Are we ALL starting to warm to Lyon yet?

[rodgerfox]

Also Blake has been developed into a reliable key defensive option. He and Zac keeps Sam Fisher free...which greatly improves our team structure.

And this relates to Lyon's incredible list turnover how exactly?

We have emerging rucks....mids...forwards.....and with Zac a possible future ke defender

Of course we do - we've had half a dozen retirees and some duds cut from our list.
What do you think would have happened under a different coach?? Do you think they would have left those spots on the list vacant?

PS....on the injury front...years of bungling and mis-management are not fixed overnight.

We are benefitting now injury wise by discarding the mistakes of the GT years in player conditioning and management where we were just about the worst in the AFL.

Again, I'm unsure how this relates to Lyon's huge list turnover.

[joffaboy]

8 new players and 7 players from other clubs have been introduced into the seniors in the past 2 seasons.

That is pretty substantial turnover of players in the top 22.

I cant see where the argument is.

[rodgerfox]

8 new players and 7 players from other clubs have been introduced into the seniors in the past 2 seasons.

That is pretty substantial turnover of players in the top 22.

I cant see where the argument is.

The only argument would be, as to what impact that has actually had on the team (ie. take out the recruits that Lyon has brought in and replace them with 7 other depth players and would we be any different?)

And also, whether or not the large majority of that turnover is simply natural attrition and not a brilliant tactical move by Lyon.

At this stage, the rucks clearly is a great move - however until they're both still on the park and contributing in September, the same question marks remain as to how great a move that was.


My view is, that the reason we're playing well now is our good players are playing well and we're fit.

Not a sculpting of our list like SrR and some others are claiming.

[joffaboy]

My view is, that the reason we're playing well now is our good players are playing well and we're fit.

Not a sculpting of our list like SrR and some others are claiming.

It makes a huge difference to have a fully fit list. Having Gardiner and Ball and Kosi having full preseasons is so invaluable.

I think that some of the players Lyon has gone for compliment the playing style - and how foolish would he be not to get those sort of player - but he also recruited attacking "outside" players like Ray and Schneider who you wouldn't say are purely defensive players.

No it is a combination of reasons. As you say natural attrition - good recruiting - fit list - 3rd season getting used to the gameplan and playing style.

It can never be just one reason. The combination has to be correct as it was at the end of 2003 and most of 2004.

I cant see how Lyon can take all the credit (or all the critisism when things go wrong) and vica versa for GT.

Things are never that simple.

[Saints43]

THE BEST LIST IN 20 YEARS? ...whooaa down there boy...that would indicate that Thomas's failings even more so for me....

I even capitalised it for you:

Just accept that RL walked into THE BEST LIST A NEW COACH HAS HAD IN HIS FIRST SEASON FOR 20 YEARS. It's not having a go at him it's just a fact. I don't know why it bothers you so much.

Please get someone to read the sentence to you and then point out a better list that a first year coach has been given to work with in the last twenty years or concede the point.

[matrix]

[Mr Magic]

THE BEST LIST IN 20 YEARS? ...whooaa down there boy...that would indicate that Thomas's failings even more so for me....

I even capitalised it for you:

Just accept that RL walked into THE BEST LIST A NEW COACH HAS HAD IN HIS FIRST SEASON FOR 20 YEARS. It's not having a go at him it's just a fact. I don't know why it bothers you so much.

Please get someone to read the sentence to you and then point out a better list that a first year coach has been given to work with in the last twenty years or concede the point.

How was the WCE list John Worsfold 'walked' into in 2002?
Or the Sydney list when Roos was annointed?

And how do you determine the merit of a list at a point in time (2007).
By the players who were at their peak?
By the players who were yet to peak?
By the players who were past their peak/

Or just by the names on the list?

[rexy]

Teflon

I think your point was somewhat similar to mine?????? Although I am a bit confused now.

I dont think it was a contradiction at all, I beleive and I hope that all involved would have been disappointed with the 07 season, our list at the time whilst not perfect (which Im sure I never even suggested) was good enough to play finals, but due to Lyon being new and trying to find his feet and the players inability to adapt to a slightly different style of play, we did not play finals. I thought that was unacceptable and was disappointed, not the end of the world though and actually went into 08 confident that whilst we had missed September we were actually better placed to improve due to some of the pain that we had endured.

