GT on Sen

[Richter]

I can't help but detect an undercurrent of some sort in this article. Something like "after messing about a bit with dodgy boring gameplans, RL is finally letting the team I put together play how they can..."

thats how I read it "perceived weaknesses" HA

Basically Grant is arrogant and headstrong...... qualities that are actually important in a great leader. However, you also have to be right. This article encapsulates a number of the things that, despite my like for GT, made me support his sacking....

- obtuseness on the ruck issue

- inability to see our defensive fragility all over the park. This is the biggest thing that has changed since he left. You can say that we were cruelled with injury in 2005-6 but we were always fragile and prone to be counterattacked against. To me that is a vast area of improvement. Also look to our defence which is actually missing 4 walk-up starters in Max, Maguire, Dempster and Raph.

He had the hubris and the personality to lead us through to a flag just not the coaching nous. And he still just doesn't quite get the tactical side. He says that he didn't see Ross Lyon as a natural senior coach but as a natural assistant - I can see where he's coming from. GT had/has the leadership qualities but without the strategic football thinking that is also a prerequisite for a successful coach. AFAICS you can develop and learn the leadership stuff but it is much harder to do that with the footy nous.

[InkerSaint]

Believe me, if I think someone is lying then I generally say so.

If you're going to quote someone, or use what they said in a discussion or argument - you need to be accurate.
You can't simply take a sentence twist it and change it anyway you want.

What's to twist? He posted an opinion that can be reasonably backed up with conviction, and supported it with a claim that is on the public record.

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/s ... 12058.html

http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... ht=#712313

[rodgerfox]

Believe me, if I think someone is lying then I generally say so.

If you're going to quote someone, or use what they said in a discussion or argument - you need to be accurate.
You can't simply take a sentence twist it and change it anyway you want.

What's to twist? He posted an opinion that can be reasonably backed up with conviction, and supported it with a claim that is on the public record.

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/s ... 12058.html

http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... ht=#712313

Huh?


What did Thomas say? Can you answer that?

So far, from the one poster I've read two different things that he said.

[InkerSaint]

Huh?


What did Thomas say? Can you answer that?

Why would I?

I put it to you that you need to demonstrate how GT's words have been twisted, if at all.

Enough people have corroborated what GT said on FC that even if I did produce a transcript no-one would be the wiser. How many people do you want to have to refute? Go and have a look at the thread I so kindly posted for you and count them.

So far, from the one poster I've read two different things that he said.

Yes, two different things. One was his opinion and not words that he put in GT's mouth. The other was his summary of GT's comment on FC.

Is this dead horse flogged enough yet?

[rodgerfox]

Huh?


What did Thomas say? Can you answer that?

Why would I?

I put it to you that you need to demonstrate how GT's words have been twisted, if at all.

Enough people have corroborated what GT said on FC that even if I did produce a transcript no-one would be the wiser. How many people do you want to have to refute? Go and have a look at the thread I so kindly posted for you and count them.

So far, from the one poster I've read two different things that he said.

Yes, two different things. One was his opinion and not words that he put in GT's mouth. The other was his summary of GT's comment on FC.

Is this dead horse flogged enough yet?

Yes, it has been.


It's just that Thomas' quote are so often either misquoted, or taken completely out of context, or simply just made up.

Not rating ruckman. Wanting to sack Harvey etc. etc.

Not at all true, yet are now repeated so often that many believe they were actually said.

I fear that this is heading down that path very quickly.

The way I interpreted what he said, was that the fitness staff aren't very good at preventing injuries. Hence that they are overrated in their abilities. Not their importance.

That's very different to saying he 'doesn't rate fitness people'.

[SainterK]

GT is the king of the backhanded compliment

[InkerSaint]

The way I interpreted what he said, was that the fitness staff aren't very good at preventing injuries. Hence that they are overrated in their abilities. Not their importance.

That's very different to saying he 'doesn't rate fitness people'.

Well, aside from the fact that your interpretation is at odds from almost everyone else's, either way demonstrates GT's total lack of recognition of his shortcoming and he's still lynched.

And yet you chose this as the sticking point on which to mount your debate, now, after the discussion had been raised on the GT vs. Caro thread, to which you contributed two posts of your own, and never bothered to raise it then?

Not a good look, rf.

[rodgerfox]

The way I interpreted what he said, was that the fitness staff aren't very good at preventing injuries. Hence that they are overrated in their abilities. Not their importance.

That's very different to saying he 'doesn't rate fitness people'.

