Are we ALL starting to warm to Lyon yet?

[Saints43]

1. The St Kilda Board sacked GT in 2006 without any firm dea of who they wanted to replace him with:

I think part of the problem for Lyon getting a run at the job was the President's statement that "We are not going to get the best available coach - we are going to get the best coach" (or similar) raised expectations that the next step was about to be taken.

And for some reason I had convinced myself that Mark Williams was on the way - and I didn't give a stuff that GT had been given the arse.

Then we had the 2007 season. The style of play. The attitude.

[joffaboy]

Lets explode some revisionist history shallwe?

1. The St Kilda Board sacked GT in 2006 without any firm dea of who they wanted to replace him with:

Wrong. There were four coaches coming out of contract in 2007 and the Saints wanted the best opportunity to pick the best of the young coaches

the idea of getting Lyon emerged very late in the process

Lyon was not part of the initial vetting process but when suggested was seen to have been the best candidate - or are you questioning the process of getting the new coach.

Mabye you are mixing up the process in 2006 with the one in 2001.

and was - presumably - not a likely name in the minds of any members of the Board when they made the decision to sack GT.

Did the board select the new coach now?????

2. Given that they did not have a premiership-winning coach like Matthews or Malthouse lined up to replace him, the decision to sack GT remains hard to fathom on football-related grounds alone.

You mean even though he was a control freak (except for recruiting where he abbrogated all responsibility to JB - as told on air to B4E last year) and would not accept a restructure of the football dept and wanted to also do all the player contracts.

Despite serious injury problems, we made the top 4 after the home and away season for two seasons and then just missed the top 4 (arguably unfairly) in the third season.

If we hadn't had those injuries we may well have had a second premiership. Just one of the many reason why he was sacked.

Of course one of the main reasons was his relationship with the President. I dont think anyone could deny that.

Has any coach ever been previously been sacked in the history of the game after three such seasons (I have asked this question many times on this forum, without anyone coming up with a name)?

You mean three years of not winning a flag? Are you embracing mediocrity? Two PF's one a thrashing and being knocked out first up in 06 was good enough was it?

Coaches have been sacked after winning the flag. One went to St.Kilda after leaving their club as a premiership winning captain coach.

3. The reasons given by Butterss for sacking GT did not include blaming him for our injury problems or for "ruining our list". These ideas are just fantasies in the minds of some biased posters on here.

I agree. GT did not ruin our list. But our list was definately in decline when he was sacked. It wasn't sunk but was beginning to flounder.

4. The key players used by Lyon week in and week out were almost all established as key players under GT.

Those "key" players were all the high draft picks that GT said he had no control over selecting so why does he get credit for them.

Sure, Lyon might have played a dozen or so new players in the past 2 years. So might GT:

Yes but we wouldn't have had Gardiner and King or probably not Ray or Schneider Jones or Dempster. I cant remember one real success story GT recycled player - mabye Penny whom didn't last long - the rest were mainly failures.

perhaps some of you didn't notice, but we have lost Gehrig, Hamill, Thommo, Peckitt, Powell and Harvey through injury over that period. The fact is that only 4-5 of them have threated to become permanent fixtures (Schneider, King, Dempster, Jones, Gardiner).

All of whom Gt would not have chosen. I would also add Ray to a probably permanent.

Dont understand the first part. So those players had injuries over five years??? So what?

This hardly represents a major reworking of the list by any measure. Yes, we have gotten rid of a lot of players under Lyon, but relatively few of them had been first team players under GT.

Earlier on Saints43 put up the round one 2006 team and ten of that team is different now to then. A 45 % change. They included Ray Schneider King Gardiner Jones and Dawson (mabye one other I cant remember).

You also fail to realise that we chose quite a few under age and undersized players in the past couple of years in expectation of the GC17 thievery.

Robert Walls stated that we have 7 players from other clubs and 8 new players play seniors since Lyon started.

Thats 15 new players in the seniors. But you still say that is not much???

5. According to News Limited, best on ground in our Rd 1 win over Sydney were "B Goddard S Gilbert S Fisher N Dal Santo J Koschitzke L Montagna F Ray". Best on ground in our Rd 2 win over Adelaide were "Dal Santo, Montagna, Koschitzke, S. Fisher, Ball, Gram, Schneider". That's a 12 out of 14 score for the St Kilda list as of September 2006!!

So our best players are still our best players. All that says is our core group is still playing well. Doesn't say anything about development of younger or fringe players.

6. So why did we start to go better as 2008 wore on and are already looking even better this season. Two main reasons: (a) some of our key players look to be finally getting over their major injury problems (Ball, Kosi, Raph until Rd 1) and (b) as you would expect from any sort of leader who has been newly promoted to the top job at an organisation at which he or she has never previously worked, Lyon took a while to get the hang of the job.

yes that is fair enough. And considering we are playing a much more accountable gameplan the players had to learn how to play it.

Pointed out beautifully on On the Couch tonight. Shown in graphic detail how discipilined and good the Saints were at pushing up when zoning in defence.

7. To sum up, the decision to sack GT was an idiotic one that was taken by Board which

To sum up that is BS and the board did the right thing by getting rid of a coach who had run his race and was sending the list on a down hill spiral.

- when the members got the opportunity - was rewarded by being resoundingly voted out of office.

Yes and rewarded themselves with multiple 6 figure losses and a new home ground in Frankston.

The fact that Lyon was a surprise choice to almost everyone in the AFL world means that he was a bit of a gamble, to say the least.

