Our own that broke our hearts...

[luckysaint]

I can support the info provided above. My knowledge came from a member of the medical community Luke went to after the Saints to get treatment. He did have chemo to try and get his knee to a condition that he could live with let alone play AFL. It was a very difficult situation aggravated by GT's comment at the time.

I hope he's going alright now[/quote]

[vacuous space]

Heath wanted to go... we got what we could for him. Trade him to Freo or lose him in the PSD for free

This is how I remember the situation: Black had asked for a trade in 2003. Freo had offered up their second round pick (27th overall). GT wanted their first pick (pick 10). The trade fell through. Black asked for a trade again at the end of 2004. Because Richmond offered Simmonds that ridiculous contract, we had to deal with Richmond, who offered us a second round pick (pick 20) or a choice from a list of players. We opted for Fiora. I'd still love to know who else was on that supposed list.

In this day and age, it's hard to believe that GT didn't just cut his losses and take one of the draft picks. I'm not sure though that teams properly appreciated the value of picks in 03 and 04 given the trades that were made back then. GT got totally stuck on the fact we traded pick 17. We should have just taken the hit, traded him back, got him out of the club rooms and let our recruiters try and work out the rest. It's not like Black ended up doing much for Freo either. Only Simmonds has had a real impact since that trade.

[the shadow]

Heath didn't want to go. He didn't want to pay under GT. Saw straight through the corporate GT claptrap and told him so. A straight shooter and man of god off the field was our Heath. Couldn't stand GT from the start.

As for "Crapuano" (I hope you played at AFL level, because if you didn't it's a bit rich to criticise someone who has in this way. Good enough to play in two premierships with the Kangas I note), the exact quote that got him the sack was,"Thomas couldn't coach a fart out of a bottle". Surely you don't believe he was sacked half way through a season for a poor performance alone? Half the list would have to go if that was the case. No, it was simply our good mate GT protecting his own massive ego.

The Jones I was referring to was Chris Jones, head of GT's infamously named "Training Services", not Austinn Jones. Again, a scapegoat when GT failed to take responsibility for his woeful record of insisting on playing injured players.

As for Waldo, I'll state it here, he was allegedly sacked for an indiscretion with a female member of staff. GT was allegedly up to his nuts in that one as well (pardon the pun) and had plenty to do with the sacking as well. It's good to be skeptical, especially around football clubs, but I think you need to find better informed sources, skeptic. The ones you currently use are way off the mark if your post is anything to go by.

[the shadow]

Heath didn't want to go. He didn't want to pay under GT. Saw straight through the corporate GT claptrap and told him so. A straight shooter and man of god off the field was our Heath. Couldn't stand GT from the start.

As for "Crapuano" (I hope you played at AFL level, because if you didn't it's a bit rich to criticise someone who has in this way. Good enough to play in two premierships with the Kangas I note), the exact quote that got him the sack was,"Thomas couldn't coach a fart out of a bottle". Surely you don't believe he was sacked half way through a season for a poor performance alone? Half the list would have to go if that was the case. No, it was simply our good mate GT protecting his own massive ego.

The Jones I was referring to was Chris Jones, head of GT's infamously named "Training Services", not Austinn Jones. Again, a scapegoat when GT failed to take responsibility for his woeful record of insisting on playing injured players.

As for Waldo, I'll state it here, he was allegedly sacked for an indiscretion with a female member of staff. GT was allegedly up to his nuts in that one as well (pardon the pun) and had plenty to do with the sacking as well. It's good to be skeptical, especially around football clubs, but I think you need to find better informed sources, skeptic. The ones you currently use are way off the mark if your post is anything to go by.

[vacuous space]

Heath didn't want to go.

I don't believe this at all. Black is on public record as saying that moving to St Kilda was the biggest mistake of his career. He publicly advised Chris Judd against moving here even after GT had been gone for over a year. He clearly had issues with the club outside of the senior coach.

[Sobraz]

Matty Lappin had plenty left in the tank when he became a blue... Super talented player who had plenty more to offer us... Unfortunatly, the black day in 1997 sent his career in another direction, as it did many other saints...