Well, aside from the fact that your interpretation is at odds from almost everyone else's, either way demonstrates GT's total lack of recognition of his shortcoming and he's still lynched.

And yet you chose this as the sticking point on which to mount your debate, now, after the discussion had been raised on the GT vs. Caro thread, to which you contributed two posts of your own, and never bothered to raise it then?

Not a good look, rf.

I don't think I've really debated much in here to be honest.

[heavenly]

hey guys - thomo is actually doing a live chat tomorrow on wwos - they've just started promoting it...

http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=801149

[iwantmeseats]

I think GT has been resonable even handed and quite positive towards RL and how he is going. More so than I would have ever imagined.

[skeptic]

Had a bit of a laugh myself

On the one hand, he rates Eade as one of the best tacticians in football... yet when Eade was available, Gin and Tonic didn't step down and attempt to get Eade to the Saints.

GT was the coach, Eade would not have come as an assistant. Just because he stated that he rates Eade as a tactician doesn't mean he believes him to be the most suitable coach for the Saints.

Funny also was hos grading of Ross... given how poorly he performed in his first 2 years...

9th and 4th. Didn't perform that poorly. Had very poor periods, also had some good ones too.

And his comment that we would have performed better with an experienced coach... yet he didn't let that stop him from taking on the job as senior coach.

The Saints team of 2007 was vastly different to the Saints team of 2002. One could argue that a more experienced coach could have gotten better results at least in 2007.
When GT took on the role, the idea seemed to be build the team from the ground up... that kind of philosophy allowed for time for the coach to grow into the job.
The impression when RL started seemed to be that St.Kilda was ready for a serious crack at the premiership and was a decent coach and some luck with injuries away from getting it.
The flaw here is that it has emerged 2 years later that RL infact felt the need to rebuild too and we're now seeing te benefits of that. Your argument misses the point.

Man speaks with forked tongue.

You're not too bad at twisting things out of context yourself.



PS
On FC GT stated that he didn't rate the fitness staff when he was coach. He didn't say he was wrong but I got the impression (yes it is only my opinion) that he implied he got it wrong.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

skeptic we finished 9th in 07 not 12th...

[Mr Magic]

PS
On FC GT stated that he didn't rate the fitness staff when he was coach. He didn't say he was wrong but I got the impression (yes it is only my opinion) that he implied he got it wrong.

It's surprizing how different people can see the same thing and come up with totally different impressions. I suppose our impressions are affected by our own bias.

I saw what you saw and got completely the opposite impression - that he didn't rate them then and still doesn't.

[skeptic]

skeptic we finished 9th in 07 not 12th...

yes u r correct and I've amended same... funny, I had 9th in my head too but somehow it all made sense to me when I typed it...

I think I need some sleep

Mr Magic, would also like to change the "it" in ur quote of me, to a "he"

[Munga]

How did this turn into a pro/anti Thomas thread?
Now that it has, though ...
Look, he took over the job when we were in a very precarious position. Does anyone actually remember the state of play the day Blight was sacked?
Easter Monday 2003, we lost to Richmond. He came out and said after the game that we're the better team and copped heaps for it. Look at what the repsective clubs have done since. We're a powerhouse. The other is treading water.
He took us to finals three years running. Had it not been for injuries we not only could've won one flag, but multiple.
Yeah, he probably got us as far as he was going to and I think Lyon is a better coach. But things ended sourly when he was sacked because he fell out with the president, not because he was a dud. Keep it in context.

You speak the truth. GT was just the tonic we needed and instilled the tough and loyal mentality in to our young list.

[Teflon]

PS
On FC GT stated that he didn't rate the fitness staff when he was coach. He didn't say he was wrong but I got the impression (yes it is only my opinion) that he implied he got it wrong.

sorry this is just wrong.

I saw the FC discussion - GT clearly indicates he does not rate "training services" much to the laughter of other panellists.

If this is not proof that this turkey was a turkey who was sorely lacking in coaching nous then nothing will.

Seriously just glad its gawn. The whole "spin" around "if there is someone better credentialled I'll step aside..." blah blah blah was all about buying him time (he knew hed been complicit in a sham to get the job....he needed the time to learn...)

Facts are he was NEVER gonna step aside and the irony is that Rod Butters last act to sack Atilla and appoint Lyon could yet prove the defining decision in us winnign a flag.

I know Id buy him a beer if that eventuated.

BTW - as an aside......isnt it nice to have a coach who doesnt NEED it to be about him, doesnt want it to be about him, doesnt go looking for headlines, who doesnt feel the need to run 4 different areas of the club.... and who is all about doing the "team things".....

