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BigMart wrote:If he wanted to stay with us (Begley that is) he could of.......not sure how the death of a mate forced him to go home, and how it would have helped him recover.......many people have mates unfortunately die prematurely.....its a part of life one must learn to deal with it, as horrible as it sounds........88 australians died that day..........
He left the saints because he wanted to go home (and we got zilch for him).....like many interstate recruits.......
Not a popular opinion here BigMart but I agree entirely.
And I disagree.
People handle crisis/death situations differently.
Who are we to say which is the correct way?
He is loved on here, because of the circumstances he left.....which no one actually knows the official reason.....
What I do know is the club stood by him through countless shoulder injuries and continued to contract him.....then he made it known he was going to the crows, and they did not need to compensate us....
i will get very controversial and say that I consider him no different to Cayn Beetham......a waste of a DP.......they decided the saints were not for them.....for different reasons yes......but the bottom line is the same......they left and we got squat after putting time and money into them.....
as for loving the saints.... sitting with four SANFL players, watching a final - does not make up for quitting...wasn't he still a contracted crow at the time?????
Good OP!
intresting topic
I for one being an old fart broke my heart when Big Carl went to Melbourne under the ridiculous 10 year VFL rule that saw quite a few superstars change clubs for zilch return. The transfer rule which saw any player who had played 10 years with a club free to take up any personal cash payment to play for another club,. It won the Kangas a flag under Barassi in its first season , with the likes of Wade , Davis, Rantall? Dempsey? & other "poachees" and we lost our big blondeto the Dees He went on to Captain /Coach them which was good for Ditta , but at the time I thought well if thats AFL footy you can shove it !!!
The VFL came to their senses a couple of years later after great outcries but the damage was done and North bought themselves a flag out of it !
Anyway I might open a topic on the opposite side of the coin for interest sake
ie Players from other clubs who we have really embraced at Sainterland ( and those who have really embraced us by giving there all) and it will also be interesting to see how the ledger balances out ...although not many clubs have given away a Brownlow Medallist who went on to win another elsewhere, and we are probably the undisputed champions at that I think!
The Stewart issue was to my mind brought about by a combination of facts starting with the players off field indiscretions coupled with the fact our coach at the time a well respected member of the Victoria Police was adamant that he wouldn't coach him any longer, and we got Tiger bustling Billy Barrott for a few pathetic games in return for Stewie ... the former to embark on what I think is still a record as a footy journeyman the later to win a third Charlie
Bernard Shakey wrote:Agree with you wholeheartedly, Winmarvellous.
We played 24 games that year and the club, in The Saint magazine, ranked him in our best players in 16 of them, and then shafted him at the end of the year.
once more we agree.......i will never forgive that little scummer rat that cuz unfortunately let get in his head......the brown bagger wasn't fit to clean nicky's boots....little creep he was.....
but after that match the club stamped his papers.......should never have happened and the president of the day should hang his head in shame.......imho.....
.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will
"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"
However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
I suspect no-one knows the "real" reasons behind some of the moves, and for every move there are 101 theories.
Having said that, here's my take on the few that actually really mattered.
Ian Stewart: some of us will recall the sight of Stewie bending over and throwing up half way through the first quarter of a game. Little did we know that much of this was the result of a big night out before the game. On the other hand, it didn't seem to affect his performance that much and, in those days, some players used to smoke at the breaks. I have never seen a more complete footballer. But, within the club, things were different. On top of this, the player believed that he was being pressured to play when he was not fit. Alan Jeans has denied this, but perhaps the perception was enough. In addition, his form declined in 1969 and 1970 and he was clearly unhappy with the club. Just who should accept ultimate blame for this, coach or player, remains unclear to today. What I do know is that we would have been better off swapping him for Bozo the Clown than for Billy Barrot, who I think got two kicks for the Saints, one of them in the leg. Stewie went on to win the Brownlow in 1971, but it did not help Richmond win a flag as we beat them easily in the PF. He did play in their premierships in the following two years, as a reserve in 1972 and in the centre in 1973, another good year for him. His last two seasons in 74 and 75 were injury ridden with the problems of 1970 returning.
Carl Ditterich: I saw his first game at The Junction Oval, and what a sight it was to behold. Of course, he wasn't that good at the actual skills of the game, but was the original excitement machine. He improved as a footballer over the years. I was also out at Fitzroy when he clocked Daryl Peoples and got six weeks, a penalty designed to ensure that he could not play in any finals game in 1966, even with a draw. It was the one negative on "that" night in late September. Little did we know that the cup would never be held up again, in that era or any other (until now at least). In 1973, the VFL introduced the ten year rule, aka the "Get North a Flag Rule". And it worked. It meant that players with ten years at a club could go the highest bidder. Carl went to Melbourne. Realistically, the Saints had had their run and were on the slide. So, he took the money. He returned in 1976 and went back to Melbourne in 1979 and was the penultimate captain coach in 1980.