[claystreet]

2 that stand out in my mind were Big Carl and Tony Plugger Lockett

[borderbarry]

Val Perovic and Michael Malthouse, both let go the same time by the club.

[stinger]

Heath didn't want to go. He didn't want to pay under GT. Saw straight through the corporate GT claptrap and told him so. A straight shooter and man of god off the field was our Heath. Couldn't stand GT from the start.

As for "Crapuano" (I hope you played at AFL level, because if you didn't it's a bit rich to criticise someone who has in this way. Good enough to play in two premierships with the Kangas I note), the exact quote that got him the sack was,"Thomas couldn't coach a fart out of a bottle". Surely you don't believe he was sacked half way through a season for a poor performance alone? Half the list would have to go if that was the case. No, it was simply our good mate GT protecting his own massive ego.

The Jones I was referring to was Chris Jones, head of GT's infamously named "Training Services", not Austinn Jones. Again, a scapegoat when GT failed to take responsibility for his woeful record of insisting on playing injured players.

As for Waldo, I'll state it here, he was allegedly sacked for an indiscretion with a female member of staff. GT was allegedly up to his nuts in that one as well (pardon the pun) and had plenty to do with the sacking as well. It's good to be skeptical, especially around football clubs, but I think you need to find better informed sources, skeptic. The ones you currently use are way off the mark if your post is anything to go by.

think you have got your officials mixed up...as for your other comments...i will stick to my original comments...and unless you saw the peahearts last performance..you shouldn't be commenting.....imho that is.......gawd...i am agreeing with and defending skeptic....flowere me.....

[stinger]

Matty Lappin had plenty left in the tank when he became a blue... Super talented player who had plenty more to offer us... Unfortunatly, the black day in 1997 sent his career in another direction, as it did many other saints...

i agree....on talent levels...but matty was a bad influence on other young players at the time...a piss pot...so the cub got rid of him rather than aussie and a few others.....

[stinger]

Val Perovic and Michael Malthouse, both let go the same time by the club.

different reasons...still broke my heart.....val...not mick......val wouldn't shift to melbourne as the club directed all ballaret boys were to do.......mick...well we has half a dozen really good back pocket players at the time.......dunne and mildenhall included....mick was starved for opportunities........and went with the clubs blessing....

...i saw how good he could ..and did become though.......he once got about a dozen possessions from the backline in the first quarter before getting injured.......the best quarter he ever played for us .......

[plugger66]

He is loved on here, because of the circumstances he left.....which no one actually knows the official reason.....

What I do know is the club stood by him through countless shoulder injuries and continued to contract him.....then he made it known he was going to the crows, and they did not need to compensate us....

i will get very controversial and say that I consider him no different to Cayn Beetham......a waste of a DP.......they decided the saints were not for them.....for different reasons yes......but the bottom line is the same......they left and we got squat after putting time and money into them.....

as for loving the saints.... sitting with four SANFL players, watching a final - does not make up for quitting...wasn't he still a contracted crow at the time?????

Brent Renouf..........

Xavier Clarke/Raph Clarke......

Begley left for one reason only. To go home after his best friend died. He wanted to be with family but it seems you know how he was feeling at the time. You must be a very smart person to know someones inner feelings.

[plugger66]

Heath didn't want to go. He didn't want to pay under GT. Saw straight through the corporate GT claptrap and told him so. A straight shooter and man of god off the field was our Heath. Couldn't stand GT from the start.

As for "Crapuano" (I hope you played at AFL level, because if you didn't it's a bit rich to criticise someone who has in this way. Good enough to play in two premierships with the Kangas I note), the exact quote that got him the sack was,"Thomas couldn't coach a fart out of a bottle". Surely you don't believe he was sacked half way through a season for a poor performance alone? Half the list would have to go if that was the case. No, it was simply our good mate GT protecting his own massive ego.

The Jones I was referring to was Chris Jones, head of GT's infamously named "Training Services", not Austinn Jones. Again, a scapegoat when GT failed to take responsibility for his woeful record of insisting on playing injured players.