I was right and we have improved and i stick by my summation that RL has us better placed than his predecessor did but his results were disappointing in his first season in particular.

At the end of the day you can have the best laid plans and the best structures and the best list management, but on any given day you have to adapt to the opposition and the circumstances you are in, this is where RL has probably improved and developed most. There was games in 07 that we lost trying to play our new style of football that we could have snatched if we had just gone out and attacked after half time. IMO of course.

[saintsRrising]

But you add both Clarkes, Max and Goose back in, and suddenly the horrible list that Lyon inherited doesn't that look that much different to what's on the park now.

.

Rodger...can you find ONE post by me where I stated that Lyon inherited a horrible list?

No...but that does stop you actively pretending that I have.

For others, for I understand that RF will just continue to make up things what I said back then was:

* We had a good list going backwards (which was of great to concern to me and why I was posting on List mangement BEFORE GT was given the heave-ho)...and a list where serious flaws had developed. The trend was that we were becoming less competitive.That is that Lyon inherited quitea good list...but one that hada number of major aspects that needed to be improved if we wanted to bea genuine premiership threat.


* That GT's insistence on being responsible for player conditioning and fitness management clearly was not working. Any club can have a bad year...but under GT every year was a bad year in this regard relative to the other AFL clubs which indicated to me at least that this needed to be changed.

* That the rookie system under GT was under-utilised and under-coached. this was denying the saints new talent.

* That we needed a full-time coach rather than a part-time one who was a wannabe football manager (players contracts, media requests, player conditioning etc etc). GT refusing to have the club was just plain stupid.

* That strategy wise GT had failed to evolve with changes in the game. His anti-flood views proving him to be a dinosaur in his thinking.


Lyon is a a good coach because:

* He is very good strategy wise AND keeps evolving. He is not stagnant in his thinking.

* He is actively building a team and clearly is going about assembling a team with the missing links filled him. Not for him is it enough to say "but we tried to get Cox"...he goes out and gets the players we need in good value trades.

* He is content to stick to be coaching. On recognising that the club's player conditioning was in the dark ages compared to the Swans...he just demanded that the Club rectify it...rather than be content with the status-quo...or dabble in things that he was not equipped too.


Football Clubs keep evolving....AFL football keeps evolving...

GT was trying to build a one-man run club...where naturally he believed that GT was that one-man.

What was required was a modern football department....with a Head Coach capable of keeping up with an evolving game...both strategy-wise and list wise.

[saintsRrising]

, but I really think you and others tried so hard to hang your hat on the 'horrible list thing' that doesn't really exist.

.

Did I Rodge???

This is actually what I posted on this forum back in 2006.

List Management, Which way forward?
by SaintsRrising

Status:
In terms of building the perfect premiership team our needs are:
• True tall tap ruckman
• Two more quick and skilled midfielders
• One Gorilla full back.


There is a high benchmark at present and the Saints need to improve in order to exceed it.

Raw potential:

Talking Windows I think we have seen the first window of a premiership for the Saints has closed . . . i.e. the one that would have been led by our older core of players. Peckett, Powell and Aussie are now gone . . .

Our older guard players that are now remaining will be support players rather than the core that we win with.

However our second window of opportunity is fortunately already opening for us . . . and if a lot goes right it may even snag us a flag in 2007 which would be great for Banger.

etc etc



And just to show that Rodge would seem to also have disagreed with himself about me stating that we had a horrible list....here is Rodge agreeing with my past assessment:

. Our list was fine.

....but in decline....and past its best....and requiring work to become again a true contender.

IMO of course.

I agree with you.

I also said this at the time of the sacking.

I felt 2007 was our last true hope with the list, before a mini-rebuild would be required.

'Mini-rebuild', because we would lose some veterans, and didn't have many kids coming through. Our core was good enough to get us into the 8 comfortably, but I doubted we'd be a contender seriously for another 1-2 years.