Only a suprise to the likes of you GT worshippers. Well respected in football circles and a suprise to nobody.

Unlike the farce that got Thomas selected in 2001.

(On the other hand, he was nowhere near as big a gamble as GT when he was appointed and yet, at least in my opinion, GT turned out really well.)

Lyon has already matched his "success". A pre season win. Thomas won us nothing. Mabye Lyon wont either but this constant carping and back stabbing by sooky GT lovers wont make a difference and certainly wont brignthomas back as coach.

Get over it and stop revising history to suit your argument.

Fortunately, the gamble appears to have paid off and, now that he has had sufficient time to develop into the role, Lyon now looks set to perform as least as well as GT had done and - presuming that the current Board is not going to make a similarly ridiculous decision to get rid of him while he is performing well - could perhaps take us all the way.

He has already performed as well as Thomas - considering Lyon was in full agreement with the old board and current board re the football department i.e. he wanted to be the coach not the complete overseer of everything that happened at the football club including player contracts - and the fact that Lyon is a better coach - and also he doesn't owe the president a $1 mill that he wouldn't pay back - and the fact that it is a new board - why would he get sacked?

I know it's difficult for some of you to understand that it is possible for someone simultaneously to think that Lyon is a great coach and also that the decision to sack GT was totally wrong.

I think the opposite - there is no proof that Lyon is a great coach. He is showing signs that he may be very good but no way is he a great coach - and I think it was completely correct to rid us of the spectre of Thomas - and later to rid us of Butterss - to of the greatest egos of all time.

Oh and I like GT on Footy Classified - very good.

Not only do I think this, but I also think that the decision to appoint GT in the first place was wrong as well.

I thought it was a good decision.

You can't always judge a decision by the eventual results: you can make a low percentage choice and, more by luck than good management, end up better off than if you had made the high percentage choice. All this means is that you were lucky, not sensible.

yes we were lucky with Thomas and sensible with lyon.

[saintsRrising]

While I am now a staunch supporter of Lyon, I still consider the following facts to be indisputable.

.

Hah..what a laugh...

Despite that comedic list.....you obviously have completely forgotten that even your god GT tried to hire Lyon the year before!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What this means is that those within footy circles rated Lyon...and he was hardly the "nobody" you try and make him out to have been.

Thank god we did go with the cult of popularity or Paris Hilton may well be our coach!!!!

You now claim to be a staunch Lyon supporter...but rubbish his selection.

That's right...he got the job because he demonstrated to a PANEL..yes that was a panel that included a number of people including a former Club Captain, Coach and Brownlow Medalist in Ross Smith.

But because one member on that Panel was Robert Walls ...people such as MB are happy to spread the rubbish that Lyon was given the job by Walls...simply for beinga mate.

What utter rubbish!!!

He is the same coach now....as he was then. Sure more experienced...but he got the job because he won the committee over with the strategy and plans he laid out to take the Saints forward.

This he has consistently worked towards as he has made the Saints over into the team he wants them to be.

This is not a consequence of the last two weeks...but a long process from his first few seconds in the job....a time where he declared he wanted for example a capable ruckman in the team (how are Gardi and King looking???).

[Teflon]

Hi Saints43...glad you could come out of your hole for your usual tripe and sad, depressing swipe at Lyon.....must really grate that the coach you time and again refuse to support seems to be getting some things right?

Where was the swipe in my post? Are you literate?

I dont think there is any doubt your constant, negative cr@p towards Lyon with your pathetic, gutless attempts to hide behind "Ive not seen enough good yet" clearly show your only interest lies in talking the coach/club down when something goes wrong. IF you knew the meaning of the word objectivity you dimwitted girls blouse you'd also know it also calls for someone with the capacity to deliver an unbiased assessment - good and bad. In your world Lyons not done 1 thing right since hes been at the club...you just don't have the balls to say so. Sure, we are 2 games in - no one wants him put up with Yabby just yet but FFS even a half @ssed moron like you can see his approach is yielding some success.

BTW - Fitzroy are long gone sadly - you need to let go...but I will say this...when supporting them I never sat round waiting for a loss (I didnt have to wait long) so I could come out and slag off at the coach just to say Im right.....thats not a supporter no matter how many tins you (say..) you rattled to save this club.

I did more than rattle a tin you ignorant ****. As I was also involved with the last few years at Fitzroy - helping out the club historian (because I worked with him and he needed help) at the offices based at the AC I'm sure I would remember your efforts in attempting to save them. In what way were you involved? I should remember you...

I never felt any grief about the Roys going under until I discovered that it brought you to my club.

Spare us all the "I tried to save 2 clubs but alas there was nothing I could do..." what a crock of cr@p from an internet wanna be. Seriously, more Dodgerfox stunts - there is no doubt you are him (or you nuts share a flat) your pathetic lines are very consistent. You two ever posted at the same time????

IF you had anything to do with Fitzroy I now fully understand why they went under....just going by your 'balanced' posting that is....

BTW - Im NOW at my club, pay my membership to be part of MY club....and I got some bad news for ya.....Im gonna be for sometime yet..... but you are the kind of squib that doesnt like the coach or doesnt feel 'loved" by the club so you hide your cash under you mattress...wouldnt surprise if your not a paid up member at all.

We may win this week - best you bunker down to weather the storm...Im sure a gloating loss wont be to far off for ya...