As for Waldo, I'll state it here, he was allegedly sacked for an indiscretion with a female member of staff. GT was allegedly up to his nuts in that one as well (pardon the pun) and had plenty to do with the sacking as well. It's good to be skeptical, especially around football clubs, but I think you need to find better informed sources, skeptic. The ones you currently use are way off the mark if your post is anything to go by.

Heath Black did want to go home. I know this as fact. His girlfriend hated Melbourne and wanted to go back to her family. We had a policy which was a pretty good one at the time being that if you didnt want to be at the club you were let go. Same with Begley and Carr.

[asiu]

spent ten days in a semi lockdown situation with loreen (los)

she was as inside as you could get .....her telling about waldron was as the rumours .... an ongoing 'indiscretion' plus over the top job advancement

there were no gt nuts in her story

[BigMart]

Oh please.....

You know this how???......you must also be a very smart person.....as the same question could be aimed at you......

Why did he have to go home and be with his family when his mate died? if you know this so well, explain how this helped Begley???

Brent Renouf had the same thing happen, Renouf is a Queenslander - as did James Bartel recently....yes it is was a tragedy, but why is there a need to quit you job?...why could he not get compassionate leave?, why could he not get councelling from the club?, how was going home to live going to help the situation?.....
yes everyone handles grief differently.....but the underlying factor is that life must go on, and given time it does........he is not the only person to have a personal tragedy or lose a mate, most of us have....

BTW - I was not that upset when he left (did not rate him highly)......more disappointed that he signalled his intentions to leave and because of that the club that stood by him and developed him were not compensated.....even though we invested plenty in him......like Beetham...

[the shadow]

Heath Black wanted to go home? All the way to Oakleigh! You may recall he is a Victorian and went to Freo from the Oakleigh Chargers! His partner/wife is on record in the press as saying she had nothing to do with their return to WA and that she was made the scapegoat. She was happy to stay as she was also originally from Victoria and still had friends and relatives here. Her mother lives in WA now, but she claims she did not give Heath an ultimatum to return to WA.

Heath's problems stemmed from his dysfunctional relationship with GT. That's the reason he didn't enjoy his time at Moorabbin. I'm not casting aspersions on GT here. Many players don't get on with their coaches. HEath is a very stubborn type as well. It was a case of the immovable object meeting the irresistible force.

[plugger66]

Oh please.....

You know this how???......you must also be a very smart person.....as the same question could be aimed at you......

Why did he have to go home and be with his family when his mate died? if you know this so well, explain how this helped Begley???

Brent Renouf had the same thing happen, Renouf is a Queenslander - as did James Bartel recently....yes it is was a tragedy, but why is there a need to quit you job?...why could he not get compassionate leave?, why could he not get councelling from the club?, how was going home to live going to help the situation?.....
yes everyone handles grief differently.....but the underlying factor is that life must go on, and given time it does........he is not the only person to have a personal tragedy or lose a mate, most of us have....

BTW - I was not that upset when he left (did not rate him highly)......more disappointed that he signalled his intentions to leave and because of that the club that stood by him and developed him were not compensated.....even though we invested plenty in him......like Beetham...

So because the same thing happpened to Renouf then Begley should have acted the same way. What rubbish. How would anyone know how it would help him going home. Only he would know but that is what he wanted to do. Yes most have lost friends but I also know that those who have act differently. You obviously think everyone should act the same.

[plugger66]

Heath Black wanted to go home? All the way to Oakleigh! You may recall he is a Victorian and went to Freo from the Oakleigh Chargers! His partner/wife is on record in the press as saying she had nothing to do with their return to WA and that she was made the scapegoat. She was happy to stay as she was also originally from Victoria and still had friends and relatives here. Her mother lives in WA now, but she claims she did not give Heath an ultimatum to return to WA.

Heath's problems stemmed from his dysfunctional relationship with GT. That's the reason he didn't enjoy his time at Moorabbin. I'm not casting aspersions on GT here. Many players don't get on with their coaches. HEath is a very stubborn type as well. It was a case of the immovable object meeting the irresistible force.

Now to you shadow. Yes I know Black was from Melbourne but he went back to his previous home because his girlfriend wanted support from her family to help look after the kids. I would love to see the quote where she had nothing to do with Heath going back to WA because the way I have always heard the story is the way I have written it here and I have heard this story off reliable sources.

