to average player. Has started 2009 very well and is holding down a key forward spot very well.

Brooks Had talent, but no heart.

S Fisher Great player on the rise... Still rising..but is now a true elite.

Riewoldt Genuine star. Still a genuine star...but basically did not have a pre-season..and so his output is not the elite it ca be, and will be. Now that Kosi is firing....Roo will no doubt run amok when fully fit.


Voss The type of player any coach loves to have. But unfortunately past his best.

Ball Injury cruelled player who would be a star if he was not injury restricted. In 2009 he looks at last to have overcome his injury problems. Still not kicking it 50m..but is humming along.


Gram Had just had a stellar year. Has great pace and run, but no defensive skills. Is a booming kick but accuracy is below average. Opposition coaches about to exploit his weaknesses. Opposition coaches are still denying him the space to run into...and his kicking is still inaccurate..but remains a useful player. If he could just get on top of his footskills he could be a hugely damaging running receiver in our midfield group.


Powell Past it.

Goddard Was just starting to bloom as a very good defender...and possibly star quality. 2009 will be his year...and will finish it as an elite player....a versatile elite who can play back setting up play...on the ball..or up forward. A great tool for the coach to have.

you should be adding in the new players and comparing them with the likes of ackland, mcgough, sweeny etc

[rodgerfox]

I think this thread proves you were very wrong.

[ace]

Look at it from another perspective - rate the players drafted or received via a trade since the end of 2004.

End of 2004
McQualter
Ackland
McGough
Gwilt
Fiora (trade)
Mullins
McDonnell

End of 2005
Watts (trade)
Gilbert
Rix
Raymond
Sweeney
Corr
Pfitzner (re rookied)

End of 2006
Armitage
Howard
Gardiner (trade)
Allen
Birss (trade)
Ferguson (re drafted)
Clarke Matthew (pre season)
Jones
Van Rheenen
Eddy
Wall
Geary
Attard (rookied)

End 2007
McEvoy
Schneider (trade)
Dempster (trade)
Steven
Gehrig (redrafted)
Connors
King (trade)
Gardiner (trade)
Chivers
Miles
McQualter (rookied)
Haretuku

End of 2008
Lynch
Ray (trade)
Stanley
Heyne
Smith
Cahill
Begley
Dawson
Simpkin
Howard (rookied)
Gaertner
Tungatalum
McGarry
McGrath

I have known children's birthday parties to have a better strike rate pinning the tail on the donkey than St Kilda's recruitment department. (Stevie Baker must have seen it too)

Am I the only one who heard the commentators point out that the team that played last Saturday and will tomorrow only had ONE PLAYER YOUNGER THAN 22. = Geary

Except for hit and miss with trades, the recruitment department 2004 - 2007 has been a disaster.

Both Thomas and Lyon adopted the approach that when you employ people to do a job you let them do it.
Unfortunately the job was done very poorly, hence the overhaul of recruitment during 2008.

The problems in the recruitment department were masked by the early draft picks at the end of 2000, 2001, 2002 seasons.
Even the donkey could have picked good players with picks 1, 2 or 3 but before that selections at the end of 1999 were pathetic
Beetham
Blake
Plapp (trade)
Pitts
Delaney
Campbell
Monkhorst
Charles

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Am I the only one who heard the commentators point out that the team that played last Saturday and will tomorrow only had ONE PLAYER YOUNGER THAN 22. = Geary

Except for hit and miss with trades, the recruitment department 2004 - 2007 has been a disaster.

I would have thought one of the takeaways from the Eagles game was the way that youth gets overrated in the AFL. The Saints physically smashed the young Eagles, and our current best 22 will give the same issues to all but the most physical teams - and the young kids just won't have the bodies.

AFL is a game of professional athletes, and strong bodies are a massive advantage.

Note that while St Kilda did this, we had 1 players over 30 on the field:King (though Gardiner is less than month from 30). As well as Gardiner, we had Hayes and Baker over 27, and listwise we've got Hudghton (33) on the sidelines.

everyone else is 26 or under.