I know you feel as though you have stuck by the coach and therefore deserve to enjoy a win for your adopted team more than those who have questioned him but it's not the case. You thought he was doing a good job when he wasn't (as he has admitted himself) - you just aligned yourself with anything that wasn't Grant Thomas. Your blind faith - and incorrect opinions based on that faith - was no recommendation for RL. You and one other dill on this site believe that 2007 has anything to do with 2009.

LMFAO - Your being silly now. Whats new.... I'm not ashamed to say I do support Ross Lyon - Im not ashamed to say I will back him at least for his full tenure (Ive no doubt...you assessed him 3 months in and decided he was no good.....like your girlfriend Dodg... ). Sadly, again you wait in hope that he fails so you can say "look everyone I was right" as the club again spirals downward. Its sad to think that such a glorified "tin rattler" - as you sell yourself to us - doesnt have the gonads to even be objective when assessing the CURRENT coaches performance.
Thomas is gone - you need to support the current coach and move.

I will praise RL for doing a good job when I believe he has done a good job.

No you wont why lie?

You'll again, as you did in this thread, start your post listing all his failings according to you, tells us all he's done nothing and that you will support him when you see something....

Rounds one & two of 2009 are not a justification for you thinking he was getting it right in 2007. You were just wrong, that's all.

Lyons made a prelim in year 2 (thats half his predecessors success already at the highest level), turned over the list considerably, got us playing tough pressure footy (this started in 2007), addressed the ruck issue with more success than anything in 5 years and addressed - finally - the fitness concerns that have haunted us for all Thomas years and cost us a flag IMHO. He's also introduced some likely kids and talent from other clubs which we are getting value from and which fill real holes (I dont think anyone would doubt that Sneider, Dempster, Attard - before injury, King, Ray,Geary, Eddy, Armitage, have helped bolster a list that was ageing and losing retiring champs with little coming through) I also think Lyons gotten many of these and given up little with perhaps Gardiner, the biggest pay off of all to come.... ....but according to you....thats not enough and.....he's done nothing in 3 years......

Its obvious you dont like the coach so maybe its time you gave ther Saints a rest and got back to your first love....which is saving destitute footy clubs. Time you got down to the Kangaroos Mother Theresa and spread some more of your clearly influential 'football administrative' nous....that ought to send them out in straight sets...

[Teflon]

The last two weeks these criticisms (except perhaps the last) cannot be laid at his door.

Anyway, am extremely happy with the start to the season.

After reading this I'm getting confused did we win or lose this game?

We won. Does it help if I take most of the words out of it for you?

If you're going to attempt to be a smart-arse try to at least get the smart bit right...

More Rodgerfoxisms?

I'd prefer the smart-arse attempts to your half-arsed logic....

[Saints Premiers 2008]

same old s***

no other club has this bulls***

[SainterK]

Warm is about right, I would be lying if I said I was completely won over....but I am not as cold on him as I once was.

We are playing good footy, he is showing faith in players who are in turn repaying it which says alot IMO, and he is clearly out to remove any preconceptions that people have about him.

[Teflon]

Lets explode some revisionist history shallwe?

1. The St Kilda Board sacked GT in 2006 without any firm dea of who they wanted to replace him with:

Wrong. There were four coaches coming out of contract in 2007 and the Saints wanted the best opportunity to pick the best of the young coaches

the idea of getting Lyon emerged very late in the process

Lyon was not part of the initial vetting process but when suggested was seen to have been the best candidate - or are you questioning the process of getting the new coach.

Mabye you are mixing up the process in 2006 with the one in 2001.

and was - presumably - not a likely name in the minds of any members of the Board when they made the decision to sack GT.

Did the board select the new coach now?????

2. Given that they did not have a premiership-winning coach like Matthews or Malthouse lined up to replace him, the decision to sack GT remains hard to fathom on football-related grounds alone.

You mean even though he was a control freak (except for recruiting where he abbrogated all responsibility to JB - as told on air to B4E last year) and would not accept a restructure of the football dept and wanted to also do all the player contracts.

Despite serious injury problems, we made the top 4 after the home and away season for two seasons and then just missed the top 4 (arguably unfairly) in the third season.

If we hadn't had those injuries we may well have had a second premiership. Just one of the many reason why he was sacked.

Of course one of the main reasons was his relationship with the President. I dont think anyone could deny that.

Has any coach ever been previously been sacked in the history of the game after three such seasons (I have asked this question many times on this forum, without anyone coming up with a name)?

You mean three years of not winning a flag? Are you embracing mediocrity? Two PF's one a thrashing and being knocked out first up in 06 was good enough was it?

Coaches have been sacked after winning the flag. One went to St.Kilda after leaving their club as a premiership winning captain coach.

3. The reasons given by Butterss for sacking GT did not include blaming him for our injury problems or for "ruining our list". These ideas are just fantasies in the minds of some biased posters on here.

I agree. GT did not ruin our list. But our list was definately in decline when he was sacked. It wasn't sunk but was beginning to flounder.

4. The key players used by Lyon week in and week out were almost all established as key players under GT.

Those "key" players were all the high draft picks that GT said he had no control over selecting so why does he get credit for them.

Sure, Lyon might have played a dozen or so new players in the past 2 years. So might GT:

Yes but we wouldn't have had Gardiner and King or probably not Ray or Schneider Jones or Dempster. I cant remember one real success story GT recycled player - mabye Penny whom didn't last long - the rest were mainly failures.

perhaps some of you didn't notice, but we have lost Gehrig, Hamill, Thommo, Peckitt, Powell and Harvey through injury over that period. The fact is that only 4-5 of them have threated to become permanent fixtures (Schneider, King, Dempster, Jones, Gardiner).