Anyway I am off to the footy to watch the mighty Saints.

[BigMart]

Not everyone should react the same...

If you believe he had every right to return home because a mate died, that is your opinion, which you are entitled to.....the cynic in me thinks it may have been an excuse/cop out...the realist says it was an opportunity to go back to SA and play footy, and in no way was that going to change the situation.....either way it does suggest something.....

One thing I am sick of hearing is
How Begley needed to return home to be with his family because he was so traumatised.....even lauded for going - it was a choice he made.....

[the shadow]

Sorry Plugger66. I know everything you say is right because you say so. Google Blacky or his missus, or if you are as close to him as you imply you are, just ask him. It was in the media. I know better than to take on the omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent plugger66. I remember the last time we locked horns. You were the only one without the integrity to admit you might be even the slightest bit wrong. Says it all really. I'll make sure the truth in my future posts does not offend your fragile sensibilities. You are indeed a piece of work. As for those who support you....., enough said. You are right. All the conversations I had with Heath were wrong. Sorry. I'll give him a smack as well. Great win today. Go sainters.

[bozza1980]

If he wanted to stay with us (Begley that is) he could of.......not sure how the death of a mate forced him to go home, and how it would have helped him recover.......many people have mates unfortunately die prematurely.....its a part of life one must learn to deal with it, as horrible as it sounds........88 australians died that day..........

He left the saints because he wanted to go home (and we got zilch for him).....like many interstate recruits.......he was far from any good anyway.....played about 70 games total.....IMO one of the more underwhelming players we have recruited

I don't agree, but I can see your argument.

That said, I think I would want to be close to the people I care about if I lost someone close to me. Why should it be any different because he earns a living as an AFL footballer.

At the end of the day the club let him go for nothing, they could have held him on the list and made him see out his contract but let him go.

At the end of the day it wasn't a great loss as he didn't do much as a crow.

[skeptic]

Heath didn't want to go. He didn't want to pay under GT. Saw straight through the corporate GT claptrap and told him so. A straight shooter and man of god off the field was our Heath. Couldn't stand GT from the start.

Shadow,

First of all, I believe you may need to chek your sources out as well because it seems to me that a number of other forumites seem to agree with my version of events.
GT may have been the reason that Heath Black left... I won't dispute that but he was not pushed out... HE wanted to go.
I think Peter Everite would have been a better example for the arguement you're making

As for "Crapuano" (I hope you played at AFL level, because if you didn't it's a bit rich to criticise someone who has in this way. Good enough to play in two premierships with the Kangas I note), the exact quote that got him the sack was,"Thomas couldn't coach a fart out of a bottle". Surely you don't believe he was sacked half way through a season for a poor performance alone? Half the list would have to go if that was the case. No, it was simply our good mate GT protecting his own massive ego.

Not having played AFL football does not disqualify me from being able to judge whether or not someone is a good player. I have also never tried to run the public transport system for an entire state but that doesn't stop me from saying that CONNEX are doing a sh#$house job. Not relevant.

If you go back to my original post, I said he was a crap footballer (for us) with a bad attitude, a boozer and a party boy.

Say what you will about GT but despite all the criticism he copped for this, sacking Matthew Capuano IMO was absolutely the right decision. It was the beginning of the ideation that the St.Kilda football club is no longer interested in players that aren't 100% committed to getting the best out of themselves.
GT got a lot of flak about the buzz word "culture". He may have been inept in many many ways (far too many to get into in this thread), but the transformation in culture was something that he started THAT WE NEEDED, which RL is getting the benefits from today.

The Jones I was referring to was Chris Jones, head of GT's infamously named "Training Services", not Austinn Jones. Again, a scapegoat when GT failed to take responsibility for his woeful record of insisting on playing injured players.

Apologies for this, yes I missed what you meant. I don't know a lot about this but I doubt I can argue with you here.

As for Waldo, I'll state it here, he was allegedly sacked for an indiscretion with a female member of staff. GT was allegedly up to his nuts in that one as well (pardon the pun) and had plenty to do with the sacking as well. It's good to be skeptical, especially around football clubs, but I think you need to find better informed sources, skeptic. The ones you currently use are way off the mark if your post is anything to go by.