Just for contrast, the Eagles, in year 2 of a rebuild, had Cox, Embley, Fletcher, Glass, and Stenglein on the field at 27 or older. While none are 30, that says to me that St Kilda has less mid term risk around aging players than one of the rebuilding teams of the comp.

No doubt we'll blood and get some games into other players over the course of the year - including young guys. if we're fielding 21 of 22 between 22 and 26 on a regular basis though, that's a fantastic position to be in, there's no need to gift spots to anyone who hasn't earned one. It will make recruiting look bad, as the kids are selected on a needs basis only, and not a development one - this is a hard team to crack. but as a final point, note this:

There was at least one player from the 2004-2006 drafts on the field for each game rounds 1-3 this year.

We may not be the powerhouse recruiters of the comp (and of course should always be looking to improve here), however the regular bashing the St Kilda recruiters receive is unfounded. They've been playing "pin the tail on the baby mouse" and not gone entirely begging.

[rodgerfox]

The first month of this season has shown quite clearly how good the list was that Lyon took over.

As I said at the time, and it's in this thread I think somewhere, the core was so talented that although we'd go through a mini-rebuild, we'd still be good enough to play finals.

The only thing that was out of balance, was the blend of young, prime and senior players.

In 03-06, I felt we had few 'prime' players. Certainly very few that were on the park. We had a good layer of senior players.
Our core group were kids. Bally, Dal, Roo, Kosi, BJ etc.
You don't win flags when your core are kids.

You win flags when your core are 'prime' (ie. 22-26 with 100-150 games under your belt).

Now, our core is prime, and we have a very good layer of senior players. We still lack in the kids, but our core is deep.

I felt that during the transition period while our kids became our prime, and our prime players became our senior players, we wouldn't threaten for a flag.

It would be 3-4 years before the balance was there when our core was prime, guys like Max, Lenny, Milne and Bakes made up our senior players, and we had a few good kids on the list too.

That's where we are now. We still don't have the kids, but our core group of players are in their prime, and our senior players are very good.


If Thomas was still coach, the same thing would have applied. What worried me about changing coach at the time the club did, was that a new coach implementing new ideas and strategies, would potentially extend this transitional period of our list beyond that 3-4 year mark, meaning we may miss the boat when our list would be ideally balanced. I believe 2007 was the last chance we had to win a flag, before the inevitible mini-rebuild happened. That's why I felt changing coach at that time was foolish.

I may be wrong, because this year we're fit and healthy and the core of the list is prime and playing well.
The senior guys on the list are fit and playing well. Lyon has added to the senior side of the list also. It's pretty deep with King and Gardiner aswell.

I was right about the 3-4 years before we'd be contenders again, but I may have been wrong about the timeframe for the new coach to get things settled again.

One thing that has eased the pain of a mini-rebuild, and prevented us going into a full rebuild (which have written us off for another 10 years) is that Lyon held his nerve with our star players.

He didn't panic that we were too slow. He didn't panic that we had holes everywhere, he didn't panic about much to do with our core players.

He kept them, and built around them. He needs credit for that. He knew the list he got was very, very good. He stuck to it and it's paying dividends.

[saintsRrising]

I think this thread proves you were very wrong.

Why?

What I see if a good list that has been made better...in structure and quality.

What I also see is if you look beyond the 22 that we have a lot more players emerging. That is that the TOTAL list is much better now than back then.

Back then our next wave of players coming through looked very bleek.

Now there is agood wave of players with most positions covered.

McEvoy and others to replace King and Gardiner

Choo Choo and Heyne to replace Milne and Schneider..

Allen, Lynch and others to provide other options to Roo and Kosi..

Zac to replace Max at FB in 2010.

Eljay, Steven, Armo, Geary, Eddy to all provide future options in our midfield.

Now not all of the above will make it...but IMO we now have a much better group of emerging players than we had at the end of 2006.

we have not had the luxury of very low draft picks to work with...but the list is now getter better (in quality and structure) each year....not worse.