By changing coach however prior to this 'mini-rebuild', it would take longer (for reasons I've explained 1000 times).

Lyon was given a very, very good list. There was natural 'decline' in terms of the balance of it. Not in terms of the wuality of talent - that's perhaps where you and I disagree. But in terms of the theory of....

.

See the thing is my views, and what I have written, have been consistent over the years.

What has changed is what Rodger states that I have said or posted....and his inability to often be accurate about what I have posted.

[St Fidelius]

saintsRrising....

I think your last post is about blaming GT, are you aware that his hands were tied in football expenditure???


Would that be a reason for rookies??

Was it not in GT reign that the Club recruited Craig Starcevich as our conditioning coach? To mention that ...

That GT's insistence on being responsible for player conditioning and fitness management clearly was not working.

To me is wrong.

Starcevich is one of the best going around and for personal reasons left the Club to return to Queensland, where he is now joined A-league team Queensland Roar as strength and conditioning coach.

GT was good for the Club, but had his hands tied RL will become a better coach

[saintsRrising]

saintsRrising....

I think your last post is about blaming GT, are you aware that his hands were tied in football expenditure???

Are you aware then that the Club wanted to hire Drain the year before GT was terminated?

That GT refused.

Drain I believe would have been paid a salary.

[saintsRrising]

Would that be a reason for rookies??

If you have a look you will actually see that the Saints had rookies most years...but gained scant benefit apart from Milne.

Under GT the relationship with GT was sour. Hardly a good vehicle to develop young players and rookies.

As soon as he departed the bad blood stopped and the VFL becamea fertile place to develop ur fringe players.

[St Fidelius]

saintsRrising....

I think your last post is about blaming GT, are you aware that his hands were tied in football expenditure???

Are you aware then that the Club wanted to hire Drain the year before GT was terminated?

That GT refused.

Drain I believe would have been paid a salary.

You still have not addressed my points...

I believe his hands were tied with football expenditure...

Yes, he had faults much like anyone else...

He was good with the players and had a bond with a few, but on match day I did find him lacking.

I think he was the first to introduce overseas camps to create a bond between the players and the coach and although we have ceased this other clubs continue to do this.

I think he was the first to introduce a leadership group and I believe most clubs do this now.

but to say this....

That GT's insistence on being responsible for player conditioning and fitness management clearly was not working

Is wrong when under GT's reign the Club secured Craig Starcevich.

Anyway, as I said before. GT did a lot of good and I believe that RL will do even better (as a match day coach)

[saintsRrising]

I think he was the first to introduce a leadership group and I believe most clubs do this now.

Try Alves in 1997 who invited in the guy that now runs Leading Teams that most AFL Clubs use.

[saintsRrising]

Is wrong when under GT's reign the Club secured Craig Starcevich.

who never moved to Melbourne.

So like Cox...yes he would have been a good catch.

But like Cox we never really aquired him.


I prefer our current coach where it is what is done....rather than what was "gunna" be done.

[saintsRrising]

I think he was the first to introduce overseas camps to create a bond between the players and the coach and although we have ceased this other clubs continue to do this.

I think very well cashed up clubs continue to do it...

Now for me....what would I go for...two weeks in South Africa......or a full year of an expanded player conditioning and fitness management department.

mmm 2 weeks...or 52 weeks????


I know what I prefer.


Anyway as I have often said yes GT did some good. But overall he was not up to it.

[St Fidelius]

I think he was the first to introduce overseas camps to create a bond between the players and the coach and although we have ceased this other clubs continue to do this.

I think very well cashed up clubs continue to do it...

Now for me....what would I go for...two weeks in South Africa......or a full year of an expanded player conditioning and fitness management department.

mmm 2 weeks...or 52 weeks????


I know what I prefer.


Anyway as I have often said yes GT did some good. But overall he was not up to it.

Agreed that he did some good but was not good at handling the "flood" and other areas in his match day.

But yes, in general he did some good and turned the Club around.