Hmmm, I'd like to hear what you have to say about this in a bit more detail but either PM it to me or u'd be best keeping it to yourself

thanks for the discussion

[plugger66]

Sorry Plugger66. I know everything you say is right because you say so. Google Blacky or his missus, or if you are as close to him as you imply you are, just ask him. It was in the media. I know better than to take on the omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent plugger66. I remember the last time we locked horns. You were the only one without the integrity to admit you might be even the slightest bit wrong. Says it all really. I'll make sure the truth in my future posts does not offend your fragile sensibilities. You are indeed a piece of work. As for those who support you....., enough said. You are right. All the conversations I had with Heath were wrong. Sorry. I'll give him a smack as well. Great win today. Go sainters.

Glad to admit you are wrong. Wouldnt know Black if i fell over him. Just told by very reliable sources. Why didnt you go on about my spelling and English like you did last time when you were proved wrong. How was the party last night. Have a laugh about the spelling. Now you claim you have spoken to Heath. Funny that was never mentioed before just that his misses denied him leaving had something to do with her. Seems you arguement is weak so you now claim you spoke to him. By the way people supported me last time because you were wrong and also you attacked me about unimportant things like spelling. I know it may he hard to accept by an intellect like yourself but people would rather the truth and poor spelling than untruths and excellent spelling.

[maverick]

Sorry Plugger66. I know everything you say is right because you say so. Google Blacky or his missus, or if you are as close to him as you imply you are, just ask him. It was in the media. I know better than to take on the omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent plugger66. I remember the last time we locked horns. You were the only one without the integrity to admit you might be even the slightest bit wrong. Says it all really. I'll make sure the truth in my future posts does not offend your fragile sensibilities. You are indeed a piece of work. As for those who support you....., enough said. You are right. All the conversations I had with Heath were wrong. Sorry. I'll give him a smack as well. Great win today. Go sainters.

Glad to admit you are wrong. Wouldnt know Black if i fell over him. Just told by very reliable sources. Why didnt you go on about my spelling and English like you did last time when you were proved wrong. How was the party last night. Have a laugh about the spelling. Now you claim you have spoken to Heath. Funny that was never mentioed before just that his misses denied him leaving had something to do with her. Seems you arguement is weak so you now claim you spoke to him. By the way people supported me last time because you were wrong and also you attacked me about unimportant things like spelling. I know it may he hard to accept by an intellect like yourself but people would rather the truth and poor spelling than untruths and excellent spelling.

Personally I'll go with Shadow who has spoken to the person involved rather than some reliable sources no doubt with an agenda to protect.

Losing Heath was one of the hardest to swallow over the last 5 years, he was better than a lot on here give him credit for.

[maverick]

Oh please.....

You know this how???......you must also be a very smart person.....as the same question could be aimed at you......

Why did he have to go home and be with his family when his mate died? if you know this so well, explain how this helped Begley???

Brent Renouf had the same thing happen, Renouf is a Queenslander - as did James Bartel recently....yes it is was a tragedy, but why is there a need to quit you job?...why could he not get compassionate leave?, why could he not get councelling from the club?, how was going home to live going to help the situation?.....
yes everyone handles grief differently.....but the underlying factor is that life must go on, and given time it does........he is not the only person to have a personal tragedy or lose a mate, most of us have....

BTW - I was not that upset when he left (did not rate him highly)......more disappointed that he signalled his intentions to leave and because of that the club that stood by him and developed him were not compensated.....even though we invested plenty in him......like Beetham...

So because the same thing happpened to Renouf then Begley should have acted the same way. What rubbish. How would anyone know how it would help him going home. Only he would know but that is what he wanted to do. Yes most have lost friends but I also know that those who have act differently. You obviously think everyone should act the same.

Ypu concentrate on the emotional side of the argument but not the question.

Why did he make it so public so we got NOTHING for him?
Why not help the club that developed and spent so much money on him who has done nothing wrong in the whole situation?

Loyalty, professionalism in dealings and ethics work both ways, the onus is not just on the clubs in this area.

I don't think he was much chop as a player, but we deserved more.