All of whom Gt would not have chosen. I would also add Ray to a probably permanent.

Dont understand the first part. So those players had injuries over five years??? So what?

This hardly represents a major reworking of the list by any measure. Yes, we have gotten rid of a lot of players under Lyon, but relatively few of them had been first team players under GT.

Earlier on Saints43 put up the round one 2006 team and ten of that team is different now to then. A 45 % change. They included Ray Schneider King Gardiner Jones and Dawson (mabye one other I cant remember).

You also fail to realise that we chose quite a few under age and undersized players in the past couple of years in expectation of the GC17 thievery.

Robert Walls stated that we have 7 players from other clubs and 8 new players play seniors since Lyon started.

Thats 15 new players in the seniors. But you still say that is not much???

5. According to News Limited, best on ground in our Rd 1 win over Sydney were "B Goddard S Gilbert S Fisher N Dal Santo J Koschitzke L Montagna F Ray". Best on ground in our Rd 2 win over Adelaide were "Dal Santo, Montagna, Koschitzke, S. Fisher, Ball, Gram, Schneider". That's a 12 out of 14 score for the St Kilda list as of September 2006!!

So our best players are still our best players. All that says is our core group is still playing well. Doesn't say anything about development of younger or fringe players.

6. So why did we start to go better as 2008 wore on and are already looking even better this season. Two main reasons: (a) some of our key players look to be finally getting over their major injury problems (Ball, Kosi, Raph until Rd 1) and (b) as you would expect from any sort of leader who has been newly promoted to the top job at an organisation at which he or she has never previously worked, Lyon took a while to get the hang of the job.

yes that is fair enough. And considering we are playing a much more accountable gameplan the players had to learn how to play it.

Pointed out beautifully on On the Couch tonight. Shown in graphic detail how discipilined and good the Saints were at pushing up when zoning in defence.

7. To sum up, the decision to sack GT was an idiotic one that was taken by Board which

To sum up that is BS and the board did the right thing by getting rid of a coach who had run his race and was sending the list on a down hill spiral.

- when the members got the opportunity - was rewarded by being resoundingly voted out of office.

Yes and rewarded themselves with multiple 6 figure losses and a new home ground in Frankston.

The fact that Lyon was a surprise choice to almost everyone in the AFL world means that he was a bit of a gamble, to say the least.

Only a suprise to the likes of you GT worshippers. Well respected in football circles and a suprise to nobody.

Unlike the farce that got Thomas selected in 2001.

(On the other hand, he was nowhere near as big a gamble as GT when he was appointed and yet, at least in my opinion, GT turned out really well.)

Lyon has already matched his "success". A pre season win. Thomas won us nothing. Mabye Lyon wont either but this constant carping and back stabbing by sooky GT lovers wont make a difference and certainly wont brignthomas back as coach.

Get over it and stop revising history to suit your argument.

Fortunately, the gamble appears to have paid off and, now that he has had sufficient time to develop into the role, Lyon now looks set to perform as least as well as GT had done and - presuming that the current Board is not going to make a similarly ridiculous decision to get rid of him while he is performing well - could perhaps take us all the way.

He has already performed as well as Thomas - considering Lyon was in full agreement with the old board and current board re the football department i.e. he wanted to be the coach not the complete overseer of everything that happened at the football club including player contracts - and the fact that Lyon is a better coach - and also he doesn't owe the president a $1 mill that he wouldn't pay back - and the fact that it is a new board - why would he get sacked?

I know it's difficult for some of you to understand that it is possible for someone simultaneously to think that Lyon is a great coach and also that the decision to sack GT was totally wrong.

I think the opposite - there is no proof that Lyon is a great coach. He is showing signs that he may be very good but no way is he a great coach - and I think it was completely correct to rid us of the spectre of Thomas - and later to rid us of Butterss - to of the greatest egos of all time.

Oh and I like GT on Footy Classified - very good.

Not only do I think this, but I also think that the decision to appoint GT in the first place was wrong as well.

I thought it was a good decision.

You can't always judge a decision by the eventual results: you can make a low percentage choice and, more by luck than good management, end up better off than if you had made the high percentage choice. All this means is that you were lucky, not sensible.

yes we were lucky with Thomas and sensible with lyon.

super post Joffa.

sadly Babble your having bets in all directions. Handing out theories and lectures on "how to juggle more than 1 idea" is nice...when the logic behind those arguments is wrong and simply ignores key facts it becomes the mad ramblings of a disturbed mind.

With all due respect - GT was not removed for pure football reasons alone ...you cant dismiss or ignore this as you did for your entire post and sensibly expect that logic to wash.

Sure, it suits your agenda....that I think we all know you still firmly have.

[vacuous space]

You mean even though he was a control freak (except for recruiting where he abbrogated all responsibility to JB - as told on air to B4E last year) and would not accept a restructure of the football dept and wanted to also do all the player contracts.

GT was fired without being offered any restructure, at least according to Butterss. I don't know if that's true or not, but that's at least the story. I didn't agree with it at the time, but I understand the reasoning. We wanted to go with a structure where the senior coach wasn't in charge of the list. Coaches think short-term, week-to-week, not necessarily in the long-term interests of the club. I think, more than most coaches, GT tried to look after the long-term, but he had some major flaws in his plan. His stance on the rookie list, in particular, put us at a deficit against other clubs.