Also having John Beverage as the sole person on draft day as the decision maker was not good, don't get me wrong, I have known JB since I was just 11 years old. He was my coach for a few years (up to under 16s), but to have a person in his 70s or very late 60s to decide just who to select, was wrong.

The Club needs to spend more money in that area and have good spotters in every state IMO

[Shaggy]

RL is now getting the best out of all the players and the players who should be improving are.

That is all a coach should be expected to achieve.

IMO GT achieved same.

Subject to injuries we should win the flag this year. 18 of our top 27 were there in 2005 when we only lost IMO due to injuries. The majority are now 3 years more mature physically and have seasoned finals experience which they didn't in 2005 when they were kids.

We are ready. RL has got them firing and time to take the lid off (but RL really was crap in 2007 which I am sure he will admit to when we win the flag but not before).

[Teflon]

RL is now getting the best out of all the players and the players who should be improving are.

That is all a coach should be expected to achieve.

IMO GT achieved same.

Subject to injuries we should win the flag this year. 18 of our top 27 were there in 2005 when we only lost IMO due to injuries. The majority are now 3 years more mature physically and have seasoned finals experience which they didn't in 2005 when they were kids.

We are ready. RL has got them firing and time to take the lid off (but RL really was crap in 2007 which I am sure he will admit to when we win the flag but not before).

Staggers me......Lyons good now...cause we are playing well now. Lyon was cr@p in 07 cause we missed finals by half a game in his first year.

Odd.

Not 1 mention of player performance/injuries (that GT gets the luxury of every discussion)...yet when things go wrong its ALL Ross Lyon not getting the best out of a super list.

Im sure Lyon willadmit hes a better coach in 09 than 07. Where's the news story in that?

[Teflon]

THE BEST LIST IN 20 YEARS? ...whooaa down there boy...that would indicate that Thomas's failings even more so for me....

I even capitalised it for you:

Just accept that RL walked into THE BEST LIST A NEW COACH HAS HAD IN HIS FIRST SEASON FOR 20 YEARS. It's not having a go at him it's just a fact. I don't know why it bothers you so much.

Please get someone to read the sentence to you and then point out a better list that a first year coach has been given to work with in the last twenty years or concede the point.

How was the WCE list John Worsfold 'walked' into in 2002?
Or the Sydney list when Roos was annointed?

And how do you determine the merit of a list at a point in time (2007).
By the players who were at their peak?
By the players who were yet to peak?
By the players who were past their peak/

Or just by the names on the list?

Thank you Magic.

I cant be stuffed explaining to those who merely wanna play the man and not seriously discuss the topic.

I believe you'll be conceding now 43?

All is good..

[Teflon]

We don't look slow now. We don't have gaping holes everywhere.

The reality is that we did have a good list, and still do. The difference now is that they're fit and playing well.

But you were the "father" the original author of "saints will be rebuilding in 2 years" after GT.....

You were the doomsayer on Lyons appointment that we needed an overhaul badly......that we were destined for mediocrity for years....(Its my favorite SS post I memorised it I loved it so.... )

Fast forward to now....and the "list"is still super and never had a problem......... ......

what an odd little man/? you are.

Ofcourse you agree with Saints 43....your one and the same.......still 2 personalities but just as confused....

At least all on this site now know any views you have are geared toward generating personal attention and not genuinely about discussing the topic. Your this sites version of Warwick Capper (and Im tipping you have the shorts.. ).

You do provide comic relief though - keep up the good work.

[Teflon]

Teflon

I think your point was somewhat similar to mine?????? Although I am a bit confused now.

I dont think it was a contradiction at all, I beleive and I hope that all involved would have been disappointed with the 07 season, our list at the time whilst not perfect (which Im sure I never even suggested) was good enough to play finals, but due to Lyon being new and trying to find his feet and the players inability to adapt to a slightly different style of play, we did not play finals. I thought that was unacceptable and was disappointed, not the end of the world though and actually went into 08 confident that whilst we had missed September we were actually better placed to improve due to some of the pain that we had endured.

I was right and we have improved and i stick by my summation that RL has us better placed than his predecessor did but his results were disappointing in his first season in particular.