Tony Lockett and Barry Hall: I'm most critical of these two who left in almost identical circumstances. Both said they "needed a change" but both left for heaps at the Swans. Both moves cost us dearly, despite getting Dal Santo. We gave them everything and when they had a chance to deliver they failed us. But, that's modern football.
Joel Smith: On the day that has-been Osborne fell over across Joel Smith's leg (shades of Terry Waters and John McIntosh), our 1997 premiership hope took the first of the three stakes in the heart. He was a most exquisite footballer, who we never saw the best of, because although he returned, he lost just that bit of explosive pace after the two knee ops. We should have paid up. This one was our fault, thinking that we could get him on the cheap because of his injury.
Anyway, there are some of my theories, worth as much as any one else's, but no more.
Last edited by perfectionist on Fri 10 Apr 2009 8:00pm, edited 1 time in total.
BigMart wrote:He is loved on here, because of the circumstances he left.....which no one actually knows the official reason.....
Well he spoke to the CLub at that time and they didn't appear to try and stop him. They seemed to accept what he was telling them was his reasons for returning.
I know what he told people he grew close to whilst here in Melbourne (close enough to fly back from Adelaide and be part of their daughter's wedding party).
The reason didn't change.
Just because some don't agree with his reasoning or emotions at that time doesn't mean they weren't real.
As I said in a previous post, not all of us handle crisis/death in teh same way. It is a highly personal issue for the individuals involved and there is no right/wrong way.
You can either choose to accept the reasons given as genuine or reject them. I choose to accept them having gotten to know him a little.
Bernard Shakey wrote:Agree with you wholeheartedly, Winmarvellous.
We played 24 games that year and the club, in The Saint magazine, ranked him in our best players in 16 of them, and then shafted him at the end of the year.
once more we agree.......i will never forgive that little scummer rat that cuz unfortunately let get in his head......the brown bagger wasn't fit to clean nicky's boots....little creep he was.....
but after that match the club stamped his papers.......should never have happened and the president of the day should hang his head in shame.......imho.....
Don't need to say a thing you guys summed up exactly how I feel about it.
Some others to add
Heath Black
Grant Thomas ( can't remember if he left or was traded. Stinger?)
Ones that came close but loyalty was too strong
Robert Elphingstone to Richmond
Trevor Barker to Collingwood
Nicky Winmar to Collingwood
Geoff Cunningham to Carlton
David Grant to Sydney (another sad story)
Just to clarify, I thought Begley was just a player - hadn't really shown much. Certainly gave the crows better value with his footy.
Just commenting on his reasons for leaving - he was always a pretty good bloke, met him a few times. And I caught up with his best mate over in adelaide a couple of years after he left us. He confirmed that Begley regretted leaving us - was always a Saints man. And yes Bigmart. On that night when he sat with other ex-saints players and barracked for the Saints in the 2005 QF - he was indeed still a listed crows player!!!
I want to stand for something. I'm a loyal person and I think at the end of my career it will be great to look back and know that I'm a St Kilda person for life.
- Nick Riewoldt. May 19th 2009.
St DAC wrote:Luke Penny had a serious knee injury. Bit hard to lump him in with this list; he left football entirely, not just us. He had the rest of his life to consider.
Winmar7Fan wrote:...David Grant to Sydney (another sad story)
Went to Melbourne. He needed 9 games to get to 200 - played 7. I agree that we could have seen him through. But, it can be a tough (and heartless) game.
I liked Robbie "Orbit" Mace and Rod Owen,both traded to the Bears.
Was sad to see Gilbert McAdam sent to Brisbane and was heart broken when Plugger chased the $$$$$ in Sydney.We helped Craig O'Brien
resurect his career and also chased the $$$$ in Sydney along with Hall.
Hate the Swans!
Sad to see Nicky Winmar go too,but I thought his off field problems became to much for the club (and then had a great season at the Dogs)
Luke Penny's knee was that bad that he ended up having chemotherapy on it in an attempt to reduce the inflammation to bearable levels. I'm told that is a radical and desperate move. No one suspected how quickly his knee would deteriorate when he signed his last contract. The club thought it could be managed and that it would heal in time. To add insult to injury, GT was critical of Luke on SEN, implying that he didn't give him the full story when renegotiating. Luke's father (Mr. Penny, not Darth Vader) took umbrage and let fly. Interesting if the two met face to face........