Separating the coach and list management roles was a good idea. Perhaps GT should have offered a year as game day coach only, if only to spare us the cost of paying him out. I think though, if he was a lame duck coach, it was better to endure the cost and get rid of him the year earlier, move onto the next guy and get through his growing pains as soon as possible. Fans and detractors both seem to be obsessed with what might have been. I don't think it's of much importance though. We're now at a point where our list is in good shape with top end players and reasonable depth. I know I'm happy with the direction the club is headed right now.

I've warmed to Lyon considerably. I thought he was in big trouble after the Sydney game last year. He has shown though that he is adaptable and capable of learning from his mistakes, which I think is a huge thing for a coach. I think he's a much better coach today than the day he arrived at the club, which gives me optimism for the future.

[matrix]

<<quick question???

i stopped reading at the end of page one, has it turned into a GT v LYON debate yet??

[Mr Magic]

[quote="Saints43
Yet some see that season as the building block of anything good that has happened since. I don't. It was a complete waste of everyone (especially the players precious) time.

Some see the glass half empty, others see it half full.
One could argue that those early days of 'utter confusion' you saw in 2007 have translated into what we are seeing today.

The playing personnel have either accepted the gameplan or have been moved on.

The gameplan has evolved (as it needed to) to the point where it appears to be working.

I read in another post of yours that you had expectations that Mark Williams was going to be the new coach.
Maybe your critical early view on RL was in part a subconscious response to your disappointment in us not getting Williams and the false expectations fuelled by the decision to replace GT that we were 'almost there'?

I know that there was at least 1 huge philosophical difference between GT and RL as coach.
Under GT there was a steady stream of assistants going through the revolving door at Moorabbin. None of them seemed to last more than 1 year. That was either a deliberate plan by him or it showed that none of them could/would stay for more than 1 year.

Under RL we have had SOS as backline coach the whole time and I believe that his fingerprints are all over our widely recognized good defense.

Both Rock and Barker lasted 2 seasons and apparently left because they were poached by their original Clubs.

Luckily for us we have installed Leigh Tudor as Forwads coach and I think his influence is very significant but has pretty much gone unnoticed (notwithstanding RL's comments after the Adelaide game).

There seems to have been some stability in the coaching panel that wasn't there previously.

There has obviously been a major overhaul of the fitness/conditioning area of the Club under RL and that also cannot be done quickly. It took time. The prople in control of getting our players ready and onto the playing field havn't chopped and changed in the past 2 years like they did under GT.

There is a 'feeling of stability' in the support areas around the Club.

Even the 'poor Media performances' seem to have been addressed.

It's almost like there is a 'to do list' of things that needed to be corrected and one by one they are being crossed off the list.

[meher baba]

<<quick question???

i stopped reading at the end of page one, has it turned into a GT v LYON debate yet??

Sorry, I thought the whole point of the thread was GT vs RL. I assumed the OP was asking me and others who doubted the wisdom of sacking GT as to whether they have changed their mind? Sorry, must have misunderstood. Is the thread actually about something else: perhaps which coach is OMG OMG really, really HOT!

It's certainly a difficult choice. But I was always a bit of a fan of Jabba the Hut so, having managed at last to catch GT on Footy Classified last night, my vote goes to him!!

[rodgerfox]

I mean you've got posters like Rodgerfox stating that he made up his mind after 3 months about RL and started voicing publicly his fears. We hadn't even played a game yet this particular poster was prepared to call it.

You're an outright liar.

I never stated that at all.

[Mr Magic]

I mean you've got posters like Rodgerfox stating that he made up his mind after 3 months about RL and started voicing publicly his fears. We hadn't even played a game yet this particular poster was prepared to call it.

You're an outright liar.

I never stated that at all.

Oh dear.
Here we go again.

Given that I didn't quote your words but only your sentiment,
what exact words did you use you poor excuse for a fictional interrnet character.

You are so predictable.

You are a complete and utter 'footy fan'. (are you also going to deny your own description on that as well?)

Come on Rodger, let's have your weekly thoughts on why RL is no good.
Afterall, the week wouldn't be complete without them.

It must really be grating you that some are starting to 'warm' to RL as coach.

Here's your opportunity to 'get them back into line'.

[rodgerfox]

What I notice about this thread is how those who, like me, continue to believe that the decision to sack GT in 2006 was a mistake, are prepared to give credit where credit is due to the way the team is now playing under Lyon

BUT

the blinkered GT haters just go on and on with their usual nonsense about "GT ruined the list", "RL was always a genius and it was all the fault of the list and the players that we played such a crap brand of football until mid-2008", etc.


While I am now a staunch supporter of Lyon, I still consider the following facts to be indisputable.

1. The St Kilda Board sacked GT in 2006 without any firm dea of who they wanted to replace him with: the idea of getting Lyon emerged very late in the process and was - presumably - not a likely name in the minds of any members of the Board when they made the decision to sack GT.

2. Given that they did not have a premiership-winning coach like Matthews or Malthouse lined up to replace him, the decision to sack GT remains hard to fathom on football-related grounds alone. Despite serious injury problems, we made the top 4 after the home and away season for two seasons and then just missed the top 4 (arguably unfairly) in the third season. Has any coach ever been previously been sacked in the history of the game after three such seasons (I have asked this question many times on this forum, without anyone coming up with a name)?