Refreshing for St Kilda to say the least.

[rodgerfox]

I saw what you saw and got completely the opposite impression - that he didn't rate them then and still doesn't.

To be fair, they weren't much chop.

[Mr Magic]

I saw what you saw and got completely the opposite impression - that he didn't rate them then and still doesn't.

To be fair, they weren't much chop.

To be fair to who?

What has the performance of 'training services' during GT's reign as coach got to do with his apparent opinion that 'fitness staff' today are over-rated?

Did you actually see the segment?

[rodgerfox]

To be fair to who?

What has the performance of 'training services' during GT's reign as coach got to do with his apparent opinion that 'fitness staff' today are over-rated?

Did you actually see the segment?

If you employed 'fitness staff' who did stuff all in terms of preventing injuries, you'd probably think they are overrated too.

It's like a lawyer that never gets you off. In the end you'd surely question whether or not getting legal representation is all it's cracked up to be.

[Mr Magic]

To be fair to who?

What has the performance of 'training services' during GT's reign as coach got to do with his apparent opinion that 'fitness staff' today are over-rated?

Did you actually see the segment?

If you employed 'fitness staff' who did stuff all in terms of preventing injuries, you'd probably think they are overrated too.

It's like a lawyer that never gets you off. In the end you'd surely question whether or not getting legal representation is all it's cracked up to be.

So you think it is reasonable to question the effectiveness of 'fitness staff' today because of your inability to get your 'fitness staff' to work properly years ago?

Did you watch the segment?

[InkerSaint]

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/ ... 72,00.html

The Saints are currently equal-third for least injuries which puts them in the top quarter percentile.

It's a big improvement from bottom quarter percentile.

[rodgerfox]

So you think it is reasonable to question the effectiveness of 'fitness staff' today because of your inability to get your 'fitness staff' to work properly years ago?

Did you watch the segment?

Yes, I did watch.

And yes, I think it's reasonable to question the effectiveness of them. And I also don't think the coaches job is to get the fitness to work properly.

Thomas selected the staff, then left them to their work. They were the 'experts', so he let them do what they were paid to do.

They reported to him, so when they failed, he was accountable. But I still think it's crazy to lay the blame for injuries on the head coach.

[Mr Magic]

So you think it is reasonable to question the effectiveness of 'fitness staff' today because of your inability to get your 'fitness staff' to work properly years ago?

Did you watch the segment?

Yes, I did watch.

And yes, I think it's reasonable to question the effectiveness of them. And I also don't think the coaches job is to get the fitness to work properly.

Thomas selected the staff, then left them to their work. They were the 'experts', so he let them do what they were paid to do.

They reported to him, so when they failed, he was accountable. But I still think it's crazy to lay the blame for injuries on the head coach.

He was asked about the 'fitness staff' today (under RL). He wasn't asked to comment on the 'fitness staff' he had.

But you knew that didn't you, because you watched the segment?

GT was asked by his fellow commentators on Footy Classified, given the apparent improved fitness and injury position at St Kilda now, to comment on the issue.
It was plain, simple and obvious.

[rodgerfox]

GT was asked by his fellow commentators on Footy Classified, given the apparent improved fitness and injury position at St Kilda now, to comment on the issue.
It was plain, simple and obvious.

And how do you think he formed that opinion???

He was an AFL coach, who worked with 'fitness staff'.

Therefore, from what he'd seen when he was an AFL coach, I think it's fair for him to assume their role, performance and actual impact is overrated.

He's seen it first hand.

[joffaboy]

GT was asked by his fellow commentators on Footy Classified, given the apparent improved fitness and injury position at St Kilda now, to comment on the issue.
It was plain, simple and obvious.

And how do you think he formed that opinion???

He was an AFL coach, who worked with 'fitness staff'.

Therefore, from what he'd seen when he was an AFL coach, I think it's fair for him to assume their role, performance and actual impact is overrated.

He's seen it first hand.

But wouldn't it be fair to assume that the fitness staff when he was an AFL coach to be no good?

If the fitness staff he employed were no good throughout his tenure - how would he be able to know if other clubs fitness staff were any good?

One would assume that he looked at the injury states at the time a dn looked specifically at soft tissue injuries and wouldn't it be reasonable to ask - why do we have so many soft tissue injuries and a team like Sydney (in 2005 for example where a fit and settled Sydney smashed an injury ravaged St.Kilda to win the flag) has so few?

Wouldn't it make sense that the "right" fitness staff are not overrated and that the only fitness staff that were overrated were the poor ones he employed - in his experience as an AFL coach of course?