Heath Black was an other interesting one. He was the first player on the list to take GT on face to face about some of the,...ahem, character flaws in GT's make-up. Naturally he went the same way as all the others who questioned GT's omnipotence and omniscience (Daniher, Capuano, Burke, Jones, Phelan, Waldron et al). He was effectively sacked, traded hastily in the Aaron Fiora deal. The cover story was that he had to go back to WA for the sake of his wife and her family. That story was absolute BS and has since been proven so.
Beetham's was a sad story. A very troubled young man with mental health issues. Would've probably been turned around in today's system. Cast adrift in less enlightened times. Could've been a contender. Played some great footy in the Amateurs. I believe he won a B&F at the Old Xavs.
One other that comes to mind is Dean Rice. Top player whom we let go over a doubt about his knee and disagreement over money. Played 116 very fine games for us. The knee issue was settled by the fact he played 118 games for Carlscum, including the 1995 premiership. Bugger!!!
Run like Ditterich, arms flailing, cause fear in the enemy, make fellow saints walk tall!
Going back JUST a few years - the one that got up my nose was Val Perovic. I can remember one of his early games for the Saints against H'thorn at the Carlton ground. Playing as a mid field in those days Perovic lined up against John Hendrie who started giving the new player some attention. Perovic just turned around and hit Hendrie right on the jaw which ended the attention. The next season Perovic was to train in Ballarat with some other Saints players but strangely got a super offer from Carlton to play there. He went on to be an importnat player in Carlton p'ship teams of the era. Nothing sh@ts me but that one went close.
[quote="the shadow"]Luke Penny's knee was that bad that he ended up having chemotherapy on it in an attempt to reduce the inflammation to bearable levels. I'm told that is a radical and desperate move. No one suspected how quickly his knee would deteriorate when he signed his last contract. The club thought it could be managed and that it would heal in time. To add insult to injury, GT was critical of Luke on SEN, implying that he didn't give him the full story when renegotiating. Luke's father (Mr. Penny, not Darth Vader) took umbrage and let fly. Interesting if the two met face to face........
I can support the info provided above. My knowledge came from a member of the medical community Luke went to after the Saints to get treatment. He did have chemo to try and get his knee to a condition that he could live with let alone play AFL. It was a very difficult situation aggravated by GT's comment at the time.
BallBanger wrote:Maybe you do have a problem with memory recall needlebrain but in answer to your question - Thomas would be your man
And (assuming you're correct about his contract, 'cause I don't recall the specifics; as I was at pains to point out) in the 3rd year of the 5 year contract he pulls the pin on his entire playing career because of a severe knee injury, you slag him off for it? Like it was deliberate? Or he had a peaheart?
Clearly of the two of us I'm not the needlebrain here.
perfectionist wrote:
Joel Smith: On the day that has-been Osborne fell over across Joel Smith's leg (shades of Terry Waters and John McIntosh), our 1997 premiership hope took the first of the three stakes in the heart. He was a most exquisite footballer, who we never saw the best of, because although he returned, he lost just that bit of explosive pace after the two knee ops. We should have paid up. This one was our fault, thinking that we could get him on the cheap because of his injury.
...correct.....
what was particularly galling to me is that osborne had the same thing happen to him...so was well aware of the terrible injuries that could result in diving on a players leg....reckless of him in the circumstances.......i still shudder when i think of poor old goose.....
.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will
"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"
However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
crapuano...was a pea heart...and let the club down........his last game...against the filth at the dome was a disgrace.....a teenaged matty maguire was left to do all the ruck work as the peaheart sooked on the bench....if he fell out with thomas.....good......
.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will
"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"
However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
the shadow wrote:
Heath Black was an other interesting one. He was the first player on the list to take GT on face to face about some of the,...ahem, character flaws in GT's make-up. Naturally he went the same way as all the others who questioned GT's omnipotence and omniscience (Daniher, Capuano, Burke, Jones, Phelan, Waldron et al). He was effectively sacked, traded hastily in the Aaron Fiora deal. The cover story was that he had to go back to WA for the sake of his wife and her family. That story was absolute BS and has since been proven so.
I don't think that's correct.
Heath wanted to go... we got what we could for him. Trade him to Freo or lose him in the PSD for free
Capuano wasn't sacked coz he questioned GT's omnipotence. He was a s*** ruckman, got his ass handed to him on a silver platter in a game VS a young Josh Fraser which was the catalsyt for Matt maguire's stint in the ruck and he was a boozy, lazy partier.
Jones played the best footy of his career under GT, I don't know but I doubt thats true
Waldron... well I've heard a rumor which i can't repeat (for fear of the site being shut down) as to why he was removed from his position and it had nothing to do with GT
sitting with four SANFL players, watching a final - does not make up for quitting...wasn't he still a contracted crow at the time?????