3. The reasons given by Butterss for sacking GT did not include blaming him for our injury problems or for "ruining our list". These ideas are just fantasies in the minds of some biased posters on here.

4. The key players used by Lyon week in and week out were almost all established as key players under GT. Sure, Lyon might have played a dozen or so new players in the past 2 years. So might GT: perhaps some of you didn't notice, but we have lost Gehrig, Hamill, Thommo, Peckitt, Powell and Harvey through injury over that period. The fact is that only 4-5 of them have threated to become permanent fixtures (Schneider, King, Dempster, Jones, Gardiner). This hardly represents a major reworking of the list by any measure. Yes, we have gotten rid of a lot of players under Lyon, but relatively few of them had been first team players under GT.

5. According to News Limited, best on ground in our Rd 1 win over Sydney were "B Goddard S Gilbert S Fisher N Dal Santo J Koschitzke L Montagna F Ray". Best on ground in our Rd 2 win over Adelaide were "Dal Santo, Montagna, Koschitzke, S. Fisher, Ball, Gram, Schneider". That's a 12 out of 14 score for the St Kilda list as of September 2006!!

6. So why did we start to go better as 2008 wore on and are already looking even better this season. Two main reasons: (a) some of our key players look to be finally getting over their major injury problems (Ball, Kosi, Raph until Rd 1) and (b) as you would expect from any sort of leader who has been newly promoted to the top job at an organisation at which he or she has never previously worked, Lyon took a while to get the hang of the job.

7. To sum up, the decision to sack GT was an idiotic one that was taken by Board which - when the members got the opportunity - was rewarded by being resoundingly voted out of office. The fact that Lyon was a surprise choice to almost everyone in the AFL world means that he was a bit of a gamble, to say the least. (On the other hand, he was nowhere near as big a gamble as GT when he was appointed and yet, at least in my opinion, GT turned out really well.) Fortunately, the gamble appears to have paid off and, now that he has had sufficient time to develop into the role, Lyon now looks set to perform as least as well as GT had done and - presuming that the current Board is not going to make a similarly ridiculous decision to get rid of him while he is performing well - could perhaps take us all the way.

I know it's difficult for some of you to understand that it is possible for someone simultaneously to think that Lyon is a great coach and also that the decision to sack GT was totally wrong. Not only do I think this, but I also think that the decision to appoint GT in the first place was wrong as well. You can't always judge a decision by the eventual results: you can make a low percentage choice and, more by luck than good management, end up better off than if you had made the high percentage choice. All this means is that you were lucky, not sensible.

It's good to occasionally be reminded that not all footy followers are morons.
Good post MeherBaba. Very good post.

So many on here simply can't comprehend the concept of a balanced view.

With us, or against.
Love him, or hate him.
Pro-GT, anti-GT.
Pro-Lyon, anti-Lyon.

It seriously is the most idiotic way of thinking possible for a human being - yet we find a stagering amount of adults, all gathered here on Saintsational who think precisely like this.

If you don't hate GT - you must love him.
If you're critical of Lyon - you hate him and must love GT.

Many will still be unable to grasp what you're talking about. Which is sad for them. For the rest of us, I suppose it means the chance of being successful in life is higher due to the fact that so many of these other cretins exist.

I thought the decision to sack Thomas was wrong. So I love GT.
I thought the decision to get Lyon was a great one.
I was worried by some things that I saw in the first 3 months of the season. So I must love GT.
As late as late-2007 I was very supportive of Lyon.
As time went on, I became more critical of Lyon as a coach. So I hate Lyon and love GT.
I'm still critical of Lyon. So I hate him.
I don't think Lyon is a good head coach. So I love GT.

Just such a bizarre way of looking at the world. Pretty sad I suppose.

[rodgerfox]

I mean you've got posters like Rodgerfox stating that he made up his mind after 3 months about RL and started voicing publicly his fears. We hadn't even played a game yet this particular poster was prepared to call it.

You're an outright liar.

I never stated that at all.

Oh dear.
Here we go again.

Given that I didn't quote your words but only your sentiment,
what exact words did you use you poor excuse for a fictional interrnet character.

Just stop the lying.

If you're going to randomly make reference to me in a thread or post, don't lie.

If you can't find facts to support your views, don't simply make them up.

[rodgerfox]

I agree. GT did not ruin our list. But our list was definately in decline when he was sacked. It wasn't sunk but was beginning to flounder.

Just on that though Joffaboy...

All lists decline every year. What coaches generally do, is hold the core of key players, and tweak the rest around them.

GT had been doing this, and now Lyon has done the same thing.

Do you think that Thomas would have done a freeze on recruiting if he was still in the job? Or do you think he would have replaced the retirees?

It's been 3 years since Thomas was sacked, do people not think the list would have changed since then if he was still there? Or is the concern that he wouldn't have changed it well, or as well as people think Lyon has?

[saintsRrising]

You mean even though he was a control freak (except for recruiting where he abbrogated all responsibility to JB - as told on air to B4E last year) and would not accept a restructure of the football dept and wanted to also do all the player contracts.

GT was fired without being offered any restructure, at least according to Butterss. I don't know if that's true or not, but that's at least the story. .

I do not know what Butterss ..said.....and GT may or may not have been offered restructure in his last hours (which to me is irrelevant anyway as he had years of resisting all attempts at restructure).......but let us be clear during his time at Moorabinn he was certainly offered restructuring of the football department......but a few facts on "structure"..