At the end of the day you can have the best laid plans and the best structures and the best list management, but on any given day you have to adapt to the opposition and the circumstances you are in, this is where RL has probably improved and developed most. There was games in 07 that we lost trying to play our new style of football that we could have snatched if we had just gone out and attacked after half time. IMO of course.

sorry Rexy I got you wrong on the previous post as I agree with nearly all of that - except that I wasnt as dissapointed that we missed finals in 07 given injury and a rookie coach. In some respects I likened it to Geelongs 06 season in terms of taking a step back to go forward. It was always gonna take time for both players and coach - lets hope the clearly good chemistry there now continues.

[St Fidelius]

Teflon

I think your point was somewhat similar to mine?????? Although I am a bit confused now.

I dont think it was a contradiction at all, I beleive and I hope that all involved would have been disappointed with the 07 season, our list at the time whilst not perfect (which Im sure I never even suggested) was good enough to play finals, but due to Lyon being new and trying to find his feet and the players inability to adapt to a slightly different style of play, we did not play finals. I thought that was unacceptable and was disappointed, not the end of the world though and actually went into 08 confident that whilst we had missed September we were actually better placed to improve due to some of the pain that we had endured.

I was right and we have improved and i stick by my summation that RL has us better placed than his predecessor did but his results were disappointing in his first season in particular.

At the end of the day you can have the best laid plans and the best structures and the best list management, but on any given day you have to adapt to the opposition and the circumstances you are in, this is where RL has probably improved and developed most. There was games in 07 that we lost trying to play our new style of football that we could have snatched if we had just gone out and attacked after half time. IMO of course.

sorry Rexy I got you wrong on the previous post as I agree with nearly all of that - except that I wasnt as dissapointed that we missed finals in 07 given injury and a rookie coach. In some respects I likened it to Geelongs 06 season in terms of taking a step back to go forward. It was always gonna take time for both players and coach - lets hope the clearly good chemistry there now continues.

And that's what rodgerfox stated the moment RL became our coach!

He mentioned that we will not move forward in the first year and it will be a development year for the players to get to know his style and game plan...

Some on here criticised his comments at the time....

[Teflon]

Teflon

I think your point was somewhat similar to mine?????? Although I am a bit confused now.

I dont think it was a contradiction at all, I beleive and I hope that all involved would have been disappointed with the 07 season, our list at the time whilst not perfect (which Im sure I never even suggested) was good enough to play finals, but due to Lyon being new and trying to find his feet and the players inability to adapt to a slightly different style of play, we did not play finals. I thought that was unacceptable and was disappointed, not the end of the world though and actually went into 08 confident that whilst we had missed September we were actually better placed to improve due to some of the pain that we had endured.

I was right and we have improved and i stick by my summation that RL has us better placed than his predecessor did but his results were disappointing in his first season in particular.

At the end of the day you can have the best laid plans and the best structures and the best list management, but on any given day you have to adapt to the opposition and the circumstances you are in, this is where RL has probably improved and developed most. There was games in 07 that we lost trying to play our new style of football that we could have snatched if we had just gone out and attacked after half time. IMO of course.

sorry Rexy I got you wrong on the previous post as I agree with nearly all of that - except that I wasnt as dissapointed that we missed finals in 07 given injury and a rookie coach. In some respects I likened it to Geelongs 06 season in terms of taking a step back to go forward. It was always gonna take time for both players and coach - lets hope the clearly good chemistry there now continues.

And that's what rodgerfox stated the moment RL became our coach!

He mentioned that we will not move forward in the first year and it will be a development year for the players to get to know his style and game plan...

Some on here criticised his comments at the time....

Rodgerfox also told us at that same time we were doomed to sit mid table unless we had a massive list overhaul.

Hes now telling us the list hasnt changed, is as good as its ever been but Ross Lyons still done nothing....

Im amazed at how some on here are conned by Dodgy.Hes actually having a lend of the whole site and posting for a stir not cause he believes the tripe (its like Craig Hitchisons poor "drama" attempt on FC.)....and some are actually quoting him as a reputable source....

I guess if you ramble enough...you'll eventually get a follower or two.