1/ the St KFC wanted to transfer some of GT's responsibilities to Drain. GT refused and Drain was not hired.

2/ after the long running poor performance of our player conditioning and injury management GT demanded responsibility for this. If anything our record got worse.

Maybe, just maybe if GT (like Bomber Thompson at the Cats) had allowed his role to be narrowed to that of just coaching then he may well have stayed longer...

However like you (I think if I have understood your post correctly) I think the time of GT had passed and we needed to move on...


IMO..the era of coaches such as GT has passed....no longer does one demi-god rule the roost. Simply, no one person can have that much knowledge and expertise (let alone have enough hours in the day) to be truly exceptional at each facet....and truly exceptional is what you need to be if you want your club to be best in the land.

Some people (Thomson) can evolve with the times....some get swallowed up by them...while other emerge and prosper (Clarkson).

[Saints43]

I dont think there is any doubt your constant, negative cr@p towards Lyon with your pathetic, gutless attempts to hide behind "Ive not seen enough good yet" clearly show your only interest lies in talking the coach/club down when something goes wrong. IF you knew the meaning of the word objectivity you dimwitted girls blouse you'd also know it also calls for someone with the capacity to deliver an unbiased assessment - good and bad. In your world Lyons not done 1 thing right since hes been at the club...you just don't have the balls to say so. Sure, we are 2 games in - no one wants him put up with Yabby just yet but FFS even a half @ssed moron like you can see his approach is yielding some success.
Spare us all the "I tried to save 2 clubs but alas there was nothing I could do..." what a crock of cr@p from an internet wanna be. Seriously, more Dodgerfox stunts - there is no doubt you are him (or you nuts share a flat) your pathetic lines are very consistent. You two ever posted at the same time????

IF you had anything to do with Fitzroy I now fully understand why they went under....just going by your 'balanced' posting that is....

BTW - Im NOW at my club, pay my membership to be part of MY club....and I got some bad news for ya.....Im gonna be for sometime yet..... but you are the kind of squib that doesnt like the coach or doesnt feel 'loved" by the club so you hide your cash under you mattress...wouldnt surprise if your not a paid up member at all.LMFAO - Your being silly now. Whats new.... I'm not ashamed to say I do support Ross Lyon - Im not ashamed to say I will back him at least for his full tenure (Ive no doubt...you assessed him 3 months in and decided he was no good.....like your girlfriend Dodg... ). Sadly, again you wait in hope that he fails so you can say "look everyone I was right" as the club again spirals downward. Its sad to think that such a glorified "tin rattler" - as you sell yourself to us - doesnt have the gonads to even be objective when assessing the CURRENT coaches performance.
Thomas is gone - you need to support the current coach and move.
No you wont why lie?

You'll again, as you did in this thread, start your post listing all his failings according to you, tells us all he's done nothing and that you will support him when you see something....
Lyons made a prelim in year 2 (thats half his predecessors success already at the highest level), turned over the list considerably, got us playing tough pressure footy (this started in 2007), addressed the ruck issue with more success than anything in 5 years and addressed - finally - the fitness concerns that have haunted us for all Thomas years and cost us a flag IMHO. He's also introduced some likely kids and talent from other clubs which we are getting value from and which fill real holes (I dont think anyone would doubt that Sneider, Dempster, Attard - before injury, King, Ray,Geary, Eddy, Armitage, have helped bolster a list that was ageing and losing retiring champs with little coming through) I also think Lyons gotten many of these and given up little with perhaps Gardiner, the biggest pay off of all to come.... ....but according to you....thats not enough and.....he's done nothing in 3 years......

Its obvious you dont like the coach so maybe its time you gave ther Saints a rest and got back to your first love....which is saving destitute footy clubs. Time you got down to the Kangaroos Mother Theresa and spread some more of your clearly influential 'football administrative' nous....that ought to send them out in straight sets...

So in summary my post contained no swipe at Ross Lyon.
I never claimed to have attempted to save Fitzroy. I assisted the Club Historian because he was a mate. I asked what you did to save the club you barracked for. Nothing, clearly.
You missed the point of my statements regarding your support for Ross Lyon. While it's nice that you staunchly support the current coach (quite a new policy) it doesn't make sense to spend years defending the indefensible. Really his greatest attribute to you is that he's not Grant Thomas. That's no endorsement.

PS. Have a read of your last post (and compare it to the statements you are supposedly replying to) in this thread one day when you're sober. Will be an interesting exercise for you.

[Mr Magic]

I mean you've got posters like Rodgerfox stating that he made up his mind after 3 months about RL and started voicing publicly his fears. We hadn't even played a game yet this particular poster was prepared to call it.

You're an outright liar.

I never stated that at all.

Oh dear.
Here we go again.

Given that I didn't quote your words but only your sentiment,
what exact words did you use you poor excuse for a fictional interrnet character.

Just stop the lying.

If you're going to randomly make reference to me in a thread or post, don't lie.

If you can't find facts to support your views, don't simply make them up.

The more you protest and post epithets desn't actually make the BS you're posting any truer.

I and everybody else on this forum who read what you posted knows exactly what you posted. No matter how you now try and obfuscate it because you're embarrassed by the nonsense you posted.

I don't need to waste my time looking for your actual quote because everybody knows what you posted.
One can always tell when you've inevitably reached the point in your argument where you are exposed as a fraud by the fact that you pull out the 'you're a liar' post.

So predictable
So pathetic
So 'footy fan'
So Rodgerfox


As is this obvious attempt on your part to try and have this thread shutdown by blatantly starting a 'flame war' with another poster.

Do you really believe your methods aren't transparent to others.
Too many have you pegged by now.

[rodgerfox]

I and everybody else on this forum who read what you posted knows exactly what you posted. No matter how you now try and obfuscate it because you're embarrassed by the nonsense you posted.

Everybody should know what I posted, so why the need to lie about it?

What I posted was very clear. And it's different to what you lied about.

As is this obvious attempt on your part to try and have this thread shutdown by blatantly starting a 'flame war' with another poster.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you mentioned me in this thread. Yet you think I'm trying to start a flame war??

Strange thinking.

[Mr Magic]

I and everybody else on this forum who read what you posted knows exactly what you posted. No matter how you now try and obfuscate it because you're embarrassed by the nonsense you posted.

Everybody should know what I posted, so why the need to lie about it?

What I posted was very clear. And it's different to what you lied about.

As is this obvious attempt on your part to try and have this thread shutdown by blatantly starting a 'flame war' with another poster.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you mentioned me in this thread. Yet you think I'm trying to start a flame war??

Strange thinking.

I don't know how you can keep a straight face whilst you type this drivel?

If you have nothing to add to this particular thread why not go away and infect some other thread.

Or better still, since you've apparently lost your passion for AFL footy, why not go trawls through some other sporting forums?

Oh and BTW 'Mr Footy Fan', no matter how many times you post that false accusation of lying, it doesn't actually make it true.
It just shows how desperate you are to try and distance yourself from your original nonsensical comments.

So pathetic of you.

[joffaboy]

I agree. GT did not ruin our list. But our list was definately in decline when he was sacked. It wasn't sunk but was beginning to flounder.

Just on that though Joffaboy...

All lists decline every year. What coaches generally do, is hold the core of key players, and tweak the rest around them.

GT had been doing this, and now Lyon has done the same thing.

Do you think that Thomas would have done a freeze on recruiting if he was still in the job? Or do you think he would have replaced the retirees?

It's been 3 years since Thomas was sacked, do people not think the list would have changed since then if he was still there? Or is the concern that he wouldn't have changed it well, or as well as people think Lyon has?

Yes you are correct. List do change every year. Taking in isolation the quote above can seem a little trite. Taking in context of the whole post I think it is reasonable.

If GT remained coach the list would have changed - of course it would. Probably would have taken the same young dps as well.

The real issue is the philosophy in taking recycled players for dp's. We got Birss and Gardiner for #43, Schneider and Dempster for #26, Ray for #34 (I think) and King and Gardiner for #90. On C.Gardiner has been a real failure, Birss was unluck, and the rest are showing promise.

I am sure GT would not have selected King and M Gardiner and not sure if he would have gone for the others.

I think you also have an issue inthe way you believe Lyon is developing the young draftees we have and that in your opinion, Gt was better. I find that a reasonable POV. We have had some small successes with Geary and Eddy and Armo, but the others haven't come on as yet.

Mabye it is a combo of where the lists were when the respective coaches took over. GT had to fast track the kids and our performances suffered accordingly until late 2003. Lyon had a core group of 12 players from about 23-26 y.o. whom he could pick without looking at and doesn't have the same pressure to bring in the kids early like GT had to.

Time will tell I suppose. Anyway we cant know what decisions Gt would have made because he was removed before the 2007 season so the argument will always be hypothetical.

Your point on this ridiculous notion that if you like GT you must hate Lyon and vica versa is one of the most sensible points in the whole thread.

I liked some things both coaches do and did and I dislike some things. What is this? A cult of personality? Really they are only coaches and coaches are vastly overrated on forums like these.

[Saints43]

The gameplan has evolved (as it needed to) to the point where it appears to be working.

I agree with a lot of that post except for the statement above. I don't believe the gamplan has evolved. I see them as gameplan 1 (2007), gameplan 2 (2008) and gameplan 3 (2008). To me they have all been very, very different.

I don't think there are many who would not say that things look to be improving in most areas at the club. But I would qualify that with saying that some areas are starting from quite a low base.

And I'm not sure on the assistant coach tenures...

[gringo]

I am a saints fan that has been through it all before- seeing Sheldon sacked and Alves go when neither where going too bad.

I saw out Watson and Blight with a clenched jaw wishing we had Bombers style stability. When we got Thommo I came around because at least he seemed to really have our best interests at heart.

But the Butterss and Thommo show was threatening to be destabilizing. I thought the board had shot themselves in the foot appointing lyon.

The list had a small window open with Gehrig getting to the end and peckett, powell etc going. It takes awhile to adjust to new game plans and I didn't see us having a spare season.

Im happy to admit now that I probably underrated Ross. He has put in a game plan that does not rely on the stars to win games. Sydney was no where near as talented as the west coast team at its best but the discipline and grit strangled teams natural style.

Sydney seemed to get over this and has started to do more attacking.IMO the hawks saw off Geelong with a very disciplined game and everyone thinks Clarkson invented defensive game-plans.

Crawford says that the defensive structure took along time to perfect and I believe it is the same with us.

Our structure is now more robust and can interchange players who all have a role to play not just the star players. I hope that we have it together and can sustain it like sydney could.

So summing up I am cautiously optimistic and believe that I am now able to see Lyons big picture that was all a bit hard to see through another round of club turmoil -if he wins us a flag I'll pretend I always backed him and loved him.